TB

[Elad]

You are in a good place. Continue really exploring: What is seemingly the "I" making things happen ? How is it imagined in real time ?

AND as opposed to this imagined experience that feels real because habitually believed...


What is actually there in direct experience ? Where do thoughts and actions come from in real time direct experience ?


Do this exercise also:


Mind labelling experience


Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes
about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any
bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a
computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just
a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this
time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using
verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again,
watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was
labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Does the labeling activity change what is there in direct experience and being described?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[ThomasBurdic]

Yes it’s quite clear that this “Me” sense controlling the body,
Is associated with this sense of ‘here-ness’: persistent sensations in the chest/torso. and a sense of agency that latches itself onto every action/thought etc.
and that constantly there’s this “affirming” of this sense of me/here-ness and it creates some sensations in the torso area each time, along with subtle thoughts appearing very quickly.
Because thoughts arise often affirming this sense/belief either implicitly or explicitly


In direct experience, it’s still unclear. I can see that a lot of actions coming from interactions between subtle impulses, thoughts, intentions that arise quite quickly and subtly. So it isn’t clear that there’s “me” who’s in control of that. I will keep doing this exploration.

As I’ve done the ‘I do’ vs ‘doing’ exercise,
I’ve noticed that, for example if I think “breathing/seeing” rather than “I breathe, I see” etc.. there is some subtle feelings that arise in the body. Sort of pleasant feeling. Which is interesting.

And that on the other hand when the “I do/I think/I sit” thought happens, there is a subtle feeling of ‘here-ness’ which again affirms that “me” sense in the body sensations.
Affirming that sense of “consciousness” of “Me” as the observer and agent

[Elad]

Good!

Now this is important: Here/there, me/you these are useful concepts for normal life, we could not function without them. If you lost the sense of me/you here/there you would not be functional. This is not about making this sense go away. It is about seeing clearly that neither "here" nor "me" refers to an objective self existing real thing. Rather they are only concepts that make sense in particular contexts of thinking and communication. You see this by seeing that it all happens by itself, including the sense of me/you here/there etc. Look to see that in direct experience beyond doubt. Me and here are only concepts that refer to nothing permanent and independent and only make sense in contexts of communication.


The peace you felt describing without me is a pointer..... The body reacts with peace when simplicity and direct experience is acknowledged and accepted.

Here are some exercises for you:

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body
get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really
happens. “Can you see a self making the body leave the bed?”

2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple. Is there self deciding?

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where
you choose to fall asleep?

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next
thought that will arise?

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction
etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at
what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion
that appeared in response to a stimulus?

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is
made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

8. Go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. What created the decision to bring that object? A self deciding anywhere?

9. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control? What moves attention? Describe what you see.

[ThomasBurdic]

Yes I agree that in all of these cases, it isnt clear that there is a controlling “me” doing it/deciding it. It’s like experiences arise like impulses, emotions, memories, and the body is processing and reacting to this with apparent decisions.
But It is simply unclear and still this persistent “Me” belief that keeps recurring.
I will continue with this inquiry every day until i come to a place of ‘without a doubt’.

[Elad]

Hi Tom,


Ok, so sounds like it is clear for you that no self standing outside of things and controlling things is found, but then you doubt it or you expect it should feel different?


Could you instead turn this doubt on the belief that you know how you feel and if it is felt or not, what it really is you feel? Can you turn the doubt on the doubt? Can you feel into what is already here and already seen really freshly, without believing "a me who already knows that things are as always/not it" or "a me who fails"?


Here is an exercise for you:

Watch the following video.


https://youtu.be/v2UnnObWkgw?si=TLNv8qVGE2G4twX2


As you watch it, experience what happens. Notice/experience if something is trying to (or there is an activity of trying to) get what is said or have an experience of recognition, is agreeing or disagreeing, liking or disliking, feeing it is getting it or not feeling is getting it, is having a sense of self while listening or not... Do not try to make any of these go away. Do not put emphasis on if you get/got it or not, agree or not, like it or not. Instead, have emphasis on experiencing all that and whatever else is happening, and SEE: It all happens spontaneously and naturally, without any self outside of it in control of it or owning it.

Let me know how it goes.

[ThomasBurdic]

Sorry for the slow replies I’ve been very busy the past couple weeks.
Yes i guess the doubt could be another form of defence mechanism/denial that would make sense!
I guess there’s an expectation of some “aha” moment where it becomes very clear beyond doubt..

That’s why I doubt it. Because the sense of doership/me very habitually gets reaffirmed constantly, along with the very me-feeling body sensations.. so there’s clearly not an “Aha”

When I watch that video, like you mentioned there’s lots of activity of trying to “get it” and I sense that there’s some attempts of my mind to start a new belief system of “there’s no me/controller”.
But I do see how this is very much a sticky belief. Like yes- when looking directly, it seems almost clear that there isn’t a controller/doer/thinker etc. but this very sticky belief keeps reaffirming itself constantly and making this feel very cloudy/foggy/doubtful.
But I also recognise that just because these sensations are here, and this sticky belief, that isn’t evidence that there is in fact a “me”.

