Any guide up for a challenge?.......

[Badgerbob]

Hi. I've already seen and commented on the video Metta; fascinating and confusing at the same time, 6 seconds is an awfully long time!

As for the exercise.....I just do not get it. It just seems an exercise in linguistics. I either use or don't use personal pronouns and the experience is still the same. It doesn't make me think "wow there really is no ME, isn't life easier now?". I know that my subconscious mind makes decisions seconds before 'i' do and I know that if I use or don't use personal pronouns, the experience is just the same. And I know that the self/me/I is just a brain construct, but so what? It doesn't move me, nothing has changed, suffering continues. Sorry Metta but I just don't get it. You have no idea how frustrating this is. Hope you don't give up on me! :)

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

Not a chance of giving up here. :-) That 6 seconds should say a lot about how decisions are made. Again this is about experiencing and not about learning a certain way to be. By now the idea has come out that who you see as yourself are only learned behaviors and concepts. What does that 6 seconds say about whats happening, be specific in your thoughts on that. Is there a doer or free will or is there Now and whats happening, NOW, Here. If a decision is made 6 seconds before the man was aware, it's obvious he himself, his I or personality wasn't making it. who was? What was?

The suffering is believing that the past is real and projecting a future that doesn't exist except in thought. We could all die tomorrow, correct, no one knows that. so the future is imaginary. So is anxiety about something that does not exist.
Be in immediacy,what causes the body to move, operate, eat, breathe, on a basic level?? Energy, energy neither dies or is born ,it only transforms, correct? I can't give the experience of now to you , attention has to be focused on this second, what am I experiencing right now? When Now is being experienced where is the self? The past is not real, it is a story that we keep alive and identify with to our benefit or detriment in many cases of suffering. Are you what has happened to you?

Conditioning takes away the natural experience of our environment and natural state of beingness. It starts very young, with labeling and naming. Naming has power if it is believed. So does the expectations of others because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. The only base of power in action is now. The past can't be changed, the future is not yet, what can be done, live in the Now. This is the only reality, correct? I think I may have said this, but be aware in the moment without thought and feel that, experience that.
Ask what day is it? Answer, TODAY!! The only real day, since time is an invention of people. We die to each moment and are reborn in that instant. Love, Metta

[Badgerbob]

I don't honestly know what to think about the 6 second delay between unconscious decision and conscious action. It tells me that the human psyche is far deeper and mysterious than I had originally imagined. There is some deep thinking going on in the depths of my unconscious mind that 'I' am completely unaware of. The human brain is incredibly complex. I can't really add any more to these observations.

You ask "are you what has happened to you?" and I have to answer, in many ways Yes. "I" am the result of all the circumstances and happenings in my life to date. This is what makes my own character distinct from others.

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

There is no me to give up on anyone, because there is no one to give up on either. Just a little humor along with your statement.

The six second delay considering the speed of the brain is a lengthy moment. It means that it is the brains conditioning at work and a spontaneous decision as is usually thought off when decisions are made is not there. What is seen as Bob is a collection of memorized experiences, conditioning by media,parents, society, temple or whatever. That the natural state of an infant before the conditioning and acquiring a self is the true state or ground of being. I may have said it before, but saying it again, a child has absolutely no sense of self until between 18 and 22 months of age. If this is pondered, it has to come to the conclusion that the self which you think you know is fabricated. Otherwise you would be born with it.
I don't know if there is a resistance to seeing that and a desire to keep your story, which is just that, or something else blocking seeing.
You are not giving me enough feedback and I feel your heart is not in it. The essential life in this form is not just a series of stale dead events that happened before and resides only in your brain. If there is true looking , there is no sustainable self , it is ego only which is a fantasy of having experiences and then storing them away like some software program. Is there honestly the belief that this is who you are and that is it??
Beliefs and thoughts must be questioned and examined for validity. We have upwards of 80 thousand thoughts a day, we are not even aware of all of them, some we vaguely are aware of and some that arise cause associations of emotional content, the cue or thought sets off a string of thoughts. Merely things like word association, except this is thought associations. So do you accept that self is a bunch of chemical reactions in the brain and nothing more?? Is there a doer? Who is making the decisions? Look behind the thoughts? Can a thought think itself? I need some effort expended here at answering the questions and thinking about them and then some in depth feed back. Love, Metta

[Badgerbob]

Apologies Metta for not blabbing more and writing loads of stuff, but I'm just not a waffler. I believe that clear thoughts can get swallowed up in a ton of words. The more I write, the more you have to read, the less chance there is of understanding what I'm trying to say.

