Hoping to find relief

[Noro]

On we go!

What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?

I'd say it's a mixture of sensation and thought.

So an apparent multi-sensory phenomenon. i.e. two sense fields appearing as a kind of self-referencing habit pattern.

Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No

It doesn't. But that doesn't take away the convincing nature of the thing.

What makes it convincing is that it has never been looked into clearly.

In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?

Only as far as I mentioned in the answers above.

Ahhh..... you did not answer the question!
If there was only a Yes or No answer required, what would you have answered?
Yes or No?


This sensation behind the eyes that you experience as confirmation of a separate self or "I" or "me" is very common, especially when there is a lot of mental activity going on. These sensations will not disappear, they are common appearances within the field of body sensations that are noticed more than others. In fact, the more attention is placed there, this seems to activate the familiar pattern.

EXPLORE BODY SENSATIONS

Take a moment to relax and take few deep breaths, let go of all thought as you do this exploration.

Become aware of the whole field of sensation of the body, as much as is appearing in the moment.
Now, feel the sensation of your feet on the floor.
Now feel the sensation of your hands resting on your thighs.
Now feel the sensation of your inhale and exhale as you breathe.
Now feel the sensation in your head behind your eyes as you described above.
Now expand your attention to the whole field of body sensation from head to feet.
Alternate between locations of sensation.

Without the thought "I" or "me", in your direct experience, do any of the areas of sensation point to anything other than
simply sensations? Yes or No?

Now, repeat the same exercise and ask "Where am I"?
In your direct experience, what do you find? (Clue: Look at body sensations)
Can an actual "I" be found anywhere? Yes or No?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

If there was only a Yes or No answer required, what would you have answered?
Yes or No?

No

Without the thought "I" or "me", in your direct experience, do any of the areas of sensation point to anything other than
simply sensations? Yes or No?

No

In your direct experience, what do you find? (Clue: Look at body sensations)
Can an actual "I" be found anywhere? Yes or No?

I find nothing. Only the sensations.

There are two other developments that I think you should know.

One is that my attention has been going more often to the associated neutral body sensations when I feel strong emotions. Putting attention on what the body feels like seems to diffuse the emotion. I don't know if this a good thing or a bad thing.

Also, last night I realised very clearly that the sensation behing my eyes cannot be a sense of self. It is what it is, a sensation like any other sensations. My eyes felt a bit tingly for a while after this, but that may have been because I was cold. Anyway, the sensation behind the eyes does not have the convincing power it used to have even a day ago.

[Noro]

Hello Vistascan,

One is that my attention has been going more often to the associated neutral body sensations when I feel strong emotions. Putting attention on what the body feels like seems to diffuse the emotion. I don't know if this a good thing or a bad thing.

This is the way to go. If a lot of attention is placed on a particular sensation then it can actually seem to tighten whereas if the sensation is treated as one body sensation amongst all other body sensations not yet noticed then it can more easily disperse. This can be useful for any physical sensations.

Also, last night I realised very clearly that the sensation behing my eyes cannot be a sense of self. It is what it is, a sensation like any other sensations. My eyes felt a bit tingly for a while after this, but that may have been because I was cold. Anyway, the sensation behind the eyes does not have the convincing power it used to have even a day ago.

This is a really good realization!


BUTTCHAIR

Sit down on a chair, get yourself comfortable and take a few deep breaths to relax and if you like, close your eyes:

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

You can do this with other body parts as well.

What do you find?


PALM FLIPPING MEDITATION

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk!

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience!

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire: How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control the movement?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- Where is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

No it's one big sensation.

- Does a thought control the movement?

I don't know. But a thought is almost associated with the movement.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

- Where is the decision made to turn the hand over?


Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

Honestly I don't know. There is a sense of deliberate action when I turn the hand. I can't see it as an impersonal thing that's happening.

[Noro]

Hello VIstascan,

- Where is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

Honestly I don't know. There is a sense of deliberate action when I turn the hand. I can't see it as an impersonal thing that's happening.

You only gave one conceptual answer for these four questions which were asking you to look carefully from direct experience.
In your conceptual answer you say:

There is a sense of deliberate action when I turn the hand.

Please answer EACH of the following questions using direct experience not conceptual interpretation:

How is a sense of deliberate action known in direct experience?

What sense fields are involved here in direct experience? Please name each one.

Can any of the sense fields in themselves point to a sense of deliberate action?

If body sensation - Does this indicate deliberate action?