I will just continue with simple looking.

[Elad]

Sorry for the slow replies I’ve been very busy the past couple weeks.

Got it. You might gently look into what that says about what your deepest motivations are about. Not assuming anything here... Just, to be honest about what is truly deeply wanted is part of this process. And what is truly deeply wanted tends to reflect in behavior, although it can play out in all kinds of funny ways. Just be with it try to be super honest with yourself and kind. And tell me about it if you want.

Yes i guess the doubt could be another form of defence mechanism/denial that would make sense!
I guess there’s an expectation of some “aha” moment where it becomes very clear beyond doubt..

guess guess guess guess .....

That’s why I doubt it. Because the sense of doership/me very habitually gets reaffirmed constantly, along with the very me-feeling body sensations.. so there’s clearly not an “Aha”

Whatever is saying that now, does that have the aha quality? Can that be trusted?

When I watch that video, like you mentioned there’s lots of activity of trying to “get it” and I sense that there’s some attempts of my mind to start a new belief system of “there’s no me/controller”.

Good noticing.

But I do see how this is very much a sticky belief. Like yes- when looking directly, it seems almost clear that there isn’t a controller/doer/thinker etc. but this very sticky belief keeps reaffirming itself constantly and making this feel very cloudy/foggy/doubtful.

How does it do that and how does it feel in direct experience? Not asking for your story about it when you are thinking about yourself. Look.

But I also recognise that just because these sensations are here, and this sticky belief, that isn’t evidence that there is in fact a “me”.

Yes a fair bit of intellectual clarity. What is REALLY going on emotionally?



Letting you know I will be on retreat around Sep 20-26 and in that period will not be available to respond here. We can still have at least one more exchange here before, if you respond within a day or so, and I can then give instructions for that period.

[ThomasBurdic]

Yes I would say that I have two “modes” where, there is a part of me which is sincerely motivated and interested in awakening. Then there is the very habitual mode of my brain which gets sucked in and complacent with daily stuff and distractions and then can forget about awakening. And only cares about feeling comfortable in the current moment.
My life’s like a back and forth between these two modes of thinking and behaving.

So with these responses are you suggesting that these thoughts that come up like “it’s foggy, unclear, no aha” etc.. are just thoughts framing what’s happening, and that I should basically ignore those and return to what’s directly happening ? And not expect an ‘aha’?

[Elad]

Yes I would say that I have two “modes” where, there is a part of me which is sincerely motivated and interested in awakening. Then there is the very habitual mode of my brain which gets sucked in and complacent with daily stuff and distractions and then can forget about awakening. And only cares about feeling comfortable in the current moment.
My life’s like a back and forth between these two modes of thinking and behaving.

Good to be aware of. Maybe especially the wanting to feel comfortable -so natural. And often can be experienced as opposed to the direction of feeling and seeing what is actually here without reactivity.

So with these responses are you suggesting that these thoughts that come up like “it’s foggy, unclear, no aha” etc.. are just thoughts framing what’s happening,

I am not saying they are in every sense wrong, but yes, I get the sense that for you these descriptions can be part of a comfortable staying emotionally/motivationally disengaged status quo that perpetuates itself. (And don't ask for mind explanation of what to do about it - its how you FEEL about it, NOW, and what that motivates naturally, that makes a difference.

and that I should basically ignore those and return to what’s directly happening ? And not expect an ‘aha’?

Do you WANT seeing what is here and what is not, if self is there, MORE then attending to content of your thoughts about how it feels and how it is supposed to feel?


Here are two exercises you can work with in the following week:


Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you
can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct
experience) and report back how you go. You can do that in any situation, when nothing else calls for full attention.


And here is another exercise, you can alternate between them...


Finding the Gap

This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as
they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to
look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least
10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes
and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a
pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better
things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought
passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a
few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as
possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and
just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two
thoughts.
Let me know how you go.



Finally:

Sometimes you can drop it all and actively say, for the next x minutes (say 2, 5, 10, 15) I do not intend for anything to happen, no actions, no insights, no experiences, and also not the avoidance of any actions, insight or experiences... And then just see what happens by itself. Can also work well doing the same, just with the restriction of sitting in a meditation posture.


Good luck!

[ThomasBurdic]

Great thank you I’ll work with this for the next week, have a good retreat!

[ThomasBurdic]

Hi elad,

Hope you had a nice retreat!

The labelling exercise, this definitely brings attention to the non-solidity of different forms of experience. Like it brings attention to how vision is literally just images, while thoughts sort of abstract solidity out of it. Same with sound, and sensation etc. like these are all sort of unnameable substance appearing.
But the thoughts come in very habitually building a “mental map” of it.

