Reading “Liberation Unleashed” - had some questions

[BarBarryN]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this in concept only. I’m still having trouble seeing this. I’m following along with the e-book (half way through) and can’t seem to see this as others on the book have. When I look for myself in the body I can pin point it to something usually behind my eyes. I can move this thing… I guess it could be called awareness… around and feel

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for the truth. I feel like I’m stuck in my head constantly. Time flies and all I did was think about something for like 4 hours. I feel like I’m missing the sweetness of life. I know life is a gift and I want to experience it as such.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to learn something - to feel some openness. Reading the conversations on the books were helpful yet it seemed just a few paragraphs back and forth and they understood it. Maybe it was edited for length but I don’t expect it to be THAT easy.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been seeking for about 2 years now. I used to dabble in meditation for about 5 years but the last 2 have been pretty consistent. I had a marijuna induced panic attack about 3 years ago. I literally thought I was going to die. When I accepted it everything I thought I needed to do or say or things I wanted or fears just fell away. It was a huge moment of acceptance and clarity. That moment I started seeking for what that was. Lead me to many places.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Turnip]

Hi there! I'm Tim and I'd be happy to help guide you a little further on if you'd like that. :)

everything I thought I needed to do or say or things I wanted or fears just fell away

A powerful glimpse! What if there never was an 'I' in the first place to need things or to say things? What if there was no 'me' in control?

Tell me what that brings up for you now.
What do you think might change for you if you saw through the illusory separate self?
How might life change?

Just before we get stuck into this, please have a quick look at:
1. How to use the quote function.
2. FAQ about LU.
3. The LU disclaimer.

If you're happy with that, let's get going!

With warm wishes

Tim

PS What would you like to be called and what time zone are you in? I'm in the UK on GMT+1.

[BarBarryN]

Hello Tim!
Thank you for responding and being my guide. I happily accept your guidance :)

as for your questions:

What if there never was an 'I' in the first place to need things or to say things? What if there was no 'me' in control?
Tell me what that brings up for you now.

I believe this is true, but I don't have any direct experience that this is true. I understand that with my mind but when I think that there is no I, I immediately go to the senses in my body. I can feel things, the fingers on the keyboard, the clicking of the keys in my ears and this makes me wonder how that is possible. If there is no I then who is typing? who is answering this question? Who is having thoughts and emotions? But... still... I believe it's possible that there is no I. There is a part of me that doesn't trust the mind. Like in the past I've caught it in lies or telling stories... I've witnessed glimpses.

What do you think might change for you if you saw through the illusory separate self?

I hope to gain clarity... seeing things for how they really are. Maybe a sense of dropping something heavy.

How might life change?

Being more present in the now. Less getting tangled in my thoughts.

PS What would you like to be called and what time zone are you in? I'm in the UK on GMT+1.

You can call me Barry and I live in the US EST (GMT-5 I believe?)




I am going away this weekend so if I don't respond right away I will as soon as I get back.

Thank you for your kindness

Barry

[Turnip]

Hi Barry

Good to hear from you and thanks for letting me know you may be away for a couple of days. It's generally helpful to post most days to keep the momentum going but of course this isn't always possible and that's fine.

A quick look at your hopes/expectations:

Maybe a sense of dropping something heavy.

Certainly a lot of people report feeling generally lighter after seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

I hope to gain clarity... seeing things for how they really are.

This carries an implication of understanding what's going on. Good luck with that!! ;-)

Being more present in the now.

There's nowhere else other than now.

Less getting tangled in my thoughts.

We'll have a look at thoughts as part of this process.

I believe this is true, but I don't have any direct experience that this is true. I understand that with my mind but when I think that there is no I, I immediately go to the senses in my body. I can feel things, the fingers on the keyboard, the clicking of the keys in my ears and this makes me wonder how that is possible. If there is no I then who is typing? who is answering this question? Who is having thoughts and emotions? But... still... I believe it's possible that there is no I. There is a part of me that doesn't trust the mind. Like in the past I've caught it in lies or telling stories... I've witnessed glimpses.

