I will never get this

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:47 pm

Hi Rick,
I read about this many times with the attitude "Yeah, whatever" and moved on, but as the investigation got down to the nitty-gritty of watching the low level activity of the mind I started seeing how it was working for real in this life. The most revelational thing for me was to see that the "separate I" is itself just a thought.
I know--isn't it amazing that we are in "yeah, yeah" mode until we ACTUALLY LOOK, as you have.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: This-that-isn't-a-thing is available to everyone

Postby Rickster » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:02 am

Hi Skye,
How does it feel to see this?
Feels like a good dose of freedom! Some heavy chains have been removed. I'm no longer at the complete mercy of the mind's shenanigans. It is of course still on auto-pilot bloviating its usual garbage but its weaker now. I can feel it getting reved up, ready to go into one of its fiery tirades and then a few seconds later its just quiet. No one there to pay attention to it.

For me, understanding the mechanics of this stuff opens the way to the actual feeling and living of it.
I think there is something else in the works that is coming soon, having to do with the knowing of what I am / we are (the awareness). Some basic insights are happening here that have been stuck on hold for quite a while. I could really use some help on this.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Wow! Looking back over the past few days a lot has happened. My usual confused, bewildered, fractured state seems to have gotten more smooth and organized. Some of the insights happened at various times over the past 24 months but some even bigger ones are happening right here, right now in this dialogue. Overall it seems like pieces of the puzzle are falling into place and lining up with one another. Before it seemed like the pieces were just floating around separately - good pieces, but not revealing any bigger picture. The pieces that are lining up seem like big fundamental ones that won't be ripped up again. Like the hole blown in the ego. That hole is still there and I don't think it can be repaired. I would have to get amnesia for that to happen.

Peace and Love,
Rick

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:35 am

Rick,
You introduced me to a new word that I didn't know: bloviate! Thank you!
For me, understanding the mechanics of this stuff opens the way to the actual feeling and living of it.
I think there is something else in the works that is coming soon, having to do with the knowing of what I am / we are (the awareness). Some basic insights are happening here that have been stuck on hold for quite a while. I could really use some help on this.
If you unpack this so I understand more, perhaps I can point more specifically. The actual feeling and living of it--you will find that the deepening continues, and taking your stand as awareness, rather than as a (supposed) separate self, occurs more readily.
Before it seemed like the pieces were just floating around separately - good pieces, but not revealing any bigger picture. The pieces that are lining up seem like big fundamental ones that won't be ripped up again. Like the hole blown in the ego. That hole is still there and I don't think it can be repaired. I would have to get amnesia for that to happen.
Beautiful, Rick.

Next question:
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: I will never get this

Postby Rickster » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:02 am

Hi Skye,

Bloviate: To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner. I actually know people who do this! (not me of course, but a guy I know)
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Overall it was a cummulative effect of just going back over the same things again and again. After a lot of reading and listening to all the people that are waking up to reality it seemed that one of two things had to be true:
1) Everyone is wrong or misguided. Thousands of years of knowledge is all wrong. All those people who dedicated their entire life's work to this are all wrong, or
2) The truth is there. I'm just not seeing it yet.

Somehow option 2 seems more likely, so there's not much choice but to keep looking. Luckily these days we have tons of resources (like this site).
This dialogue had to have something to do with it. As in chemistry, one substance by itself just sits there inert. But add a second substance and look out! Its likely that some sort of reaction might happen. For whatever reason things are moving forward now. And like you say, it has to be an ongoing process. On a scale of 1 to 10 for awakening I might be at .5 or so, but it feels good. I really love this stuff, always have. How could anything be more interesting and exciting than the pursuit of reality? People talk about winning the lottery or some fabulous new science that will extend human life to 150 years. Ha! Who needs that? We are on to something that makes that look paltry! But the really good thing is that we ALL win in the end - no one is left out. (or thats my guess)
If you unpack this so I understand more, perhaps I can point more specifically. The actual feeling and living of it--you will find that the deepening continues, and taking your stand as awareness, rather than as a (supposed) separate self, occurs more readily.
First off, for whatever reason, I have discovered more about what I am not (ego) than what I am. Thats just the way its happened.
And here again, it seems to be the understanding of the mechanics of things that is moving the understanding forward.

Just a couple of days ago I was looking over something that has never seemed to sink in. They say that what we are is everything here - all the objects, including the body/mind, and including the underlying source - everything and no-thing. We are the whole of it even though there is the appearance of separateness. But I have never had much direct feeling of this unity. And along these lines, they say things like "Us looking at something is really the way Oneness is aware of itself", and "there is no seeing without the seen object." All very interesting.

So this all has to do with our physical seeing. Then something dawned on me: If there was seeing WITHOUT the seen object, then I should be able to prove that by exercising my ability to see, all by itself, with no seen object. This would be my eyes doing some sort of raw seeing action with no seen objects necessary. But this is not possible. We can't do that. We only see along with the seen objects. They go together! They are completely dependent on each other. They are really just the two aspects on ONE thing. So extend that to all the senses and I start to get a feeling of complete integration. There is no possibility of separation. It is just not possible.

