Help needed

[annarodriguez]

Today was a good day.
Knowing I can't write anything down which is not just a thought happening inside me, not being sure of what that me is.

Is there any you in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Want to say no and I just did but, hmmmm.
There is not a person called Anna, thinking the thoughts, doing the things. It happens on it's own in a flow, but I think there's still identifying with something? that is watching that happen. That's why it's 'lost' when I go on with daily, busy life, because the identifying then simply shifts to the little 'me' again.

So when I sit still, there is no me in any way, shape or form. I can see it was never like that. But it's from a witnessing position, there is a seperation between what's witnessed and the -let's call it awareness- it arises in.
I can understand that whatever is making me belief that, are just thoughts and feelings, but it is so until it's seen.

Just looking at thoughts and feeling, trying to feel the seperation and where it's supposed to be happening if it was and I understand intellectualy it's not.

Any pointers?

Anna

[annarodriguez]

Im glad that this seeing is happening, Anna

What did you mean by this sentence?

Anna

[annarodriguez]

What is this what we are?
Is it outside the body-mind? How would one know that it is also outside it's own body?
Can we only perceive through bodily perceptions? And if so why aren't we seperated then?
I can't 'see' what you are thinking, or feel what you are feeling. Thoughts for 'Anna' happen only here. But doesn't that still mean that it could be just chemical processes inside a seperate brain. You see what I mean?
I agree with the fact that there was never a person called Anna inside this body, (maybe just chemical processes inside the body) but the all oneness is not experienced and acknowledged.
Do you experience everything as being the Self? And how is that experience in daily life?

I'm still very okay, taking it slowly. Watching things happen.
Above is something i've been wondering about for a while now. Do you have any articles I can read about seperation, or books maybe, can you explain something about it?
I know this seems like avoiding investigation, but some pointers could be helpful?

Right now: Sitting on the same chair again. Typing, not really thinking about what I'm gonna write, although there is a lot of deleting and re-writing.
Scratching my head. Knowing that because thought tells me it's that. Pure experience just sensates, if senstates is a word.
Walking is fun. If one walks and really notices feet, it's like walking is happening inside itself.

AHA! Wait a minute. Is that a clue to the not being seperate?
Tapping my fingers now..., but still, only this body can feel that.
Kinda confused. Don't know what to think.

[Nick]

When I said seeing is happening, I meant that it seemed like you were getting it, but now you seem to be saying no.

I understand your question because it has bothered me in the past too. "If we are all one, then why does only THIS person appear, only THESE thoughts?"

You are expecting that EVERYTHING should be known by 'you'... But this you is not able to know. It is not a subject or knower, but rather an object, something known. Known by what? You tell me.

You asked about my daily experience. It is no different from yours. Wake up, work, family, eat, shit, sleep. Happy feelings appear, calm feelings, angry, sad, etc. I guess if there's a difference it's one of perspective.

You asked for books or articles. I recommend you continue self-inquiry without allowing the distractions of reading many spiritual books or watching videos for right now. Do you have the "enlightening quotes" phone app? That can be fun, little pointers to help you.

Nick

[annarodriguez]

You are expecting that EVERYTHING should be known by 'you'... But this you is not able to know. It is not a subject or knower, but rather an object, something known. Known by what? You tell me

This feels like a riddle, a braincracker. I know it probably is not, but it feels like it :)
This you, you are talking about is this the body/mind? The complete package, body/mind, thus senses and thought?
Does this mean that what I am is known and so not myself? Am I known by something different than myself?
Do you have any pointers on how to investigate.

When I said seeing is happening, I meant that it seemed like you were getting it, but now you seem to be saying no.

Sometimes I feel like I'm getting it and that is that I think that there is nothing to get. Nothing can be grasped and held to say: this is it!
But some moments seem much more clear than other moments. Sometimes it feels like I am very close, at other I could not be further away. Of course knowing that I'm not actually going anywhere. And it's always here.

You asked about my daily experience. It is no different from yours. Wake up, work, family, eat, shit, sleep. Happy feelings appear, calm feelings, angry, sad, etc. I guess if there's a difference it's one of perspective.

Are you shitting? Really? That's strange, I never do, I think it smells.

I guess if there's a difference it's one of perspective.