Thanks for this report. It seems as if sensations are leading to confirmation of a separate 'I' so lets look at this with a few exercises. There are no right or wrong answers here, all we need is curiosity to look freshly, openly and honestly at what is happening. Analysis is best avoided and I recommend not looking at books or videos or anything else that might get in the way of looking.

1. Sit down and close your eyes and listen for a minute or two and tell me what arises. Report as precisely as you can on what is heard, where the sounds are experienced.

2. Now do the same but with physical sensations.

3. See if you can find the one who hears and has sensations.

Don't take all of this too seriously, enjoy it, we've got as long as it takes.

Have a great weekend and we'll catch up later.

With best wishes

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hello Tim.
Hope you are well.

Thank you for your responses.

1. Sit down and close your eyes and listen for a minute or two and tell me what arises. Report as precisely as you can on what is heard, where the sounds are experienced.

I hear the hum of the AC unit running. This sound is coming form outside the body. Very strange that I have never noticed this before. looking inward but unable to tell where this is happening. Birds outside my window chirping. Clicking of the keys from the keyboard. A vehicle passing on the road outside. More air conditioner more birds. The sounds are outside my body.

More hum of the air conditioner. The clicking of the keyboard. Birds outside. Still the continuous hum of the air conditioner. Still the clicking and still the birds. I notice the sounds coming from their sources. The air conditioner behind me and the birds at the window in front of me.

2. Now do the same but with physical sensations.

Fingers on a keyboard. Jaw clenched and then released. Touch of cool water bottle. Weight in my hand holding the bottle. Resistance on the cap when unscrewing and then release. Coldness to the lips and then tingling when it touches water. Water in the mouth— no flavor only coolness. A swallow. Some gurgling in the stomach. It is being perceived also noticing thoughts while I type. A dictation. Just as I type it’s reading what words are being typed. Breathing. Chest moving. A thought comes but it is not a physical sensation and probably not part of the exercise.

3. See if you can find the one who hears and has sensations.

Searching inside I can’t pinpoint a hearer or one who has the sensations but if I put headphones on the sound is dulled, of course. The volume is turned down and muted… still though unable to find a listener. There feels to be something small like roaming eyes that can view (or feel) all this.

Yes, it feels like a pair of roaming eyes in the body. Something that gets directed. Move to the lips and report the sensation. Move to the finger tips and report the sensation, move to the breath and report, etc. Yet when I look for the one that is directing these roaming eyes I can’t find anything. Much like trying to see the back of my own head.

I will continue these exercises this weekend and I will also be checking the board. Very intrigued.

Thank you for your patience and guidance while I unravel this.

-Barry

[Turnip]

Very strange that I have never noticed this before.

Great start Barry! There should be a lot of this going on. :)

I hear the hum of the AC unit running.

OK, look more closely at this and look at what you wrote. Is the experience of the sound really 'the hum of the AC unit running' or is it just an experience of a sound and a thought around about the same time? At what point does 'I' take ownership of it?

It is being perceived also noticing thoughts while I type. A dictation. Just as I type it’s reading what words are being typed.

Good observation. This is one to look at often. What order do things happen in? Keep checking. Is there an 'I' that types? Where is this 'I'.

Searching inside I can’t pinpoint a hearer or one who has the sensations

Yes, it feels like a pair of roaming eyes in the body. Something that gets directed. Move to the lips and report the sensation. Move to the finger tips and report the sensation, move to the breath and report, etc. Yet when I look for the one that is directing these roaming eyes I can’t find anything. Much like trying to see the back of my own head.

Good looking! See how eager the mind is to look for and to offer explanations for everything as well.
Notice the breathing. Are 'you' breathing or is breathing just happening?

Take a while to look at these things over the weekend. It gets more interesting and seemingly strange the more you look. :)

Report back when you're ready.

With love

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hello Tim,
Hope this message finds you well.
I woke up this morning with a deep gratitude for your help. Thank you for your patience and time.

