Any guide up for a challenge?.......

[Badgerbob]

I really need to SEE for certain that there is no self, but though I think I understand the concept, the penny just will not drop. I have been on this forum last year, though unsuccessfully. Can anyone help me? Thanks

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

I will be your guide if you like with a few agreements. Please if you have not done so, read the disclaimer. Agree to daily contact. Drop for now any preconceived ideas, religions, practices, etc. Just temporarily, meditation is fine. Tell me what the expectations are for this experience, and briefly go over what happened with your previous attempt. If all this is agreeable, let me know and we can begin. Namaste, Metta777

[Badgerbob]

Many thanks Metta777. I've done as you requested. Last year I participated on this forum for a few weeks and then went over to the Facebook site. Basically, I went through all the questions the guides threw at me as best as I could and then after many weeks, I decided to give it a break as we were getting nowhere and it was becoming very frustrating. Hopefully, this time will be different :)

What i am expecting is to finally see through the illusion of self and relax into the "natural state". Right now, it's all about ME and with that comes suffering. I'm hoping for some certainty in life; to KNOW beyond doubt that everything is ok. Perfect, just the way it is. Whereas, at the moment I am just full of anxiety about "my life" and the lives of those I love. Hope this makes sense. Thank you.

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

Basically, I went through all the questions the guides threw at me as best as I could and then after many weeks, I decided to give it a break as we were getting nowhere and it was becoming very frustrating. Hopefully, this time will be different :)

It is not just answering the questions, which are really meant as pointers for experiential discovery. So lets start with the question of self. I don't want rote answers, please answer in as detailed a way as possible after doing the exercises or the experience of looking. When observing the environment and then looking at your body can you see a line of separation. I am not talking about physically, note I said in awareness. If there is a way to separate out the awareness, describe it .Physically it is done very easily, if there is a field and at the end of the field is a line of trees, it is obvious. But in awareness is it obvious?


Before 18 months of age to 22 months a baby has no sense of being separate from it's mother or anything else, there is no sense of self at all. If the personality was not fabricated out of conditioning and ongoing labeling by the mind wouldn't the child have been born with a sense of self?

Are you the doer or decider? Please look at this video and let me know your response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 6S9OidmNZM

This is a small start.
Regards, Metta

[Badgerbob]

I'm not sure I can observe my environment non-physically. I suppose using Sight, the boundary is obvious; but with the other senses, the demarcation is much less obvious.

The sense of self is almost certainly a brain construct. Necessary I guess for everyday social interaction, but over-develops with time and creates the human ego with it's never ceasing selfish desires and painful sense of separation.

I don't really know what to think about the YouTube video. Like DuSautoy, I find it very disturbing that there is such a huge gap between when my brain makes a decision and when 'I' consciously make the decision. Very weird, though I haven't really thought through it's implications. Hope I don't come across as too obtuse Metta; I just want to be 100% honest and really get this.

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

I'm not sure I can observe my environment non-physically. I suppose using Sight, the boundary is obvious; but with the other senses, the demarcation is much less obvious.

Lets try an example, wind cannot be seen, it is only seen as a secondary effect. Like branches moving, or you feel it on your body. But it is impossible to see wind directly, it is the effects of the wind that you recognize. So look for a self. If Awareness is there you may not be able to see it, but know it by the senses and thought. There is feeling, taste. touch, sight, etc. These are the five streams of direct experience and there is also thought. Yes, physically the boundary is quite obvious, but in consciousness or awareness is there really any separation that can be seen? It's like a movie, before the movie starts there is this big white screen, then all of a sudden characters appear, and when you watch it, you might feel emotions, for the poor guy whose gf died, or dog died or someone stole his truck. But there is an understanding in the brain that it is only really a white screen with images on it. The screen never changed at all, the characters ,motion just played over it. Awareness is like a movie, except instead of a screen , there is energy and appearances in energy , but awareness itself does not change it looks. The looker or awareness has no identity does it? Isn't it just a movie and the brain was conditioned since a child to label things, believe things. If you were not born with an identity, it couldn't have been original, correct?? It is fabricated from Direct experiences of the senses and what you were told.

