hi, i think i'm ready!

[No_One]

So when you look there is no I to be found. But still a feeling that this is you. But when you don't look the I is back. Something like that?

[josh]

yes, when not "looking" the distribution and mode of attention shifts such that the feeling is more compelling. there isn't really such a thing as "not looking" whether you are making an effort to pay attention or not there is still something there in what is being experienced. when i make that effort to pay attention though, the mode shifts such that sensations are seen more clearly to be just physically felt things.

[No_One]

So even if you're not looking is there a real I or just a feeling of an I / a thought of an I?

[josh]

just the feeling component. although it is not perceived as such unless i make that effort to examine feelings directly.

[No_One]

Who is making the effort to examine feelings?

[josh]

ah, i shouldn't have phrased that last bit as i did, when i'm in the actual act of paying attention to the feeling there is not the illusion that "i" am paying attention to the feelings, there are just the feelings.

[No_One]

Cool ... just wanted to make sure that's clear. So do you exist Josh?

[josh]

no, but i'm far from satisfied with just that understanding.

[No_One]

What are your expectations related to this? How would you know you're 'done'?

[josh]

Done with direct pointing?
when i either realize that its final goal is something i've already achieved or i attain some big, noticeable change in my perception.

Done with this path of psychological stuff/no-self/spirituality?
when i no longer have suffering, i can expand on this if you'd like. but first i'd like to know if in your estimation i've already achieved the 'final goal' of direct pointing through my other practice. if not, just continue with the one on one, if so please let me know ;)

[No_One]

Just wanted to check the expectations. Nope ... don't feel you're there yet but might be wrong. About suffering ... do you suffer? What's wrong with suffering?

[josh]

I suffer, defining suffering as any form of compulsion by unpleasant feeling, any sensation that could be said to be a disincentive not to ignore desire would be suffering.

what's wrong with suffering? well, i frankly can't tell you. there is nothing 'sine qua non' bad about suffering. but i dislike it, and see no reason to interfere with my natural tendency to eliminate things which i dislike.

[No_One]

Is there a you to suffer? How do you want to eliminate suffering? Have you ever fully met suffering? How can you eliminate an enemy that you have no idea how it looks like? Just let it set in and see what suffering is about.

[josh]

is there a you to suffer?
it isn't (and i don't perceive) that it is 'me' who is experiencing the suffering. it is simply that there is suffering present here, in this field of experience.

how do you want to eliminate suffering?
I'm not sure, when you say "how" are you asking about my wanting or about how i plan to eliminate it? if you are asking how i experience the desiring of eliminating suffering then i experience it as an unpleasant and compelling physical sensation.

if you want to know how i plan to eliminate it, i was hoping that the final goal of direct pointing might actually be that end, and maybe it is, but also you might define suffering differently.

have you ever fully met suffering?
yes i think so, although i can't be sure i've experienced your definition of "meeting." i've experienced suffering, i've tried to understand its qualities, its conditions, and the way to its extinction. is this what you mean by fully meeting it? could you be more specific?

How can you eliminate an enemy that you have no idea how it looks like?
i think i know what it looks like, i've experienced it in many different forms and tried to understand its causes. does this fit your definition of knowing what it looks like?

[josh]

Just let it set in and see what suffering is about.

i think i already know what it's about, my practice up till this direct pointing has been entirely based on observing this suffering from the perspective that
a. it is extinguishable
b. it is not-self