OK, look more closely at this and look at what you wrote. Is the experience of the sound really 'the hum of the AC unit running' or is it just an experience of a sound and a thought around about the same time?

It’s raining today and attempting the exercises again.
Rain hitting concrete. Keys clicking. Experience of a sound. All experiences happening. The “dictation thought” comes as I type. Cars on the road appear and then gone. The dictation also an experience appearing. Gone when not typing. Sounds and then thought about the sound. Interesting....

At what point does 'I' take ownership of it?

Not sure I fully understand. I don’t feel like I does take ownership of the sound. Unless you’re referring to the one having the experience, the I having the experience?
Hard to pinpoint that. Looking. Sounds appear. Breathing. Appears and then disappears. Sense an I. I typing.. Yes it comes just after the experience. Nearly instant to the experience but not instant. Experience arises... from itself?? Nothing conjuring it. Just happening. Then comes the “dictation thought”. Comes just after the experience. Like the "I thought".
It is being perceived also noticing thoughts while I type.

Good observation. This is one to look at often. What order do things happen in? Keep checking. Is there an 'I' that types? Where is this 'I'.

There feels like an I. But now that I’m looking the "I thought" seems to attach it self to the experience just as soon as it appears. Attaches just milliseconds after the experience. How annoying! lol.

Notice the breathing. Are 'you' breathing or is breathing just happening?

Breathing just happening. No need to tell the body to breath it's just happening.


Much Gratitude,
Barry

[Turnip]

Hi Barry

Thank you for your patience and time.

You're most welcome, it's a pleasure.

At what point does 'I' take ownership of it?

Not sure I fully understand. I don’t feel like I does take ownership of the sound. Unless you’re referring to the one having the experience, the I having the experience?

Is there a 'one having the experience'? In what way does an experience lead to the thought that there is a real 'me'? Don't think about this, look at what is happening. This time let's go for something like eating an apple or other piece of fruit. Describe what seems to be happening.

Breathing just happening. No need to tell the body to breath it's just happening.

You've looked closely at typing as well. Now start to look at other familiar activities like brushing your teeth and see if you can find a 'doer' or a 'controller' anywhere at all. Again, describe what seems to be happening.

Sense an I.

Do you? This isn't wrong, I'm just interested in the aspects of what is happening that reinforces the sense that you are a separate self? Curiosity is your friend here once again.

You're doing a great job Barry, creeping up on this mysterious thing that really isn't there at all! Keep it up. :)

With love

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hello Tim,
Here are my responses... took some digging... more digging needed.

Is there a 'one having the experience'?

At first I could not find 'the one' but looking closer it's this dictation thought-- the one that reads the experience. Even looking for 'the one' this voice is here. Very hard to shake.

In what way does an experience lead to the thought that there is a real 'me'?

Hmm. Never looked at that before. Why do I believe this thought is me? hmmm. This dictation thought seems to blot out all other thoughts even experiences. like I can't get above it. When I try to look at it, it is it that is dong the looking.

Don't think about this, look at what is happening. This time let's go for something like eating an apple or other piece of fruit. Describe what seems to be happening.

Eating a pastry. The dictation though comes so quickly. Right on top of the experience. Notes the flavor, the texture. Creamy. It's reading the experience back to me... to me? to who? Is it just reading the experience? looking.. When I try to find who the dictation thought is trying to dictate for, I am unable to find one. The dictation thought can be viewed. Who is doing the viewing? Looking. The looker looking.

Trying again with a banana. Awfully quiet now. The dictation thought is back when typing. Other thoughts come. These can all be witnessed. A dog chasing his tail.

You've looked closely at typing as well. Now start to look at other familiar activities like brushing your teeth and see if you can find a 'doer' or a 'controller' anywhere at all. Again, describe what seems to be happening.

Cannot find the doer. Just happening. Frustration comes. Thoughts like, yeah there's no doer, big deal... looking at these thoughts... There is no doer but there is a see-er. Someone/thing watching. Those roaming eyes. Unable to see the see-er.