And with the thought-gap exercise, yes I find this quite difficult! As a lot of my thoughts are very subtle I think. So as I sit looking waiting for the next thought, it’s like, even that ‘waiting for a thought’ is formed into a subtle thought.
I see how thoughts are so intertwined with body sensations and perceptions that it’s difficult to perceive difference between actual direct body sense, and thoughts. Like subtle thoughts overlaying different body sensations.

But I also notice that when doing this thought gap exercise, the same as with the labelling exericse you suggested, it brings attention to the direct “thought-substance” that thoughts are made of. Like when I actuslly look at the “thought stuff” space, it’s very much this nameless substance similarly.
But yes this discerning between thoughts and direct senses is something that needs to be sharpened.

[Elad]

Hi I'm back :)

The labelling exercise, this definitely brings attention to the non-solidity of different forms of experience. Like it brings attention to how vision is literally just images, while thoughts sort of abstract solidity out of it. Same with sound, and sensation etc. like these are all sort of unnameable substance appearing.
But the thoughts come in very habitually building a “mental map” of it.

Good noticing.

And with the thought-gap exercise, yes I find this quite difficult! As a lot of my thoughts are very subtle I think. So as I sit looking waiting for the next thought, it’s like, even that ‘waiting for a thought’ is formed into a subtle thought.
I see how thoughts are so intertwined with body sensations and perceptions that it’s difficult to perceive difference between actual direct body sense, and thoughts. Like subtle thoughts overlaying different body sensations.

Good noticing.

Try this. Sit with a piece of paper and make a mark on it every time you notice a new thought. Don't be perfectionistic, don't make it about "getting them all", instead be playful and curious in attitude, aim to steadily register "the next thought", or "the next thought that was not noticed". Try doing this several times for short periods, like 3-5 minutes, see what happens and let me know.

But I also notice that when doing this thought gap exercise, the same as with the labelling exericse you suggested, it brings attention to the direct “thought-substance” that thoughts are made of. Like when I actuslly look at the “thought stuff” space, it’s very much this nameless substance similarly.

Right and the "I" that is looking, what is it made of? Is it anything more then another thought?

But yes this discerning between thoughts and direct senses is something that needs to be sharpened.

This is just a thought that creates a belief in a seeker who is not yet capable of insight. Drop this evaluating mind of yours (can you see the arrogance/foolishness of simulatneously claiming "I am not awake and do not see" and taking the role as the one who can evaluate where you are at and what you lack?) and instead just explore curiously, openly, follow the questions I give, without holding on to a fantasy of you knowing where "you are" in the process.

[ThomasBurdic]

Yes the exercise of “waiting for next thought” definintly makes it more clear how thoughts are just appearing by themselves involuntarily, because the stance of “waiting” for the next one sort of brings me out of that flow of feeling entangled in the thought streams.

Also, yes with the “I” that is seeing the thought-substance,

This sense of there being an “I” who is seeing or experiencing this, is sort of vague
Looking directly there, I do see how it is something that is beleived strongly - that there is this me subject who is seeing the thoughts. Kind of projected into this sense of a position behind the eyes/chest. And there are thoughts which appear which are sort of imagining this position in a way.

But it does still feel convincing

[Elad]

But it does still feel convincing

How does the voice/feeling sound that says this? Passionate? Desperate? Luke-warm? Detached-matter-of-factly?

Investigate this in direct experience in real time, repeating the sentence.

This is just a thought that creates a belief in a seeker who is not yet capable of insight. Drop this evaluating mind of yours (can you see the arrogance/foolishness of simulatneously claiming "I am not awake and do not see" and taking the role as the one who can evaluate where you are at and what you lack?) and instead just explore curiously, openly, follow the questions I give, without holding on to a fantasy of you knowing where "you are" in the process.

What was your reaction and takeway from that?



Watch the following video and let me know what actually happens and is experienced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2g4qaDGpTU

[ThomasBurdic]

“How does the voice/feeling sound that says this? Passionate? Desperate? Luke-warm? Detached-matter-of-factly?
Investigate this in direct experience in real time, repeating the sentence.”

I would say there’s like a subtle ‘emotional pay off’ feeling of certainty, like “yes this is just how it is.”. Sort of like a ‘stalling’ where it just seems like this is a brick wall, of uncertainty. That it doesn’t seem clear that I could see the truth of this.


“What was your reaction and takeway from that?”

Yes there is a habitual sense of trying to track “am I doing this right?”. And lack of confidence in ability to see the illusion I guess. Like maybe seeing this truth is easy but I just can’t get the ‘trick’. I see what you mean about that being another thought framing experience again, that’s being believed.

“Watch the following video and let me know what actually happens and is experienced”
There was a sense of desire to comprehend fully what she was saying in regards to insight. Random thoughts coming up.
Also agreement with the expectations. I do feel I understand that this is simply about what is ALREADY the case. And this then means it’s not about getting some new mystical experience etc. it’s not special in that sense. I feel I accept that. Although the subtle anticipation of an “aha” moment is arising throughout watching. Because recognition is not currently present therefore there is a change to come.