Is seeing this an example of awaring? How does awareness/awaring seem to you? I realize that there are many ways to look at it besides my "mechanical way". Women seem to have some different viewpoints that are interesting.

Peace and Love,
Rick

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:32 am

Hi Rick,
But the really good thing is that we ALL win in the end - no one is left out. (or that's my guess)
It's not a guess--every single body-mind has the opportunity.
First off, for whatever reason, I have discovered more about what I am not (ego) than what I am.
This is what happens for everyone of us, Rick. It can be no other way, because what we are is:
  • unfindable
    has no objective properties
    can't really be talked about, but can only be lived.
The truth is there. I'm just not seeing it yet.
You are there--but you need to acknowledge, trust, and stand in what you know you are.

Next question:
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: I will never get this

Postby Rickster » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:28 am

Hi Skye,
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
It certainly seems like I decide, intend, choose and control, but apparently thats how the whole ego sham works. There is the appearance of an independent body/mind as the vehicle/controller. It is very easy to buy into the notion that this is my body, my thoughts and I'm in charge. I'm doing everything that is directly related to "me". Other people are doing the same from their location.

Over time the mind collects all sorts of thoughts and beliefs that come in from many sources. Some are completely erroneous, but the mind does not see everything clearly. It seems to base things on its beliefs, right or wrong, and if it has that basic belief that there's this "I" and its in control, then its off to the races. The whole life can be lived under this M.O. Thats what I was doing.

For me there was a strong sense of "something's wrong", along with a natural attraction to spirituality. This caused me to finally start the hard work of investigation. They say that it can't be completely lived based on belief and blind faith. One must do the work of investigation for himself, so I did.

The first thing that really got me going was to see that some of my thoughts and beliefs (that I was completely living by) were COMPLETELY WRONG! This was actually very liberating. It meant I was no longer under the total domination of this mind. (I didn't even know that was possible. How could I escape my own mind? The thing was kicking my ass day and night !!!!) I started questioning and investigating everything it was doing. It turns out it was wrong or misguided about a lot of things - especially about the supposed "me".

This led me to investigate some of the basic "spiritual" topics that I frankly thought I would never understand, like: I'm not doing the seeing, hearing, thinking etc. - not very believable to the usual way of thinking. After a lot of investigating and experimenting I have realized for myself that all this is indeed true. A lot of things are obviously happening, but I (as the supposed separate entity) am not doing one bit of it. This is also very very liberating. This small bit of reality I'm experiencing has the feeling of ease and freedom and lightness, as opposed to the heavy feeling of the confused, agitated egoic mode. (That guy is always P.O'ed about one thing or another. ;-)

One example that happened recently was an eye opener. They say we are "being lived" rather than us being in control. This concept didn't even interest me that much. I thought it might possibly be true, but I had absolutely no direct experience of it, and didn't think I ever would. Then one evening as I was doing some mundane things around the house and something happened. It was sort of like I backed away a couple of feet and was observing the body/mind going about its business. It was not like an out-of-body experience. It just felt like I was backed up a little, somehow. From this point of view it appeared that the body mind was "being lived". I was observing it. I look at it as just a strange little experience, but it was certainly an eye opener. I was not trying to see that. It just happened. It felt fairly natural.

Peace and Love,
Rick

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:23 am

Hi Rick,
I know, isn't amazing when we actually look? Instead of believing what someone else says? Amazing what unfolds.

One last question:

6) Anything to add?

with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: I will never get this

Postby Rickster » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:30 am

Hi Skye, I could talk about this some more, but I guess we can stop with the current phase.
The dialog was very helpful - never had much opportunity to discuss this before.
If you or anyone else wants to discuss any more of this, I believe you can get my email address from the site admin.

Thanks, Peace, and Love,
Rick

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:54 am

Hi Rick,
I need a bit more on this question:
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
--from your direct experience right now. (not from what other people say about it) Do you have personal control?
with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: I will never get this

Postby Rickster » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:11 am

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
--from your direct experience right now. (not from what other people say about it) Do you have personal control?
Deciding, intending, choosing, controlling events:
For physical events it seems like this is one area where I can exercise control. It seems that I can force things to happen the way I want. For example I have an exercise routine that I'm "supposed" to do 3 times per week. Sometimes I think I am applying my great willpower and control when I get through a few weeks of staying on schedule. Then for some reason the schedule just stops happening. It was not my egoic intention, or decision, or choice to skip the exercises. The ego's plan is simple - do it 3 times a week, period. For some other unknown reason things just go a different route. If it were solely up to my egoic control everything might get done perfectly! (Duh.. right)

Last night I decided I was not going to do the exercises. "Its too late, I'm too tired, I'm considering quitting the whole thing anyway." That type of reasoning usually causes me to skip the exercises. Ultimately I wound up doing the exercises anyway (don't know how or why, just did it). So I may be intending to do it or I may be intending to NOT do it, and then whatever happens happens. I'm not really controlling it apparently.