Sense an I.

Do you? This isn't wrong, I'm just interested in the aspects of what is happening that reinforces the sense that you are a separate self? Curiosity is your friend here once again.

I think the I, I am referring to (sounds funny) is the one seeing but can't be seen. The one viewing the experiences. The one that "watches" the tastes, the smells, the touch, and sounds. The one that listens to the dictation thought. Unable to turn this one around... even talking about it in third person is funny. So who is typing here if this one is watching these words? Typing happens. Is that true? Hard to see that one. Am I typing or am I looking? Is it both? Do I sound crazy? lol
I need to investigate further on this.


Sending love,
Barry

[Turnip]

Hi Barry

Do I sound crazy?

Absolutely not. Rising frustration levels and confusion can be a good thing here. It can mean that you are finding that experience doesn't match the (possibly unconscious) expectations. Fear can also arise - see if that's true for you.

Cannot find the doer. Just happening. Frustration comes. Thoughts like, yeah there's no doer, big deal... looking at these thoughts... There is no doer but there is a see-er. Someone/thing watching. Those roaming eyes. Unable to see the see-er.

You've seen there is no-one who breathes, breathing just happens. I guess you also can't find a doer with the other activities I suggested like brushing teeth. Great looking Barry. But wait a minute, are you telling me there's a 'doer of seeing'? If so, where? What is it's nature? Check out the other senses too. Is there a 'doer of hearing, smelling, sensing'?.

It might help to try this little exercise. I suggest you use a pen and paper to record the following:

For 10 minutes write down concisely what is happening in experience using your natural language. eg I hear the clock ticking, I feel hungry, I drink some water, I write some words. For the next 10 minutes do the same thing but without using any self referential label (like I, me, my, mine). eg sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock.

Now look at your two lists.
1. Is one truer than the other and if so which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Good luck Barry. Remember it's observation rather than analysis that's needed. As soon as you get drawn into long trains of thought and speculation, your eye's slipped off the ball.

With love

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hi Tim!

I will do the exercise today and report back.

Good luck Barry. Remember it's observation rather than analysis that's needed. As soon as you get drawn into long trains of thought and speculation, your eye's slipped off the ball.

Thank you! I needed this reminder.

Talk soon,
Barry

[BarBarryN]

Hi Tim,

For 10 minutes write down concisely what is happening in experience using your natural language. eg I hear the clock ticking, I feel hungry, I drink some water, I write some words. For the next 10 minutes do the same thing but without using any self referential label (like I, me, my, mine). eg sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock.

Interesting. So the first exercise using I-- in the last few days I've been working on removing the I from experience so it took me a few lines to get back to this and to be honest it felt clunky! It felt like a lie in some place. like "I hear the dryer beneath me." Which isn't false but definitely feeling more comfortable with simply: The sound of the dryer.

1. Is one truer than the other and if so which one?

The one without the labels definitely feels truer.

2. What is here without labels?

Everything! Nothing get lost. Its all right here. I want to go further into this but then my mind starts taking over so I will stop right there haha.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Both? More the experience is shrouded behind the label? The experience can't be changed just blurred. I think. My mind is trying to clarify but again I think I will leave it there.

But wait a minute, are you telling me there's a 'doer of seeing'?

This one is a struggle. It feels like a witness to the seeing or a witness to the senses. Something looking at these words or feeling the pressure in my crossed legs.

If so, where?

It moves to where ever the focus is. To the sounds, to the smell, to the breath, etc.

What is it's nature?

To witness. That's all. Though I don't know how I know this. I can't get behind it. It's just there.

Check out the other senses too. Is there a 'doer of hearing, smelling, sensing'?.

It is possible that the mind, the thought directs this. There are assumptions being made I believe.

