Help needed

[annarodriguez]

Hello, my name is Anna.
I live in the Netherlands.
Although there is intellectual understanding, I can't see through seperation.
There is a me-feeling and a me-suffering.
I have never seriously meditated.
Can anybody guide me to see through the false me?

[Nick]

Hi Anna, I'm Nick, in eastern USA (GMT-5).
I can help guide you!

Have you read the Gateless Gatecrashers book?
I will use that method. I will ask questions and you answer with 100% honesty.
We should both try to post here at least once per day, maintaining consistent effort.
And please take a break from other spiritual activities such as reading books, videos, satsang meetings, etc.

Let's get started!
Do you have expectations for this process? Can you detail what you want to happen?
What do you not want to happen?
When you consider that you do not exist, what feelings are there?

Nick

[annarodriguez]

Hello Nick,

Thanks for replying so quickly. I will do the best that I can to reply as quick.
I'll start bij awnsering your last three questions:

[quoteDo you have expectations for this process? Can you detail what you want to happen?
][/quote]

I hope that by the end of the process, any ideas of being a seperate individual or any feelings that confirm seperateness have fallen away. That suffering concerning an 'I' has gone.

What do you not want to happen?

I would not like the suffering as I experience it now to continue. I would not like to keep searching for the rest of my life.

When you consider that you do not exist, what feelings are there?

There is always (because I like to consider it a lot) a mix of anxiety and a light feeling, a feeling of happiness. Sometimes I imagine that I'm dead. And then the feeling of being alive becomes more intense, because then I feel lucky to be able to see and smell.
There is also frustration sometimes, because after the considering there is reality with a strong 'I'-sense.

Anna

[Nick]

Anna, please put these expectations aside, forget them.
Do not focus on suffering or ending suffering for now.
Let's look at no-self, see it, then find out what happens and what needs to be done next.

There is always (because I like to consider it a lot) a mix of anxiety and a light feeling, a feeling of happiness. Sometimes I imagine that I'm dead. And then the feeling of being alive becomes more intense, because then I feel lucky to be able to see and smell.

Ok so it sounds as if you experience a special state that is like death but with intense feelings, is that right? That's cool and it can be fun to go into these states. But a permanent altered state is not our goal.

There is also frustration sometimes, because after the considering there is reality with a strong 'I'-sense.

Is there anything different in reality, between the considering and after the considering? Think about it. There is one truth, one reality. Self either exists, or it doesn't. Either way it cannot appear and disappear.

Please give me some more details on what I or self means to you. Can you define it?

Nick

[annarodriguez]

Hi Nick, I will try to put my expections aside, although I know I'm sneaky and will expect certain things anyway. Should I try to ignore that?

Let me start with answering your last question.

I or self to me means the ego, it means my ungraspable sense of being a seperate person. It means my programming and conditioning, the 'thing' that reacts to the world and people when believing it's a seperate self.
I hope that's clear enough. If it's not I'll try to define it more.
By the way, I have not read the Gate-crashers book, so it would be good if you let me know if there is any special language I should be aware of. Language you might use and has special meaning?

Is there anything different in reality, between the considering and after the considering? Think about it. There is one truth, one reality. Self either exists, or it doesn't. Either way it cannot appear and disappear.

I understand, intellectualy, that there is no difference during and after the considering. Reality is reality, always, I understand that it could not be different.
I've tried to find the self and I have found no such thing, only thoughts and sensations, so what appears and disappears are those. So reality doesn't change but my sense or feeling in it changes. Should I look into that longer, investigate it more? Because to be honest, I always find excuses to stop looking or I get distracted by other things.

[Nick]

I've tried to find the self and I have found no such thing, only thoughts and sensations, so what appears and disappears are those. So reality doesn't change but my sense or feeling in it changes.

Ok this is a good place to start. You've looked for the self and can't find it. But there are persistent thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc that keep popping up saying you're a separate self. This appears to be a problem but really it's not.

Let's examine the thoughts first.

Can you control thoughts? Can you choose to think something or not to think something?
Can you stop a thought before it happens?
Is there a thinker who "hears" the thoughts?
WHERE do thoughts happen?

Nick

[annarodriguez]

Hi Nick,

Can you control thoughts? Can you choose to think something or not to think something?

