I will never get this

[Rickster]

Hi. I am seeking a guide. I've been interested in this stuff all my life and have read a few books and had a few spiritual experiences here and there. Then 2 years ago something seemed to call me into this in a big way. Since then I've been happily consuming advaita morning, noon and night everyday. (Kind of going crazy with it actually, but thats whats happening.)

The people/teachers I've been drawn to are John Wheeler, Wayne Liquorman, Paul Hedderman, Sailor Bob Adamson, Tony Parsons, and some others on the web. I think I fall into the "neo-advaita" camp. This is the angle that attracts me.

So now I've figured out why I can't "get there" or get "enlightened" or "awakened" or whatever. Its because I am the problem. I, as the separate guy, am whats standing in the way of awakening. So I'm boxed in in the classic ego trap. I need to get free of the ego game.

Thanks,
Rick

[clearskye]

Hello Rick,
I'd be happy to work with you.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to try to post at least once a day--and if you can't, and know ahead of time, let me know. When you use the full editor, you can click at the bottom so you receive an email each time I respond to you, and I will do the same.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress, but forthcoming, longer answers from direct experience are welcomed. It is easier for me to point if I'm given your words to work with...
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. I know it's hard to put down the Advaita books--but I have been through this too! This work is directly in line with them; nothing is lost. You may pick then up afterward.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660”

you may call me Skye. I am a woman. If you would prefer to work with a man, no problem. Just let me know.

with love,
Skye

[clearskye]

I

neglected to click the box below the full editor under Options, so am emailing again so I can do that!

[Rickster]

Hi Skye. Thanks for responding. I am really looking forward to discussing this stuff with someone. I don't know anyone who has the slightest interest in it. And the male/female issue makes no difference to me.

I am in complete agreement with all the rules so lets get started whenever you want.

Thanks,
Rick

[clearskye]

Hi Rick,
Okay, here we go. I need to understand what your expectations are. What does awakening mean to you? Why do you want it? What will it do for you? What do you believe it might look like?

The more forthcoming you are, the better I can point for you... in other words, paragraphs rather than single sentences--but always from your direct experience right now.

And re: your subject line. You WILL get this. It is equally available to every one of us. Right now. Nothing to learn, although perhaps some beliefs to unlearn. Open to changing the subject line?

with love,
Skye

[Rickster]

I need to understand what your expectations are. What does awakening mean to you?

To me, awakening means realizing who I really am as opposed to this character in my head. The character in my head is the star of all sorts of mental movies that run almost constantly it seems. All the scenarios seem to be about justifying this life somehow, making it acceptable somehow. Over the years the head stories have gotten so ridiculous that I've had to notice them for what garbage they are (or appear to be). The bottom line is they are all imaginary tales and none of it is actually happening! I am simpy focused more on whats not happening than what is happening.

Why do you want it?

I would like to get out of this mental realm for one thing. Another thing is that I am very very interested in what the heck is actually going on here. There's all these people (7+ billion of us) and we don't seem to have a clue about any existence beyond our little 70 or 80 year span. Before and after that we have no idea. I would like to see more.

What will it do for you?

Hopefully I can live based more on reality rather than the garbage realm that the head is creating. Some sort of ease and acceptance of things would be nice. Maybe more love, compassion and understanding for all of us. Other than that, as long as its reality, I'm interested.

What do you believe it might look like?

Can't say for sure, but it seems there would be some sort of ring of truth about it. If its reality, wouldn't it?
I have had a couple of experiences/glimpses where I saw that everything was absolutely perfect just as it is right now. The good was still good if you wanted to look at it that way, and the bad was still bad if you wanted to look at it that way, but together it all equaled perfection. Not sure these glimpses were reality or not but it seemed to be.

[clearskye]

Hi Rick,
Ah--full answers we can work with! Thank you.

Over the years the head stories have gotten so ridiculous that I've had to notice them for what garbage they are (or appear to be). The bottom line is they are all imaginary tales and none of it is actually happening! I am simpy focused more on whats not happening than what is happening.

It is wonderful that you are already noticing the mind's craziness. Minds, in general, run most people, and we move through life not in touch with life itself.
Question: Do you have any control over the arising of thoughts at all? Or do they simply show up, full-blown, and then you notice them?

I would like to get out of this mental realm for one thing.