So here goes: yes, essentially all I am is a collection of memories and conditioning. 'I' am almost certainly a construct of the brain only. If my brain gets damaged or altered in any way, my "self" will also get altered. Yes, I would honestly say I am 99% convinced that essentially I am a bunch of chemical reactions in the brain, including the brain itself. I don't say 100% convinced because I am not 100% convinced of anything, other than my own existence right now and I don't even know what that means. There is the feeling that a doer is making all the decisions, but I very much doubt that is what is really happening. No, a thought cant think, but a brain can and I am my brain AND it's functioning. Destroy the brain tissue - no me. So I guess, reduced to it's barest elements, 'I' am purely the functioning of my brain. That brain can get more and more reduced until functioning ceases altogether, which is when 'I' cease to exist.

Knowing all this doesn't alter my life or thoughts in any way. It's like being told that the earth is round; amazing fact, but for me the earth continues to feel flat. My 'self' just goes on worrying and fearful just the same, despite knowing about its fickle and fragile nature. To be honest, I'm not too sure how this knowledge is supposed to change ones perception. Hope I've explained myself enough Metta :)

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

It would seem there were some expectations around this that it would change your life, what else were the expectation surrounding this process. It seems there are more then originally seen.

So here goes: yes, essentially all I am is a collection of memories and conditioning. 'I' am almost certainly a construct of the brain only. If my brain gets damaged or altered in any way, my "self" will also get altered

The question is, is that really your self? or is there something more then that? From the previous comments on here it seems there have been moments where more then that was experienced. Is it true you are just a piece of meat in a bone case?? That's it?

. There is the feeling that a doer is making all the decisions, but I very much doubt that is what is really happening. No, a thought cant think, but a brain can and I am my brain AND it's functioning.

There is a feeling, but are feelings facts? A person can feel great one day and totally depressed the next when nothing has changed, how is this accounted for?

, 'I' am purely the functioning of my brain. That brain can get more and more reduced until functioning ceases altogether, which is when 'I' cease to exist.

There is energy coursing through the body, it is what makes it run, not the brain, no energy and the brain dies. So you are not just a brain. Science tells us that energy transforms but cannot be destroyed. The body is just a receptacle isn't it? In essence there is no self,except this energy which doesn't die. Isn't born.

Sometimes people get attached to the personality and the pain in their lives, Eckhart Tolle calls that a pain body. When we have identified as pain or as a brain or as thoughts it might be hard to see that that is not self. There is Awareness, this awareness is not confined to the body. Awareness does not need an identity or a self. It just is. Awareness of everything is NOW! So worrying when there is no self to worry about, only the story and the story can be dropped. The cage door opens. As for fear, why fear anything? The end result will be the same anyway for everyone. Fear blocks love and everything beautiful in life. So what are the fears, death, disaster, no money, job loss? All of these things happen to everyone and they will happen eventually, in the meantime what about life?

Never mind looking at how is it supposed to change anything, I didn't see any promises in the disclaimer, did you? Focus on what is happening here now, can you do that? Temporarily put aside your expectations, wants and just look. Resistance to what is, rather then what we think it is supposed to be causes pain.

If I give an exercise there is a reason for it even if it is not apparent at the time. Sit for 20 minutes in total ,absolute quiet, just look at your own body, feel it, look at your palms, feet, notice the color of your skin and nails. Just be there!! I don't know if absolute quiet where you are is even possible, it might surprise you what you just tune out.

Love, Metta

[Badgerbob]

Thanks Metta. Well, I sat for 20 minutes as you suggested (about 40 actually, as I fell asleep for a little while! Oops), but I'm not sure what to report. I've concluded that I really am just a piece of meat in a bone case. The only exception is, as you say, this body is animated with life and what a weird thing that is. It is pure energy and I can feel it surging round my body, tingling and pulsing. Trouble is, there's not much consolation in that. When my body dies, the impersonal energy just dissipates into the atmosphere and I must say, my greatest fear is death. The thought that after this life is just total loss of consciousness and absolute annihilation forever scares the bejesus out of me! I'm not sure how the nondual message is any different to this scenario, but "awake" people don't seem to fear death and I certainly could do with a bit of that! What are your thoughts on this Metta?

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

There are many thoughts on this in non-dual groups, sometimes depending on what kind of pre-conceptions are there coming in. That the energy just dissipates is that a fact or a belief??

t I'm not sure what to report.

Report on what was experienced during the time you were not sleeping. Is there awareness while sleeping?

When watching a movie on tv you are aware that behind the movie is a blank screen, all black. That the movie is projected, not actually happening. Yet, there is sometimes emotion felt over the events depicted on the screen. He loses his girl, his truck and his best gun. Etc. Then towards the end, he gets them all back, plus an extra gun or something. Just an example, lol. Then there is a feeling of victory, the little guy won, etc.

Could awareness be similar to that? Life or awareness ( consciousness) is superimposed on an energy field ? That it seems we are separate, but are not. That it is all one. That the concept of a me is just that, only a concept and not real.
That the only real is awareness itself? " I AM" Awareness experiencing through the vehicle of a body is never destroyed, it transforms into? Death is the biggest lie, since awareness is and is not born nor does it die. What happens in the womb? If just a piece of meat, why do you move, breath, love, cry, have fear? Last time I looked at a steak, it didn't do that. I would really freak out if it did. lol. I do have a sense of humor, I just hide it well. :-)

just total loss of consciousness and absolute annihilation forever scares the bejesus out of me!