Let me focus on the typing. Pressure on finger tips. This is happening. The assumption is other activities are happening but are not seen or felt or heard or tasted because of this direction. Assumption that these roaming eyes that witness the senses can only be in one place at a time.. Mind wants to take over and analyze. Stopping for a moment.

Seeing now that these are assumptions. Assuming senses will be lost if I lose the focus of these roaming eyes. No proof anywhere. More like never tried any different. Don't know any other way. Thinking is happening.

Wondering now... trying not to wonder too much... but feeling like there is something here. Realizing there are assumptions that I thought were facts. Feeling like a baby who doesn't know how to unball his fist. kind of funny.

Thank you for this.

Continuing to question and look inward.

-Barry

[Turnip]

Hi Barry

The one without the labels definitely feels truer.

Yes!

What is here without labels?

Everything! Nothing get lost. Its all right here. I want to go further into this but then my mind starts taking over so I will stop right there haha.

Yes Yes YES then... What is this 'I' that wants to go further and there's 'my mind' as well?

Haha, sabotaged seeing happened right there. :) Definitely time to look at this pesky mind thing.

First let's look at 'thoughts'. Sit somewhere quiet, take some deep breaths and get a little centred and calm. Now:
1. Try to think a thought.
2. Can you control what thought comes up?
3. Can you stop a thought?
4. Can you see where a thought came from?
5. Can you see where a thought goes?
6. Can you control gaps between thoughts?

No speculation in the answers please, just looking.

To clarify what I mean by looking, I could ask you 'What colour socks have you got on?'. You could answer from memory or you could look down and see. Answers from looking tend to be short and precise.

This might not seem to be very much but it's pivotal to issues to do with control so take your time.

Love

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hi Tim,
Sorry for the delay in response. Spent some time with this.

What is here without labels?

Everything! Nothing get lost. Its all right here. I want to go further into this but then my mind starts taking over so I will stop right there haha.

Yes Yes YES then... What is this 'I' that wants to go further and there's 'my mind' as well?

ahh. The 'I' referred to is the awareness. Just awareness. The mind is the thought, the analtycal mind attempting to make sense of it.

1. Try to think a thought.
2. Can you control what thought comes up?

Sometimes it feels like I can. For instance if I say "dog" most of the time a thought of a dog will appear. But this is not always true. Sometimes the thought plays nice and sometimes it doesn't... sometimes a completely different thought arises. So I guess the final answer is no. Can't truly control a thought. Even if the thought is "playing nice" like okay here is that dog you asked for there is no control.

3. Can you stop a thought?

Cannot stop a thought but awareness can move away from the thought.

4. Can you see where a thought came from?

No. Cannot find the source. Just appears.

5. Can you see where a thought goes?

Hmmm. It just goes. Like a bubble pop. Replaced with new thought bubble. Thought bubble haha. Thoughts come and then dissapear with new thought or shifting awareness.

6. Can you control gaps between thoughts?

Only by shifting awareness. Can "pull out" of a thought. I suspect you will ask who is "pulling out" of the thought. let me look.

Can't find a who or a doer of the one pulling out of the thought. So how is the awareness moving? Just happening? Moves to breath. Moves to fingers and back. Moves to the sound of my dog coughing. Just happening. Awareness just happening? Is this true? Is awareness just awareness? That sounds silly to type. What else could awareness be?
Thoughts come to tell "me" this is not true but those are just witnessed. No sense of "truth" found in the thought.

Thank you, Tim. I will continue to investigate.

[Turnip]

Hi Barry

Thanks for getting back to me and well done with your investigation again. You also anticipated that I might ask about how the focus of your attention moves. :)

So far in your investigation you have made the following observations:

Breathing just happening.

Cannot find the doer. Just happening.

The one without the labels definitely feels truer.

What is here without labels? Everything! Nothing get lost. Its all right here.

Thoughts come and then dissapear with new thought or shifting awareness.

Awareness just happening? Is this true? Is awareness just awareness?

.............................................
So I'm going to ask you now - who or what is Barry?
What other aspects of 'Barryness' need to be looked at?

With much love

Tim