But as usual the egoic mode has no problem with any of this. It just comes in afterwards and claims control of it all and adds on whatever rationalization that fits. It doesn't care which option was played out. It will claim it one way or the other. But the key thing I'm noticing is that it always does its thing after the fact. It had no control when it would have mattered - before events happen. Its claiming always gives it the sense of control, but its not really controlling. It spits out its opinions before, during, and after events, but the bottom line is that it is not really controlling things.

This scenario above is applicable to practically everything in my life - doing some work, doing some project, having some fun, going on a trip. I have my preferences and intentions, and I make my decisions and choices and then whatever happens happens. Usually things happen close enough to the original intention so that I do get the sense of control. If everything always went completely haywire it would be noticable and I would catch on faster. Apparently its that sense of control that happens just enough to fool me. But I am catching on now. My guess is there will continue to be enough continuity in intentions versus results to cause the appearance of control, but I have seen enough to know something else is going on.


Deciding, intending, choosing, controlling thoughts:
At this point in the spiritual journey I can see how the ego illusion works. There is a central character known as "me" and there are thousands of stories supporting every aspect of his imaginary life. The most aggravating stories are the ones involving anger, rage, resentment and etc about various painful issues and events of my life - failed relationships, bad jobs, failed endeavors, deaths etc. (Not that thats all there is. There are positives too :-)

I am now getting some relief from these mental storms as I can see that they are all about the phantom character - not who I am. Whats happening now though is that the stories keep playing anyway, sometimes with even more intensity! They do tend to fizzle out much quicker since I recognize them for what they are, but the point is I am not controlling them. I don't control thoughts. If I did they would obviously be different.

I don't control the good thoughts either. They pop up spontaneously and I enjoy them while they're here. Then they fade away and some other thoughts come in. Just watching them come and go is interesting.


Thanks for listening,
Rick

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:10 am

Thanks, Rick, for this reply. Stay tuned.
Sent thread on for my guiding to be reviewed...
with love,
Skye

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:11 am

Hi Rick,
I want to work with you a bit more on the "control" question, and have you look again at your direct experience. Do you really have any control at all, ever? Or does life just unfolds as it unfolds, and then we claim control?
with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: I will never get this

Postby Rickster » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:46 am

Hi Skye,
It seems to me that I answered your question clearly in paragraph three above. Am I missing something? I'm open to more suggestions.

I could add that I believe I am right in the middle of a big shift on this control issue. On one hand I can clearly see that this "egoic I" is utterly powerless and therefore controls nothing and never has. I am seeing this in real-time with everyday events. On the other hand there is this momentum of doing and thinking the same old way, even if it no longer makes sense. So what I'm doing now is paying more attention to whats going on in the head (the same old stories bubbling up) and then cutting them off quickly and reconsidering things with what I now know: Who are these stories for, and about? I already know the answer but it seems like some repetition helps.

Things are opening up more and more every day. I don't know if some dramatic shift will happen or what, but I am clearly being drawn into something. I'm not exerting one iota of "my willpower" but somehow I seem to be working on this stuff 24/7/365 - even during sleep - for two years non-stop. I don't know whats going on. I'm just going along with it happily. I'm not keeping up with a lot of things like I "should". Oh well, I feel like I'm just floating down some river heading who knows where. There's not much I can do about it really. If its slow its slow. If its fast its fast. I really don't know and can't tell how this journey compares to others.

I wish I could force the mind to move faster into new territory and change its old habits but I don't think I can do any more than I'm already doing. I do believe that looking into things directly and increasing the knowledge on any level does some good.

I'm open to talking about this all you want. Is there something you think I should look into more - some other angle, etc...?

Thanks, Peace and Love,
Rick

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clearskye
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Re: I will never get this

Postby clearskye » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:57 pm

Hi Rick,
I wish I could force the mind to move faster into new territory and change its old habits but I don't think I can do any more than I'm already doing. I do believe that looking into things directly and increasing the knowledge on any level does some good.
What "I" is there to force the mind? Can you find that one?

"Knowledge" is of the mind, and hence is always behind the present moment. The split second it takes for the thought to arise means it's always late. If we rely on direct experience, how exactly does knowledge (in this realm of unlearning and seeing through) do some good?

I know I'm pushing you a bit here to look even more deeply. You are "doing" beautifully. Let's just keep going for a bit, okay?
with love,
Skye

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Rickster
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Re: I will never get this

Postby Rickster » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:59 pm

Hi Skye,
What "I" is there to force the mind? Can you find that one?
No. Its the same imaginary character that says "I'm seeing, I'm hearing, I'm thinking, I'm in control."
If we rely on direct experience, how exactly does knowledge (in this realm of unlearning and seeing through) do some good?
I was just saying in general that knowledge gets us in the ballpark. It points to what needs to be actually lived.

Peace and Love,
Rick


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