Ready to dive in...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:44 pm

who is this "I" that gets triggered?
Is it an I that gets triggered ?
The organism (meat sack) has conditioned responses. The triggers certainly pull in old story lines that reinforce the notion of an I, but look and see just what the triggers evoke.
there's a desire to SEE this rather than THINK it arising
The only way that you will know that you have SEEN it is through thought. Thought accompanied by a sensation of recognition. A resonating.
why does an absolute HERE/NOW (which seems to be what THIS is it points to) extinguish the possibility of a self? is it because HERE/NOW cannot contain story
Yes. Every time i go to answer your questions, i find that you have 'taken the word from my mouth' in your next sentence.
and self requires story?
Self IS story.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:37 pm

look and see just what the triggers evoke
triggers evoke LOTS of thinking (usually framed in terms of YOU vs. ME)...
and intense sensation in the body (energy in the limbs, contraction at the heart and throat, unease in the belly)...
these thoughts and feelings twist up into a strong compelling sense of being under attack in some way...

the thinking and the sense of being under attack are obviously story.
the bodily feelings feed and are fed by the story.
Thought accompanied by a sensation of recognition. A resonating.
This is helpful-- thoughts remain as processor of experiencing, even if they no longer dominate and define experience.
Self IS story.
ok ok ok. right. what the heck is preventing the total acceptance of this...?!

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:37 pm

ok ok ok. right. what the heck is preventing the total acceptance of this...?!
i read this a few minutes ago and wondered if there might be a trigger in here for you.
i pinched it from the truthlesstruth blog;
(If) we cannot accept what “is”. We cannot enlighten ourselves. Trying to accept is like trying to let go by grasping. The only way to accept what “is” is to trust and to fall in love with what “is”. So, the only reason we cannot be “here, now”, cannot find “meaning” in life, is because we don’t trust and love it unconditionally. Solitude, silence, meditation, chanting, rituals, psychedelics, etc. have been used for millennia to develop this trust and fall more and more in love with what “is”.

So, to be enlightened is to be a lover of life (or to be “intimate with all things”, as the great Zen Master Dogen put it). Such a person lives for life’s sake and not for any particular purpose. Life becomes its own purpose, just as the lover’s sole purpose of life is to be in the presence of the Beloved. When life is loved unconditionally there is no point in changing it, and so, all striving ceases. This marks a new beginning.

In the same spirit, Albert Camus’ answer to his own philosophical question was: “live to the point of tears”.

love, love, love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:54 pm

When life is loved unconditionally there is no point in changing it, and so, all striving ceases.
at the moment loving life unconditionally includes loving quite a bit of disorientation, disconnection and distractedness. yet striving to love this stuff misses the mark too...

at least the sun starts coming back tomorrow-- another story, but one that i'm fond of...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:46 pm

loving life unconditionally includes loving quite a bit of disorientation, disconnection and distractedness.
Yes, i guess this will always be the case. Here, this is still an active puzzle. i 'know' (believe?) that all of the shit happening in the world is OK, but i just can't reconcile it in my story. i also know that what i see 'out there' is in fact, a projection and that it really is a metaphor for what is internal. ..or that there really is NO 'out there'. It is all 'in here'.
But rather than disbelieve it, i just live with the puzzle and am open to SEEing how it works. Just witness it...
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:39 pm

ixturtle wrote:loving life unconditionally includes loving quite a bit of disorientation, disconnection and distractedness.
when i wrote the above i was referencing my internal experience so it was funny to read your response, which looked instead to the external, which is of course certainly perplexing and often overwhelming. but reconciling the story of the world with nonseparation feels beside the point when my own story seems to be in a tailspin. i'm as close to dropping this as i've ever been. i won't (unless you or another guide thinks it would be best to give this a rest for a while) but that's the story that's showing up in the mind right now.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:53 pm

but reconciling the story of the world with nonseparation feels beside the point when my own story seems to be in a tailspin.
Hmm, the point i'm making it that the external can tell us what is occurring internally.
i'm as close to dropping this as i've ever been.
First reaction is "NOoo". Second thought is "maybe a break would be advantageous." Third thought is "maybe another guide, another perspective might 'do it'. "
Fourth thought is "it will decide itself."
my own story seems to be in a tailspin.
Are they new or old stories that feed the story of the tailspin ?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:37 pm

the point i'm making it that the external can tell us what is occurring internally.
an internal landscape made up of bombs and school massacres and endless trash heaps not only feels seriously depressing, it feels about right at the moment.
an internal landscape that also includes trees and meadows and moonlight feels like there's a bit more space. like maybe that wisdom is here too.
Fourth thought is "it will decide itself."
ok.
Are they new or old stories that feed the story of the tailspin ?
old stories. which, combined with a newer laziness/permission of not wanting to have to do anything for anyone including myself anymore, appears to be rather toxic. normally i would drag myself to a mat or cushion but even that feels like a dead end-- just an attempt to mend something irreparable broken. sigh. sorry to be such a downer, especially since it shows up in your "internal"... sigh again.