Yes, exactly. I'm already very clear on the fact that I'm going to be eating, sleeping, shitting, working, be sad, be bored for the rest of my life. So I'm no longer looking for special experiences, really. No longer fantasizing about floating in the air or having other special powers. I guess I have to live with the fact that I'm never going to be BatgirI. It's ordinary life, it's now and now and now and now. I'm no longer looking outside of my own experience, how could I, since that is the only one there is. I can't change anything about my experience now. I could only stop banging my head against the wall if I didn't appreciate that feeling. :D
But of course it's the perspective I'm curious about.
do you want to tell me anything about that or is that something for me to find out.
I was not asking for many books or articles to keep 'me' busy. Just wondering, which direction to go in.
Thanx again.

Anna

[Nick]

Yeah my question could be worded another way because the word 'known' can imply a 'knower', try it like this:

"you" are not the experiencer. You are just a set of experiences. WHERE does experience of you happen?

[annarodriguez]

Thanks,

I'll look into that today.

Last couple of days feels like something has shifted a little bit.
I'm affraid of saying so, because it could be imagination. And also life has a funny way of showing me that whenever I 'think' something is a certain way, that it's actually the opposite or at least very different. I'm always reminded that it's never what I think.
But anyway, last couple of days I've felt more laidback and also thoughts seem to be more in the background since I realized thoughts are byproduct and I'm no longer very interested in WHAT thoughts are saying, but I'm just feeling thought out.
And life in itself becomes interesting. Walking, talking, thinking.
And it's just wonderous how something like LU can excist, I mean that people are writing each other over a subject like this, but there are also sooooo many other subject people are writing, thinking, talking about. People are just writing, hahaha, no matter what subject. I don't know how to explain, but it all seems so funny to me at times.

Anyway, back to business.
It's just something I thought I'd share. But once again, tomorrow can be very different even in an hour I could be upstairs, very frustrated because I'm trying to notice WHERE the experience of me happens. And I won't remember why I would've written something like above down.
And I still understand that everything should be about direct experience.
And I'm still grateful for your feedback.

Anna

[annarodriguez]

Where does experience of me happen?

I'll answer from direct experience now hoping you can nudge me in the right direction.

It doesn't happen anywhere in the sense that it can't be really located and at the sametime everywhere, because that's the only way to know the world. There is no escaping experience.
Seeing a cup beside the comp. screen. Picking it up, drinking the drink. Thinking about it now of course. I guess there is no way to ever know anything in the sense that it's always thought, feeling or sensing. There's no more 'information' then there is now.
I don't know if this makes sense. It makes sense to me now. But I don't really know what it implies.
And it does not really answer your question I guess, because you are getting at by what this object (me) is known.

[annarodriguez]

I'm slowly getting used to the question:

Still, can't answer it.
I'm only the experience.

It is again very clear to me that there is no 'me' seperate from thought or feeling. So, it's always thought or feeling.
I guess that's why children are usually so relaxed, so natural. Because they don't have this massive thought/feeling structure built up. They react very primal also, cause they are not trying to be so socially correct all the time.

But again: still can't answer that question, is there an answer?
Could use a big nudge by now :)

[Nick]

Great, Anna.

You said "I'm only experience".

Look right there. I understand why you word it this way. It's a way to express it. But what does the 'I' in this sentence really signify? Go one more step. What if you drop that I part? Same with all the thoughts and feelings. Can they happen on their own without being your thoughts, your feelings? Just watch the I drop away. Watch as the false sense of being a watcher drops away. Everything will be just like it already is.

Nick

[annarodriguez]

Hi Nick,

I really get what you're saying.
Drop the I part: what remains? Thoughts, feelings.
Am I sitting on a chair? No there's sitting and if there's real honesty there's just a feeling in the body, and we CALL it sitting. We call it a body and we call it a feeling. Words to communicate.
Am I seeing the plant?... dammit!!!! Why is seeing such a struggle!!! Same with thinking!!!! And it's not a struggle, because that sentence is just a thought. Where is the g*ddamn struggle right now... nowhere, just eyebrows up real high and buttocks clenched together, but no struggle anywhere in the room.

I read other posts today, even yours, I didn't know you were on there, Ive tried to find something about you before, but could not.
I read this one about a girl, don't remember her name, she was kind of in the same place I am now, but then she saw that there is not really an inside or an outside. Just experiencing.
I know it's not really a great idea to read other peoples post. Since comparing starts to happen.
I even read our whole thread again. Kind of feel sorry for you, since I never seem to answer any question directly. I thought I was and it was sincere but boy, am I beating around the bush. Tired of my own stories.
Since it's all thought and feeling. I get that, really, really, really.
So the sentence, she was kind of in the same place as I am is just a thought and I know you are going to point that out to me :)

Why, if I know that me is just a story, am I not convinced. It's because I still think there is an I that has to be convinced right? Don't know how to get past that. And getting past it is just another thought.

