Reading “Liberation Unleashed” - had some questions

[BarBarryN]

Good evening Vince,

I spent some time mulling over what you wrote and reread the post several times.

It took me a while to understand what you were saying and even now when I reread it there is a bit more that I see.

I spent more time in that meditative state of just seeing and have concluded that, truly, there is no glass until my mind notes that there is a glass. It’s there as object and maybe not even that.

But that realization is so simple isn’t it?

Of course, there is no recognition of it being a glass because that recognition happens in thought; it takes the mind to interpret it as a glass. And that’s with all things isn’t it? Me saying that’s a dog, or that’s a cloud, or that’s a car is all things the mind is noting. If I didn’t speak English it would be named something altogether. Back to the if a tree falls in the woods… again it’s the mind saying that’s a tree, it’s falling, and this is the sound it makes.

Can we have a direct experience of a self, or is self a concept to describe our unique responses?

We cannot have a direct experience of a self because self exists solely in the mind—just as a glass, and dog, and love, and green, and everything else exists solely in the mind. I‘m now wondering if we can even have direct experience of anything. Touching the keys of my keyboard feels like it’s direct experience but if there is no mind activity I’m not sure it’s could even be called “touching”.

But still… there is doubt. It’s like the illusion is known, but it has not been dropped at the level of perception.

Sending thanks,

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry, Boy you are spot on with this post. Now all that is needed is to see the consequences of what you have recognized.

I‘m now wondering if we can even have direct experience of anything.

Did you see that any direct experience that might happen is fleeting. The mind arrives milliseconds after and overlays it with whatever it is conditioned to do. Stories, explanations, descriptions, etc. The nature of these is habitual, but what waking up is about is changing their nature.
This happens because we see that nobody else can walk in our shoes. Just as we can't walk in an others.
Everything is a creation of this organism, so I can no longer claim to know anything. Even my own experience will be explained differently in time.

self exists solely in the mind

That's where the story of a self exists. The way that we respond to the different bits of it add up to a 'personality'. (Another concept to express our uniqueness.)

But still… there is doubt

Ah yes. We all (I think) experience doubts in the early days. i know that I did. But remember this; those doubts are just thought stories. The only purpose that they serve is to keep the mind busy. It abhors quietness.

the illusion is known, but it has not been dropped at the level of perception.

It will. It's inescapable.
If self is a concept, if control is a concept, if choice is a concept, if the only thing that is actual is your experiencing, and even that is interpreted according to conditioning, then what/who is running the show?

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Good morning, Vince.
Sorry for the delay in response. These answers seem to be taking more time to arise… especially your last question:

If self is a concept, if control is a concept, if choice is a concept, if the only thing that is actual is your experiencing, and even that is interpreted according to conditioning, then what/who is running the show?

I don’t know. It still feels like I am running the show 99.9% of the time. When the mind is dropped and just seeing, just experience this question isn’t even asked. There are no questions in fact… another obvious realization.

These realizations though, are happening in the mind, after the seeing. During the seeing there is nothing but the raw experience.

I wrote out much more about this… but it’s a lot of labeling and mind stuff and questioning, etc.

But simply, all realizations happen after the experience… and my aim is to have the mother of all realizations… the realization that there is no self… that will come after the raw experience of no self. Is that correct?

Did you see that any direct experience that might happen is fleeting. The mind arrives milliseconds after and overlays it with whatever it is conditioned to do. Stories, explanations, descriptions, etc.

Oh yes. Very fleeting. I know direct experience is always there (that is conceptual, I realize) but the mind is incessant. Hyper focus drops the mind for milliseconds and then the mind is back noting, dictating, making stories.

The nature of these is habitual, but what waking up is about is changing their nature.

Can you elaborate? Or will it be seen in time? Right now it feels like it takes a lot of energy to get into this hyper focus state to see this direct experience / to drop the mind from the constant dictation.

Thank you for your guidance.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

'evening Barry,

Sorry for the delay in response. These answers seem to be taking more time to arise…

No worries. Take as long as you need. (just don't go back to sleep on me)

It still feels like I am running the show 99.9% of the time.