It seems that most of the time I can't control them, they appear and disappear of their own accord.
It becomes really clear for example when I'm trying to think about what we're talking about here. My thoughts wander off, without 'my' consent. But at the same time there seems to be an I that can try and re-focus. It seems that I can tell myself to start thinking about what's being said again. Or, for example, I can tell myself to think the word "choose" as well as I can seem to choose to say it out loud, you know what I mean?

Can you stop a thought before it happens?

No, I can't. I've noticed.

Is there a thinker who "hears" the thoughts?

I can't answer yet, I feel I have to examine it more. The problem is, I feel that I know all the 'right' answers, 'cause I've read too many books and have seen too much buddha at the gaspump episodes etc. So I know that the 'right' answer is that, there is no thinker, there is only thinking. But I do not want to say that just yet, I have to contemplate it some more.

WHERE do thoughts happen?

I have really 'seen' that they happen in 'space'. Although they seem to be located in my head, there can't be found any boarders around the 'space' they appear in.

By the way Nick,

I really appreciate the fact that you are helping me, because you are.
The questions help me focus. Thanks.

Anna

[Nick]

It seems that most of the time I can't control them, they appear and disappear of their own accord.
It becomes really clear for example when I'm trying to think about what we're talking about here. My thoughts wander off, without 'my' consent. But at the same time there seems to be an I that can try and re-focus. It seems that I can tell myself to start thinking about what's being said again. Or, for example, I can tell myself to think the word "choose" as well as I can seem to choose to say it out loud, you know what I mean?

I just bolded the word 'seems' in your paragraph above. Read it again with this in mind, and see what you think.

When you tell yourself to think the word "choose"... isn't this also a thought? Where was the decision to think that thought? Can you find the source of this apparent intention as anything other than another thought? Is it possible that there's just a story about making decisions? Just because a thought says "I'm deciding to do this" does that mean that that statement is true?

So just check out the flow of thoughts, see it happening without any need or ability to control it or stop it. It's like a radio in the background, telling stories. Can you find anything that is a REAL self or thinker, other than more thoughts?

:)

Nick

[annarodriguez]

No, I can't find the source that's doing the thinking. I can see that every 'I' that occurs in my thoughts is just another thought and every decision I make, just seems to be a reaction to a previous thought or situation.
And the things that are decided or thought depend on the way one was conditioned, right? But those things don't seem to land. The fact that I see it- and as a matter of fact I have seen it like that before- doesn't change the core-feeling which is there most of the time, the feeling that there is a 'me' doing the thinking. Is that just the conditioning? Is this mind so conditioned to think that there is a 'me' that it needs time to wear off?
And when 'I' am looking into these things is it just thought investigating thought?

Most of the time my thoughts are coherent and they also apply to the situation. They are reactions to what is happening. So they don't seem to be random.
So are thougths then just a brainfunction, an automatism?

[Nick]

No, I can't find the source that's doing the thinking. I can see that every 'I' that occurs in my thoughts is just another thought and every decision I make, just seems to be a reaction to a previous thought or situation.

Good. Keep this in mind. Consider it. Can a thought think?

the things that are decided or thought depend on the way one was conditioned, right? But those things don't seem to land. The fact that I see it- and as a matter of fact I have seen it like that before- doesn't change the core-feeling which is there most of the time, the feeling that there is a 'me' doing the thinking. Is that just the conditioning? Is this mind so conditioned to think that there is a 'me' that it needs time to wear off?

It doesn't need to "wear off". There ALREADY is no you doing the thinking. Who cares if it sometimes feels like there is? It's just a story with no effect on reality.

when 'I' am looking into these things is it just thought investigating thought?

straight up. just thoughts.

Most of the time my thoughts are coherent and they also apply to the situation. They are reactions to what is happening. So they don't seem to be random. So are thougths then just a brainfunction, an automatism?

Ok, here you are operating based on an ASSUMPTION, something that you take for granted that you haven't examined yet.

You are assuming that there is an external world "out there" which is independent of the thoughts which are "in here"...

Yet earlier, you concluded that the thoughts just happen in space without any borders, not inside of a separate brain or person. hmmm....