I find it very disturbing that there is such a huge gap between when my brain makes a decision and when 'I' consciously make the decision. Very weird, though I haven't really thought through it's implications. Hope I don't come across as too obtuse Metta; I just want to be 100% honest and really get this.

I would like you to think about the implications. If a decision is made before you are aware, then how is it getting made, not by you? right? Not by a man called Bob. Can you make decisions yourself,is there a doer? It might seem so, but give it some thought.

Not at all Bob, if it is disturbing then it was understood to a point and it will be taken further.


Love, Metta

[Badgerbob]

I think the separation we feel is most obvious when we are with other people. We seem to be locked in our own heads and have no idea what others are thinking. And the "awareness" we have/are is surely just the byproduct of a functioning body/brain isn't it? Nothing remarkable in and of itself. If we somehow share this Awareness, how is it we are totally unaware of each others thoughts?

I guess the YouTube video implies that "we" are not in control at all and that really, we are just meat computers running on automatic. This is all very confusing, because it certainly seems like 'I' am the doer in my life; that 'I' make my own decisions. If not 'me' then who? Who am 'I' really anyway? So many questions!

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

Looking through what I wrote , there were quite a few questions not answered. could you go over it again more slowly and think about all the questions and answer them in as much detail and as clearly as possible. It will assist me in more clearly seeing where you are at.

Thanks, Metta

[Badgerbob]

Ok Metta.

"Can any separation be seen in awareness/consciousness?" Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question.

"The looker/awareness has no identity does it?" No, stripped of all ideas/memories/thoughts and feelings, the raw awareness has no identity at all. I've never really thought of that before. It just seems almost impossible to separate this awareness from my sense of self (thoughts, memories, emotions, etc.).

"If you were not born with an identity, it couldn't have been original, correct?" Correct. The identity developed over time and was shaped by genetic, environmental and circumstantial influences. Hope I've covered everything; I'm afraid I'm not very verbose!

[Badgerbob]

Oops! Just spotted some more questions:

"If a decision is made before you are aware, then how is it getting made, not by you right?" Actually, I find that 6 second gap between unconscious and conscious decision a little hard to believe. I think it needs more research. I can understand a gap of maybe a second or so while the unconscious mind churns away, but not much more. If it is correct, then it's just plain weird and no, it is definitely not getting made by me. Then who else? Weird.

"Can you make decisions yourself, is there a doer?" Based on the above, no. But experientially it's a different matter; 'I' decide to do something and then 'I' go ahead and do it. Simple and straightforward. It seems obvious.

[Metta777]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for some further info.

"Can any separation be seen in awareness/consciousness?" Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question

Okay, let's try an example, If you see something physically ,it is easy to see the point of separation or difference between your body and a chair. But only using awareness, looking at the computer screen where does awareness stop? Is there a definite separation in awareness between you and the computer screen. Not physically! Only in consciousness.

A couple of exercises, please do them, write down how you felt and thought during them and let me know. First one, try to get an exact picture of someone you haven't seen for awhile in your mind.

2nd one, go for a short walk, this is called walking meditation. Walk very slowly, be aware of your feet, lift one and then feel it touching the ground. Lift the next one, What leaves the ground first, heel or toe? Birds are aware , but they have no identity, so through this you can observe that awareness does not need an identity, but the mind does. Feel your body when walking, then stop, how does your body feel stopped? Are there any clouds, animals, concrete, dirt, flowers, etc.? Write down your impressions. Then let me know. This will require a little work, but if there is commitment to finding no self then it will be a breeze.

There are five senses and thought, when looking can you find anything else other then that? The past is dead, it can't be relived, so the moment something happens it dies and is reborn in a new moment. Now is experiential reality. The future is just a projection based on past conditioning, what is thought life will be. All of us or anyone could die today.

"Can you make decisions yourself, is there a doer?" Based on the above, no. But experientially it's a different matter; 'I' decide to do something and then 'I' go ahead and do it. Simple and straightforward. It seems obvious.