Of course it FEELS like it. How much consideration is required for you to realize that this is an illusion?

the raw experience of no self.

How can you experience something that doesn't exist?

and my aim is to have the mother of all realizations… the realization that there is no self… that will come after the raw experience of no self. Is that correct?

Sorry, but that is not likely to happen. Those that do have an epiphany with bells and whistles usually come down with doubt thoughts anyway.

Right now it feels like it takes a lot of energy to get into this hyper focus state to see this direct experience

Yes, but you only need to get there to see what it shows you. It's impossible to stay there. Humans are not built for it.

to drop the mind from the constant dictation.

Harsh reality... you will never stop the mind from it's ceaseless chattering. What will happen is that you will get better at not engaging with it. Let it do it's thing, but like the hum of the refrigerator, put it in the background.
This will take practice, but once you realize that any useful thought will make itself known to you, then you can let the 99.9% of crap just flow through.

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hello Vince,
Thank you for your patience while helping me. I spent the weekend on a little trip snowshoeing – it’s nice to get out in nature again. Been cooped up in the house, behind screens for too long.

It still feels like I am running the show 99.9% of the time.

Of course it FEELS like it. How much consideration is required for you to realize that this is an illusion?

I don’t know. I thought it would be more effortless to see through the illusion… or some ah-ha moment… which I now know may never come.

the raw experience of no self.

How can you experience something that doesn't exist?

No self doesn’t exist? I thought about this for a while.
It’s the absence of self… which I suppose isn’t a thing at all. I can experience the absence of self for such a short period of time. Much like holding my breath but that doesn’t mean there isn’t breath. I believe there is no self. I need more than belief though. I’ve seen what I’ll call glimpses but nothing to shatter the illusion.

Sending thanks.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

Thank you for your patience while helping me.

I don't experience being patient (or being impatient) So, now worries. i have no concerns about an end result. The only way that it won't happen is if you quit.

I thought it would be more effortless to see through the illusion…

Ok, let's get this straight. The human organism will always see any illusion. Even knowing that it is a trick, that it is illusory, what will be perceived by the bodily senses will look like something that it's not.
So will you ever not feel like there is a self making decisions, being responsible, choosing, doing stuff? No!
When you believed that these things were actual, you were deluded.
Now that you know that they aren't actual, you see illusions.
How much time does it take when you examine any of these to recognize that they are your senses fooling you?

or some ah-ha moment… which I now know may never come.

There will be some smaller Aha moments, but a big one where you suddenly change is not likely.
This is because you have been working on this stuff for a long time and it isn't new for you. ..and let me tell you, those that do have a dramatic epiphany will face doubts within a couple of weeks anyway. (in my experience)
Your doubts are already here. Are they more than habitual thoughts?

It’s the absence of self… which I suppose isn’t a thing at all.

Consider how difficult it is to describe what is contained in a hole (in the ground). Try describing what is inside the walls of that hole without mentioning the walls.
Barry, on Sunday (10am London time) there is a zoom meeting. I'm inviting you to attend. You might find it interesting or even helpful. Third weekend of every month
Saturday 19th Feb 6 pm-8 pm British time,
Sunday, 20th Feb 10 am-12 am British time
You can join both days or one depending your time zone.
The meetings will be led by Liberation Unleashed guides.
No agenda, no promises or expectations, just being and sharing together.
Here is a link to join
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853...

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

..and here is the passcode:
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853?pw ... BoUUNwUT09

Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4\

v

[BarBarryN]

Thank you Vince,
I will be joining the Saturday time slot.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

I will be joining the Saturday time slot.

Good one Barry. the Sunday meet suits my timezone.
Post here what you get out of it, please.

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hi Vincent.

Thank you for adding me to the zoom meeting it was a very good experience. I wasn't sure what to expect but was very happy / surprised in finding that most on the call had already passed through the gate-- there were only a few of us that had not yet... which I now understand the purpose of the call, lol.