But what does the 'I' in this sentence really signify?

The I signifies a bunch of feelings and thoughts. It's not a real excisting I. And it never excisted.

Does the frustration bother me? Yes it does, because there's not just seeing and not just thinking. There's an I SEEMINGLY still operating.

Is frustration just another thought, a label that we give to a certain kind of feeling? Yes. Does it happen to something/body. Let me look into that again, sigh.

You see where I'm stuck?
I wish I had better news. I really do.

[annarodriguez]

Okay, have calmed down.

I can see my arm... Who sees the arm? Is there a little me who sees the arm, is there anything seperate that sees the arm?
No. Who said no? Thoughts are coming up now saying: I said no, I said no.
Is there anything seperate saying: I said no? Thoughts are tumbling over each other again saying: yes there is, yes there is. Who is the one noticing these thoughts?

Pressure in the chest now, restless, thoughts are tumbling.

Who knows these thoughts? Who knows that pressure in the chest?
Is it seperate?

From a logical point of view: I can never answer the question who knows these thoughts.
Because whatever answer that came up, would be a thought. So it can't be called. There is no name for it.
If you would put a gun to my head and make me say something I would choose: experiencing.

Is it seperate?
Again from a logical point of view. Just reasoning.
It cannot be seperate. If it would be something seperate, it could be observed and it can't be observed, by what would it be observed? That which observes can never be observed. Is it then observing? There must be something aware of these thoughts/feelings oooooo, really puzzled here.

So back to your question:

"you" are not the experiencer. You are just a set of experiences. WHERE does experience of you happen?

It happens only in experiencing? Only through experiencing do I know myself, whatever that is?

These answers are all from reasoning, trying to find out by direct experience. Can this be reasoned?

Some people have some experiences, a belief drops away, seperation falls away, life becomes more fluid. Sometimes, they don't have words for what happened yet. Later, by reasoning, they can express what happened.

Can this be reasoned upfront, then later thoughts and feelings re-allign with the reasoning?

Anna

[Nick]

Good, good.
Notice how every "answer" that you're grasping at again and again is another thought, a thought, a thought....
Notice how the sense of "grasping" or "trying" is a subtle thought.

look for WHERE its all happening, as in a physical location. Is it inside or outside? Everywhere, nowhere, here, there? What do you find?

[annarodriguez]

Want to say inside, that's my first reaction. But that's the uninvestigated reaction.
Because, I have to ask inside what. Inside this body? This body is just a concept. Body is A name, a name we gave to certain experiences.
This body itself is experienced and I only experience it some of the time in some form or another. I'm not constantly aware of the body, sometimes I'm aware of thoughts.
Thoughts 'float' by. 'Float' by what? Who calls it floating. Thought does.
So there is some'thing' -that can't be named so is not a thing- aware of these experiences.
What is aware? is there anything that has an awarenessquality to it?
Like u said, any answer that follows is just another thought. So when I don't ask thought, I'm left with just seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking etc. But this does not make me say: AHA! I guess you'll maybe say that it does not need AHA! But I can say there's not really seeing through. I can understand better that there is no Gate, oops, I just really got it. How stupid am I. Gateless Gate. If it's gateless, there is no gate. Haha, that's funny.
Maybe it was because of the english that I didn't REALLY get that, get now where it stands for. Or maybe I'm just slow, that's probably it, since I'm at least taking 8 pages, to 'get this.' Haha.
I feel I'm close but there is still something that 'needs to be dropped.' And I know that <------ is just a thought.

Notice how every "answer" that you're grasping at again and again is another thought, a thought, a thought....
Notice how the sense of "grasping" or "trying" is a subtle thought.

This is helpful, as well as saying that everything is exactly the same after seeing.

Anna
I'm sorry, I can feel I'm staring at it, something's just not adding up.

[Nick]

This "person" that's staring at it but doesn't get it, does she exist?

You're describing a situation with two "poles" like the north and south poles of the earth.
The subjective pole "Anna" is looking for this objective pole "awakening."
Put it all down, just let it go.

Take a LOOK at the situation, is there any such polarity? If you imagine a separate thing that you call awakening, then "you" can never reach it, it is always pictured in the thoughts as just out of reach. You can feel like you're progressing closer but it keeps slipping away, like a carrot on a string dangling in front of the donkeys head.

Step back and see the situation, it's really quite funny. DO YOU EXIST?