Well, hate to burst your bubble on this one. The mind will continue to yammer. We need to simply not get on the mind train, and stop believing it! Let it roll on by. Over time, it may quiet, or it may not.
Offering: Noticing is awareness's way of being. Notice, as the mind train streaks by, the spaces between the cars.
The mind is a conflict machine. It is good for sensible tasks--making lists, finding the right word, getting up through the room without bumping into the table. Where it causes great problem is in the realm of flights of fancy--or nightmare--and then feelings glom on to the thoughts, and we are off and running. That is the source of suffering.

Another thing is that I am very very interested in what the heck is actually going on here. There's all these people (7+ billion of us) and we don't seem to have a clue about any existence beyond our little 70 or 80 year span. Before and after that we have no idea. I would like to see more.

You speak of "before and after," which suggests that time is real.
Offering: When has it ever been any time but NOW?

Hopefully I can live based more on reality rather than the garbage realm that the head is creating. Some sort of ease and acceptance of things would be nice. Maybe more love, compassion and understanding for all of us. Other than that, as long as its reality, I'm interested.

Yes. Realistic hope, Rick. And curiosity (interest) is a lovely quality of awareness. Cultivate curiosity. It is a friend.

Can't say for sure, but it seems there would be some sort of ring of truth about it. If its reality, wouldn't it?
I have had a couple of experiences/glimpses where I saw that everything was absolutely perfect just as it is right now.

Trust your glimpses. The mind wants to jump in immediately--question, label, argue. That's just the mind's play.
Offering: Watch how quick the mind is, wanting to label, make something of it. Report back on that.

You are right on track.
with love,
Skye
PS What about changing that subject line??

[Rickster]

Question: Do you have any control over the arising of thoughts at all? Or do they simply show up, full-blown, and then you notice them?

I don't seem to have any control over the arising of thoughts. Sometimes if I really focus on it I can slow them down or stop them, but its only for a few moments. Sometimes I just find myself in the middle of a nasty thought storm with no noticing of it coming or of me falling into it. Other times smaller thoughts seem to link to other similar thoughts which can build up into bigger storm.

Offering: Noticing is awareness's way of being. Notice, as the mind train streaks by, the spaces between the cars.

Yes, I have been playing with this technique lately and it seems to work. What I do is just pause thoughts for a second to get started. Then I notice what the next thought is that comes up. I take note of it and then look for the next thought. There is definitely some empty space between the thoughts and this technique seems to slow down the thoughts. (Just something I've been playing around with) I do not see anything interesting in the gaps, except for the absence of thoughts.

Offering: When has it ever been any time but NOW?

FYI, this "time is only an illusion" topic is interesting but I have never had any experience of it. Time seems real enough to me. I also believe I am most likely wrong and I'm looking forward to seeing through this some day. And I can't argue with the fact that its always NOW.

Offering: Watch how quick the mind is, wanting to label, make something of it. Report back on that.

I've been working this angle quite a bit lately too. I think I see how it works. It simply claims everything that goes by, therefore it can claim control. For example, if I decide to stop at a store on the way home, or if I decide not to stop at the store, whichever option happens, the mind just claims it made the decision. So its covered either way. Its can claim control very easily just by claiming everything. The things that go right justify its power and wisdom and control, and the things that go wrong, well.... something or somebody else screwed it up!

And for the labelling, yes it pigeon holes everything it sees almost instantly: "Oh, its going to be one of those days." or the ever popular "Oh, its one of THOSE people."

PS What about changing that subject line??

Sure. How do we do that? If you can do it go right ahead. Or I will if I know how. (I would love to be wrong about that subject line!)


Thanks for your help,
Rick

PS: I am enjoying this and looking forward to addressing some of my blindspots, sticking points and whatnot.

[clearskye]

Hi Rick,

I don't seem to have any control over the arising of thoughts.

I don't either.

nasty thought storm

Love this image! Sure can get nasty, can't it.

I do not see anything interesting in the gaps, except for the absence of thoughts.

Ah--the mind is looking for objects, for things that come and go. Here we are looking for what never comes and goes--for what is consistently, reliably, here.

"Oh, its one of THOSE people."

Chuckling out loud.

Okay, I changed the subject line--but feel free to make it what you want. Simply change it in the full editor at the top.

Now--let's look at feelings, Rick. Do you have control over feelings? Or do they just arise, and then stick themselves to thoughts? Look and see.
with love,
Skye

[Rickster]

Do you have control over feelings? Or do they just arise, and then stick themselves to thoughts?