The biggest nugget I took away was:
After some discussion I asked to simplify how you "search for a self" because I had the realization that perhaps the way I search is different / not helpful compared to how others search and I think it was Sandra who said (paraphrasing) "it's simply looking around like you would look for your keys. You search your immediate surroundings for a self."

Of course I don't see a self out here and then she said, "If someone were to cut me in half lengthwise I'm fairly certain they wouldn't find a self in there either". I had one of those "duh" moments.

When I search for a self I do it like a meditation, I look inward because that's where the self feels like it would be, but all I can find are thoughts of the self pretending to be the self. There is nothing inside except thoughts and space and the occasional feeling.

So there is no self outside and there is no self inside so there is no self. period. I know this but still I feel exactly the same.

Maybe this is it. But I don't see any more "clarity" or feel a unity with things. Still feel very separate which I know is a feeling that arises, perhaps the feeling of unity will arise.

I know there is no self, though I don't know how that leads to non-duality.

A little digging...
"Things" arise all on their own. There is no owner or self making said things arise. It feels like there is an I that is perceiving all this but again if you cut me in half like Sandra said there wouldn't be a "I" in there... unless of course you count the brain since it's the one responsible for the perceiving to happen / responsible for all the senses to function.

It's in the brain / mind that all of this is taking place, where the I is created, it's where the color red is created, and the object "cup" is created. It's where "friend" is created and "college" and "trust". Is it the labeling that creates the separate?

Not sure where to go from here.

Sending appreciation,

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

so there is no self. period. I know this but still I feel exactly the same.

Ha yes. Of course you do. ..but now you know that those feelings are promulgated by illusions. You are no longer deluded by beliefs.
Now that you have fallen through the 'no self' portal, what are the ramifications for your daily lifeing? What other delusions have become illusions?
If there isn't a self running the show, how do things happen?
What is Truth?
Is responsibility really a thing?
If choice is an illusion, how does thought make it seem actual?
Why is decision an illusion?
Is NOW a time between past and future?
Is past and future actual?

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry, i have been watching the videos of the 2 zoom meetups. (I'm about an hour into each so far) It's really interesting & a little amazing the different perspectives between the forum and the visual/audible.
i had resisted guiding by zoom (except for these meetups) up till now as I believed the forum allowed time for things to sink in. To be reread. To be able to consider, to reflect before responding. i thought that the immediacy of face to face meant that an important sentence could pass without impact.
Your input in the meeting showed me that there is great value in this kind of interaction. That both together would be more impactful.
With this in mind, I'm thinking to organize a meetup with all of the ones that I'm guiding at the moment. Almost all of you have one foot through the gate, and a final push would do it.
Trying to find a time when the different time zones can coincide is the difficult part.
i will put it to the others and come back to you on this.

vince

[BarBarryN]

Good afternoon Vince,
Took me a while to get back to you. Below are my responses.
Even though I've fallen through the "no self portal" -- no change to the experience.

Now that you have fallen through the 'no self' portal, what are the ramifications for your daily lifeing?

No ramifications as of yet.

What other delusions have become illusions?

None as of yet.

If there isn't a self running the show, how do things happen?

Things just happen.

What is Truth?

A concept, an idea, a thought. We have things close to truths—things we can experience through our immediate senses yet I don’t even think those should be counted on… yet it’s the best we have, I suppose.

Is responsibility really a thing?

Also a concept. Used solely in communication—you have a responsibility to x and y.

If choice is an illusion, how does thought make it seem actual?

It feels like the “me thoughts” have the choice. I made the choice to finally respond to you but in reality, responding to you appeared.

Why is decision an illusion?

There is no self to make a decision.

Is NOW a time between past and future?

No. Past and future are concepts. They can only be experienced as thoughts. Even NOW is a concept—it points to what is happening.

Is past and future actual?

No. Concepts.

Looking forward to further discussion and a zoom meetup.

Sending thanks

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Look for PM re Sunday meetup

v

[vinceschubert]

check for PM

v