Is that true or a fact or a belief ?


Love, Metta

[Badgerbob]

Hi Metta. I think the idea of total loss of consciousness and annihilation at death is more of a fact than some sort of continuance of awareness. I sure do hope I'm wrong, but there's no evidence for "awareness" not dying is there? What does that even mean? In all the nondual stuff I've read, the "self" doesn't exist at all and "awareness" is everything and consequently bigged up and capitalised. But from my perspective, I just don't get it; it's like everyone is describing the beautiful clothes the Emperor is wearing and all I am seeing is a wrinkly old geezer in the buff! :) Apples and oranges I guess.

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

Hahahaha, love that image, the wrinkly old geezer in the buff. That's fine bob, I wouldn't want you to say something you have not experienced for yourself. Which if there was the experience no self is needed. :-) I like your sense of humor by the way.

Okay, I will try to explain it this way, but unless you focus on the experiential part of this ,instead of thought it gets missed. It is not thought. Try to focus on the exercises and the experiences instead on what to answer.
There is a tv in your livingroom. You , ( there is no you, but for this exercise ), look at the tv screen, it is a bigggg one. All you see is black, then you get up and turn it on. Now a beautiful landscape appears, with cowboys. Sometime during the movie you forget its a movie because you are involved in the plot. You are rescuing the beautiful neighbor and her farm from the nasty old rich rancher that wants her off the land. Then out of no where a friend comes in and says, " Look at the screen." You are looking at the screen, it never left, it remains the same all the time. but you aren't seeing it because of the landscape and the neighbor in it.

Now, we can't see the screen, we are caught up in the plot. We are breathing, eating, smelling, seeing, thinking, but even when thoughts are stopped, now step back and look at this, thoughts are stopped, but awareness continues. It is always there, it never left. Also become aware of all the life around you, a self or identity is not required for awareness to continue. Birds , animals, etc., are all aware without being called Tom or Mrs. Jenson or whatever. Now, think of the fact that life is energy and it can be felt. 6th grade science taught me that, energy cannot be destroyed. It merely transforms. So two things here, energy(life) cannot be destroyed and if you become silent in your thoughts, even when your not thinking awareness is still there. Even when your sleeping awareness is there on some level. Otherwise people wouldn't wake up from someone else walking into a room, or when they are hungry, etc.
Your brain is like a super computer, it does everything for you, processes, labels, enables all the experiences on a daily basis. But it is not a self. I want you too look for a self and tell me if you truly can find an identity in a bunch of labels and ideas that someone else taught you from a baby. You were processed and packaged just like a commodity from birth. told how to think, act, what things were, labels for trees, cars, etc. then told by your peers, culture what you should strive for, want, need, the whole ball of wax. But is that concept called Bob an identity or just a concept added on to awareness. Awareness
( consciousness)
Love, metta

[Badgerbob]

Sorry for being so dense Metta, but I'm just not seeing this at all. I'm not even sure what it is I'm supposed to see. If I sit for a few moments without thoughts, then what happens? Nothing. No, not no-thing, nothing! Bugger all! I don't notice awareness or "see the screen". No, nothing. It's like going outside and watching the grass grow. Nothing happens. Nothing is seen. Nothing is noticed. There's just an absence of thought chatter for a few seconds at a time. I've been meditating off and on for almost 30 years and I honestly don't know why the hell I bother. Just habit I guess.

I've really been pondering all you've said and I've come to the conclusion that I'm completely convinced that 'I' am the body, more specifically the brain and absolutely nothing more. How do I unconvince myself of this Metta? I feel that I've hit this from every angle and am just going round in circles. I feel instinctively that there is more to life, more to me, than what I see, but that's all it remains, a vague intuition.

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

If you have come to that conclusion, it is not for me to convince you. If after everything there is no awareness of anything we have talked about , nor any experiences that you can step back from and question. If behind thought there is no sense of something else, then perhaps it is just not the right time. I can suggest one other guide that might be able to help. His user name is Cosmik, I don't know if he will take you or not, he is very busy with various projects. I would make a thread and ask for him. What do you have to lose at this point. Best of Luck to you. I don't believe I can be of any help to you at this point. Namaste and Regards, Metta777

[Badgerbob]

Yes please Metta. I'm open to any help I can get! I shall miss your help and guidance though :( many, many thanks. Paul (or bob) :)

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

I will make the thread for you. Asking for him. Hopefully it will work out for you, or perhaps another guide. In any case, what happens ,happens and everything is fine. Regards, metta

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

Please check to see if there is an answer to the thread I open for you. Thanks, Metta