There has been much research on it and MRI's etc. which confirm that the decision is made before there is awareness of it. That would mean that conditioning made the decision, the brain is programmable just like a computer. It learns. From the moment you were born it started to be trained. there is no real decided, it just happens quickly and when you become aware of it, it seems to happen together. Thought just arise, don't they? Can you totally stop thoughts for say 15 to 20 minutes, just remain blank? We have 80 thousand thoughts a day, are we aware of all of them? NO. The mind will grasp onto certain thoughts, then emotion will be added after certain signals are sent. Some people are not able to really feel emotion or even tell they are separate from the environment.
If the mind becomes aware of certain circumstances it will sift through experience and then prompt a similar reaction. then mind will even give you pain when there is no leg for example to have pain. Like when someone loses a leg in war and they still feel pain in a leg that is no longer there. Very common experience. Because the brain has learned there is a leg there and is patterned.

Sit quietly in a chair and try to stop thoughts completely and don't think of a football. Let me know how that goes fro you.


Love, Metta

[Badgerbob]

Thank you so much for your guidance Metta. I really appreciate what you are doing for me. I'm going to go through everything you have suggested and will get back to you as soon as I'm done. Much love, Paul (or Bob if you prefer ;) ).

[Badgerbob]

Ok Metta. I tried to picture someone in my mind who I hadn't seen for a while and I think I was about 80% successful; the rest was kinda fuzzy and hazy.

During the walking meditation, I noticed that the heel leaves the ground first and when the body stops walking, I am more aware and notice more. I noticed that basically, everything was just going about it's business; clouds were moving by and birds were singing off in the distance. Bushes and plants were moving in the breeze, which felt quite cool on the skin (British summertime my arse! :) ). I was feeling quite chilled and peaceful, though a little melancholic for some reason. No particular thoughts at that moment,

The only things I noticed other than the 5 senses and thoughts were emotions/feelings and memories. Though I guess memories are just thoughts.

When I sat quietly and tried to stop thoughts, I managed about 30 seconds! After initial difficulty I managed not to think of a football for a little while. I also again noticed that underlying feeling of melancholy/sadness. Not sure what that's all about, but it always seems to be there.

[Metta777]

Hello BobPaul,

I call that feeling bitter sweet, it's in the middle, anyway, next time it pops up, sit with it and just relax, let it be there because it usually has a message to learn or hear. One of the most difficult things is to learn not to label feeling and things around us or even ourselves. so really it is a sort of unlearning.

It can be sad to let go of who we thought we were, the past that we thought belonged to someone, when no self is seen.

What is the reason for it being fuzzy or hazy? Is it perhaps because there is no self and no other that we are appearances in energy . Life living itself. Just awareness looking and life goes on just like the clouds passing by and the breeze blowing the leaves. All passes doesn't it?

everything was just going about it's business; clouds were moving by and birds were singing off in the distance

There was awareness and just the senses looking at the surroundings,feeling, seeing, hearing. does that need an identity to happen?

When I sat quietly and tried to stop thoughts, I managed about 30 seconds! After initial difficulty I managed not to think of a football for a little while. I also again noticed that underlying feeling of melancholy/sadness. Not sure what that's all about, but it always seems to be there.

Yes, because there is no real control of thoughts, they just arise and some gain more footing then others, emotions are added to them. There was no way not to think of a football, your subconscious will resist any direction not to think of something, your awareness has no control over it. Do you see? Life just happens and we are in the river of life, the flow of energy. Is there a self or doer??

It is my pleasure Paul to be of any assistence. Love, metta

[Badgerbob]

"is there a self or doer?" Honestly Metta, I really don't know. I'm very confused. I know on an intellectual level that the self is probably just a construct of the brain. There is no homunculus and I've never really bought onto the immortal soul idea. However, experientially the sense of self is so powerful and convincing. I know that spending time looking for the self is a complete waste of time for 2 reasons: 1) if there really was a self, it wouldn't be able to see itself; just as the eye can't see itself and 2) if there was no self, it would never be found anyway.

When I was a kid, I often had a terrible fear/thought that I was the only person that really exists. Everything else was purely my own imaginings. I later learned that this was Solipsism and to this day I still wonder! When I first came across nonduality I was a bit freaked out as it sounded very similar, though there is no person at all in nonduality! Anyway, suffice to say, I'm just a little confused right now and waiting for the nugget of wisdom that will finally help me to see the truth clearly! No pressure then Metta! ;)