I can't say that I have much control over feelings either. I can suppress them (somewhat) as long as they're not too powerful. The really fiery ones are easy to analyze. When an angry thought storm is blowing about how I'm getting dis'ed at work, or dis'ed somewhere else, the feelings are going hand in hand with the thoughts. If the scene changes to more rage, more anger, the feelings ramp up accordingly. Until its over, or I snap myself out of it, I am essentially absent from the real world. Its kind of like a trance - absolute focus and attention. It takes a lot of energy!

Looking at the more pleasant feelings, they also seem to rise up on their own and pass on their own without any control by me. Usually they are associated with thoughts, but occassionally nice feelings come up for no apparent reason.
Are feelings and emotions the same thing?

Thanks,
Rick

[clearskye]

Hi Rick,
interesting, I changed the subject line, but it reverted. Perhaps we're stuck with it!

Feelings can mean emotions, or they can simply mean the sensations we get in our body. In the way I was using it, I meant emotions. But good to clarify.

A valuable tool: when emotions arise, return to the sensations in the body and notice those (tight gut, hot head, whatever it is), and let whatever label occurred rest, and don't give the label energy.

I want you to spend the next day noticing how thoughts and emotions attach to each other, and report back.

with love,
Skye
changed the subject line again... yes, I'm persistent. A quality of this body-mind!

[Rickster]

I'm persistent. A quality of this body-mind!

I'm glad to here that because I plan on persisting with this until the end. I hope you can take it ;-)

The feelings have to be fairly intense or they don't even register. Subtle gut feelings that many people use to guide them are mostly useless to me. I've never learned to notice or read them.

In a normal day my most obvious feelings/emotions come from being aggravated by some little event.
Event: Broke a glass in the sink. Thought: That shouldn't have happened. Feeling: Quick nervous shock shoots through the whole body.
Event: Dropped a wad of paper, which rolled into a mouse trap and set it off, making a loud snapping noise. Thought: That shouldn't have happened. Feeling: Pissed. Same physical irritation.
Event: Computer does something stupid. Thought: Aggravation. It shouldn't do that. Feeling: Exasperated.

A typical day is a couple dozen of these little irritations plus a few big irritations caused by thought storms.
Overall I don't seem to notice any feelings/emotions that are not associated with thoughts or events.
I will try to observe them more, as you suggested, and see if I can stop putting so much energy into them.
Thanks,
Rick

[clearskye]

This is available RIGHT NOW! I'm so glad that you plan to see it through.
Fascinating to me about feelings not registering. Guess I'm pretty much the opposite. ;-)

and see if I can stop putting so much energy into them.

Once you start to see that thoughts and feelings come and go, and are not permanent in any way, you will naturally stop putting energy into them. We want that-which-doesn't-change, that which is reliable, and always present.

Nice that you are watching this pattern of irritation. Question: are you sure the thought always comes first, after, say, dropping the glass? What about the feeling arising, and then thought labeling the incident? See if that occurs, too.

Also notice:

That shouldn't have happened.

But it already has! Resisting what-is is the direct root to suffering. Of course, if something occurs and we want to prevent it in the future, we take steps to insure that. But resisting what is already here is a form of madness that we all participate in. Look and see. (I used to be the queen of that.)

with love,
Skye

[Rickster]

Once you start to see that thoughts and feelings come and go, and are not permanent in any way, you will naturally stop putting energy into them.

That makes sense and I've been watching how the thought system works for quite some time now. I can see how it works, but so far there has been no significant relief. But then again maybe there has. Its hard to think back about how I was doing six months ago and then compare that to now. I suppose there has been some lessening of the focus on thoughts.

Question: are you sure the thought always comes first, after, say, dropping the glass? What about the feeling arising, and then thought labeling the incident?

Yes, I'm surprised I missed that. The labeling definitely comes last. Ignoring the order of things is probably very helpful for the ego sham.

But it already has! Resisting what-is is the direct root to suffering.

Yes, but knowing that hasn't caused any change. The system rolls right along. It doesn't care about truth.

Thanks,
Rick

[clearskye]

Hi Rick,

The labeling definitely comes last.

The mind jumps in to claim ownership, and labeling is its way. Watch that now.

The system rolls right along. It doesn't care about truth.

Correct. In fact, "mind" is terrified of being found out. The one place it cannot stand is in the light of truth. As this unfolded for me, thoughts still grab and label, but seeing that, "I" don't get involved. Just let the mind train do its thing.

Expecting relief gets in the way, Rick. Just keep seeing how it works. Be the noticing! Stand as the noticing.

with love,
Skye