Check it out. Just look around, go for a walk or something. Notice everything happening on its own without any controller. Notice the thoughts going along on their own. Notice how when you see a tree, is it really a tree "out there"? Or is it just colors and shapes within an image, plus a thought that says "tree"?

Can you see how the thoughts are a part of reality, how they name and describe things?

:)

Nick

[annarodriguez]

I took your advice and didn't go for a walk, :) I sat in my room.

Okay, I don't know how to put it in words again, but this afternoon I realized that I must be very big. Like in limitless. Expansion happened and then contraction again, because of fear.
I saw that there was not a lamp out there unless something called it a lamp, it was just there and thoughts were just there. But if that is the case with the lamp and thoughts, then all other things must be concepts too, things 'outside' us that we put names on. Because I realized I couldn't find the outside.
Then what remains for me to be? I couldn't find anything to be. Because if I tried to be my hand, I had to call it my hand first. And senses and feelings would have to have names too, before there was an I to call them mine. So there was no I that I could define and then the expansion started to happen, no limits, but as soon as 'I' realized that there were no limits, fear jumped in. Because how far would it go. It means I'm everything! I would just be the 'space' things arise in.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

But now doubt is sneaking up on me again. And I'm doubting if I really 'saw' this, although in that moment it was very clear.
And in that moment I saw that of course it has always been there, right under my nose.
But for now the feeling and the insight has gone. I had to describe the above from memory.
And it's not really gone, it's still under my nose of course. I'm just believing my thoughts right now.
'I' guess 'I' know where to look now.

Any advice?

[Nick]

Anna,

My advice is this. You say "it's still under my nose" and "i know where to look," and "i'm believing my thoughts." These are sentences written in English that we use to communicate and describe things, no problem there. But the sentences are stories, they are not literally true. Examine these statements, and examine how they tell a story with a sense of a YOU separated from the REALITY that we are looking at. They describe a separate self for the purpose of telling the story, but they do not constitute a separate self in reality. These thoughts, including the thought of "i'm not seeing it", are all part of IT.

So, you are looking at it right now. Tell me, what is it that's "doing" the looking? Is there anything?

:)

Nick

[annarodriguez]

Sorry Nick,

I know we are supposed to post here as much as we can and i'm trying.
My internetconnection has been completely down since wednesday.
So now i'm in the library. They told me it's going to be in between now and eight workdays before they will contact me and that is just the contact. That doesn't mean my internet will be up and running right away.
I have access to internet at my job, but I do not always have time to do stuff for myself there.
I will try to post as much as I can. Please keep on posting.

I have been thinking about what you wrote the last time.

This is what came to mind.
There is no do-er. Things, thoughts just arise. So what is being thought or what is being felt has no relevance, those are just the story. As also the thought or feeling that I'm seperate.
So since there is no-one doing and thought is just investigating thought it must be a matter of 'grace' for me to really 'see' through the seperateness. Or rather for that feeling to fall away. I can't do anything about it.
Is there really any use in investigating? Or is the investigating meant for neti-neti: I'm not this, and not this.
Or is that something else for me to find out?

[Nick]

Thanks for explaining the internet issue. It's no problem let's just respond to each other whenever we can. I will be moving homes next few weeks so I will probably miss some days of internet, too :)

There is no do-er. Things, thoughts just arise. So what is being thought or what is being felt has no relevance, those are just the story. As also the thought or feeling that I'm seperate.
So since there is no-one doing and thought is just investigating thought it must be a matter of 'grace' for me to really 'see' through the seperateness. Or rather for that feeling to fall away. I can't do anything about it.
Is there really any use in investigating? Or is the investigating meant for neti-neti: I'm not this, and not this.
Or is that something else for me to find out?

Neti-neti is a part of it. Seeing that there is no self in the body, no doer or thinker, and you have been doing this already. Further...

Look at life flowing on its own with no controller or orchestration. There is no you doing anything. There is no you thinking the thoughts that are happening. NOW, keep going. Is there a you seeing or knowing all this? All these experiences, are they happening TO something? Like a center?

LOOK. Is it being seen? What is it that's doing the looking?

:)

[annarodriguez]

I just wrote a whole peace. Guess it's lost?
Am at work now no time to rewrite.