thanks for being there.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:56 pm

sorry to be such a downer, especially since it shows up in your "internal"
No need for "sorry". It's me doing it to me. You are my story. (but thankyou for the concern i am expressing though that story)
Even post gate, the unpleasant sensations are not pleasant, but 'knowing' that they are as 'legitimate' as the pleasant ones helps to put them into the perspective of message carrier. This often 'short circuits' the feedback loop that spirals us down into overwhelming emotion.
Facing it, pushing on into it is the quickest way back to pleasantness. Avoidance prolongs it and puts you in a victim stance, waiting for external circumstances to 'fix' it.
It is you, trying to help you. Not bad. Not good. Just IS.
Has it anything to do with Christmas ?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:09 pm

Has it anything to do with Christmas ?
Well, if a butterfly's wings in Mexico affect the weather in China, I suppose Christmas is at play here. Maybe a bit more than that (Boeing 747 in Mexico?), but its not central-- perhaps intensifies a feeling of disconnection.

i keep just coming back to "this is how it is right now" and a few tiny moments of curiosity about what will happen in the next moment. there is a sense though that the "this is how it is and i don't need to change it" is less a reflection of a "hands off the tiller" seeing and more about "hands firmly on the tiller headed straight for a cliff"... but i suppose both are stories anyway and it doesn't really matter. if there is no hand and there is no tiller, then there is probably no cliff...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:03 pm

a feeling of disconnection.
Would you describe this "disconnection" as an existential hole ?
It is quite common for people to go through a period of feeling that 'nothing means anything' and why bother to do anything, etc. (often referred to as 'the dark night of the soul')
"hands firmly on the tiller headed straight for a cliff"
There is a certain similarity to 'jumping from that plane' here, though 'jumping' has a sense of willingness, where as the cliff requires complete victim status.
The story associated with jumping is very much one of discovery and open to possibilities, where as the story associated with the cliff is predetermined doom.
The cliff (in previous experience here) is a way to radically change the status quo. We can't do it ourselves (or think we can't) so a crisis will precipitate it.
There is an element of 'self fulfilling prophecy' in the cliff scenario.
No hands on the tiller, turns the cliff into the plane.
No hands, no tiller, no cliff & no Rebecca are still just story for you (yet). If you SEE this, then it isn't story, but then we wouldn't be having this interchange (or whatever it is).

love and compassion here.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:43 pm

thank you as always for seeing through the story and offering just the right words.

must be christmas (big story that one!) there already so if you and your family celebrate, merry christmas.

best,
ix

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:17 pm

thank you as always for seeing through the story and offering just the right words.
i don't do it. ..must be you, me, us, ALL, IT, IS...
so if you and your family celebrate,
'celebration' days are a good reminder to celebrate EVERY day.
Happy/Merry every day to you and yours. (& everybody)

Image
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:34 pm

Would you describe this "disconnection" as an existential hole ?
there's an existential quality to it but it's tightly interwoven with old stories-- more helpless than purposeless, really, though there is purposelessness too. it has receded a bit through no doing of my own. like the tide.
'jumping' has a sense of willingness, where as the cliff requires complete victim status.
yes, could see the victim status quite vividly.

easy to experience hand off tiller as having a victim quality, but instead you point to more a sense of "WHEEEE!" sometimes that sense is accessible and sometimes it isn't.
'celebration' days are a good reminder to celebrate EVERY day.
when the WHEEEEE is here, i feel and know and practice this (and preach it from the mountain tops). when it isn't, there's more a sense of drowning. i suppose SEEing would be able to include both of these... as you said before, both are legitimate.

funny thing was just the other day in the shower i said to myself that i was ready to say YES to whatever showed up and then a small ego thing happened that triggered a ginormous NOOOOOOOO! and then there was judgement for the "no", and a slip sliding into quite the abyss of old resistance and new resistance, all wrapped up in SELF SELF SELF SELF.

the photo of course is very sweet, and also a trigger of its own-- ha ha ha.

so ready to be done with this. if there were a door marked "jumping door" i would no hesitate. fear is not the obstacle, confusion is (though perhaps confusion is a mask for fear?) you would say the door is simply here and now, or this is it. but how to jump into what's already here?

i'm not much of a pray-er, but how does that figure in?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:03 am

i'm not much of a pray-er, but how does that figure in?
Prayer is different things for everybody. If you are asking some paternal figure For some gift that will make you happy...
On the other hand, if you are 'opening' yourself to 'the great mystery' without expectations...
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info


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