hi, i think i'm ready!

[josh]

alright, quick introduction. i've been doing different sorts of practices aimed at eliminating the self. most of them are centered around paying attention to experience and noticing the characteristic of no-self in things/noticing the fact that suffering arises from the self. i've been aware of self, and i've been told it's an illusion, but i've never quite seen through it in any big way, there hasn't been a eureka moment in which i finally see clearly that I dont exist.

alright, so yes, i think i'm ready, i've seen the self and i've seen the suffering it causes, i'm ready

[josh]

am i doing this wrong? i noticed other threads seem to ask specific 'liberators' for help rather than just give an open announcement of readiness.

[No_One]

Hi Josh! Welcome. Let's do it then. Let's see what's real and what is it that we assume. So when you say 'I move my hand' what does that mean? What are the facts? Move your hand, look and see what can be seen. Who is moving the hand? How does the hand move? Is there a controller?

[josh]

alright. it seems as if i am in fact moving the hand. there is a hand, and it moves, sometimes without me being aware. but when i make a purposeful movement, like when i just sit here and try to move it, it certainly seems that i am.

certainly it is my brain sending a signal to muscles and my hand moves. when i have an itch and am absent minded, my brain does this and there is nothing telling me that it is "me" who moves it. when i do a purposeful and voluntary movement some signal is telling me that it is i who moves it. what that signal is i really can't put my finger on. the signal seems to be strengthened when i am doing something very purposeful, less so when i start waving my hands around, even less so when i absently scratch myself. but i can't figure out what it is.

[No_One]

What are the facts Josh? What can be seen? Can you see the brain comanding the hand? Can you see that you move the hand? Just list actions / thoughts / feelings / ? that are seen. The rest are assumptions / projections.

[josh]

ok, no, i don't actually perceive anything that is the brain commanding the hand. i can't see anything that is telling me i move the hand. there is some sort of volition, some intention to move the hand. there is a choice exactly when to move the hand, but i'm not actually seeing or aware of any thought like "move the hand." when i think that thought it just presents as internal speech and the hand moves. when i try and move the hand though, it just moves, i perceive nothing but the movement

[No_One]

OK ... so we see the hand moving and a feeling that 'I moved the hand'. Cool. Look at thoughts now. Where do they come from? Where do they go? Do you think them? What are the facts and what are the assumptions?

[josh]

well, i guess they come from perceptions. i perceive something, a thought occurs. i perceive that you say "so we see the hand moving and a feeling that 'i moved the hand'." and i think "well i didn't actually say that i had that feeling."
where do the thoughts go? they just seem to die, they might spawn another thought, but that one too just dies shortly.

[No_One]

Is that what you see? Or is that the interpretation of what you see? We don't usually look at reality, we look & analyse. Just look at thoughts and see what is seen and what are the assumptions

[josh]

assumptions about what? about where they come from/go? i don't think i have any assumptions there, never thought about thinking in those terms. if i see something, and there is some need to "figure out" something then thoughts occur. i'm not sure what i'd be interpreting or analyzing or assuming here.

[No_One]

OK ... close the eyes and look at thoughts. What do you see?

[josh]

woops, my bad didn't notice that there was a page 2. ok, closing my eyes, looking at thoughts.

...

first few thoughts were about what i'd write... thinking i'd start about by writing that. then i thought about writing down my other thoughts. those were my thoughts. could you give me something more specific to look for? it seems like you just asked this question a couple posts ago. i answered and then you asked me if those were my assumptions. i said no and then you asked again.

here is what i wrote before

well, i guess they come from perceptions. i perceive something, a thought occurs. i perceive that you say "so we see the hand moving and a feeling that 'i moved the hand'." and i think "well i didn't actually say that i had that feeling."
where do the thoughts go? they just seem to die, they might spawn another thought, but that one too just dies shortly.

that hasn't really changed. the specific thoughts aren't the same but the thoughts have the same qualities, except they are taking on some emotional content like irritation/frustration.

[No_One]

How do you know you think them? Can you see the I that thinks them? How does that I look like, what does it do?

[josh]

no, can't see the I, when i observe the thoughts they occur simply as sensations. the I doesn't look like anything because i can't see it. there is however a subtle message from certain sensations telling me at all times that "I" exist. when i stop trying to look at them my attention focuses on them and subliminal message becomes more convincing. when i look directly at them they appear to be just sensations.

[josh]

to clarify, i mean that when i look directly at the field of experience i stop focusing on them, naturally my attention rests on them and whatever other sensations I feel are important