If thought - Can a thought take action?

Seeing - Can seeing be other than simply seeing?

I can't see it as an impersonal thing that's happening.

There was no question asked about impersonal thing happening. That would be a conceptual interpretation, i.e. a thought.


Please will you do the exercise over again. I have changed the wording a little.

PALM FLIPPING MEDITATION THIS IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE IT IS EXPERIENTIAL

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on, many times.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – look from direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME look with curiosity: How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it? Yes, No or Not Sure?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? Yes or No?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when it seemed that thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

- Can a thought make a decision?

- Can a thought itself initiate anything at all?

- Can a decision maker be found?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

How is a sense of deliberate action known in direct experience?

As a sensation-thought mixture.

What sense fields are involved here in direct experience? Please name each one.

Sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, and awareness of thoughts.

Can any of the sense fields in themselves point to a sense of deliberate action?

No

Can any of the sense fields in themselves point to a sense of deliberate action?

No

If body sensation - Does this indicate deliberate action?

No

If thought - Can a thought take action?

No

Seeing - Can seeing be other than simply seeing?

No

- Does a thought control it? Yes, No or Not Sure?

Not sure

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? Yes or No?

No

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't know. It just happens.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don't know.

- Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No

- Can a thought make a decision?

No

- Can a thought itself initiate anything at all?

No

- Can a decision maker be found?

No

[Noro]

Hello Vistascan,

You seem very clear with the last exercise, but there was still a hesitation with this question. But since you were clear further down, I think we can pass over this now so long as you are quite clear about thoughts ability to take any kind of action.

- Does a thought control it? Yes, No or Not Sure?

Not sure

- Can a thought make a decision?

No

- Can a thought itself initiate anything at all?

No

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't know. It just happens.

This is a great answer!



DRINKS MEDITATION - CHOICE/AGENCY
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in direct experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty an "I", doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’.
But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

Hello. I've been experiencing some things I'd like your opinion on. I'll post the results of the exercise soon but I wanted to let you know this beforehand.

I've been having frequent thoughts/emotions about death and the fear of death. Not in like a suicidal way but more about the inevitability of it and how all my hopes, dreams and so on will get wiped out on death.

I've also been having dreams about some old regrets in my life, paths not taken and so on. The sense of pain and loss is sharp when I wake up.

I just wanted to let you know incase they were related to the inquiries.

Thanks

[Noro]

Hello Vistascan,

I've been having frequent thoughts/emotions about death and the fear of death. Not in like a suicidal way but more about the inevitability of it and how all my hopes, dreams and so on will get wiped out on death.

These explorations can be unsettling to conventional thinking. It is possible that doing this exploration could be a catalyst for bringing up thoughts that you would normally not think about, but the exploration would not be the cause of such thoughts. The topic of death, the fear and grief and its inevitability is a very normal topic of contemplation for many people. Birth and death go together don't they?

The beauty of direct experience is that it acts as stabilizing anchor when such thoughts start looping. Direct experience brings you right back to the present moment, to what is actually being experienced, not what is imagined.

Look at this:
In your direct experience what are hopes and dreams?
Can you see that they are simply thoughts happening?

When you are having such thoughts, can you see that you are in a world of imagination that has nothing to do with what is actually present in direct experience. Bring your attention back to NOW. Focus on your breath, Focus on the sensations of your body touching the floor or chair etc.

I've also been having dreams about some old regrets in my life, paths not taken and so on. The sense of pain and loss is sharp when I wake up.

When there are strong body sensations arising they are there to be met and allowed, not diverted away from or avoided.
We all have a lifetime of unfelt emotions stored in the body.

Can you give yourself the time to be with this "sense of pain and loss?"
Look closer into the sensations.....

Without the emotional labeling of "pain and loss", is it possible to fully be with the sensations as they are: simply sensations arising?

Do sensations have anything to say, or do thoughts make up the narrative?

My suggestion is to return to the following exercise as a very simple meditation, it can be very calming and stabilizing.

DIRECT EXPERIENCE AND LABELING DAILY ACTIVITIES

Sitting on a chair; simply: sensation
Feeling feet on the ground; simply: sensation
Seeing a cup on the table; simply= colors and shapes
Smelling coffee; simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup; simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee; simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee; simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee; simply = thought


THINKING EXPLORATION - Look at this again.
Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to not pay attention to what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?

Can a thinker be found?

Please answer/reply to all the questions in blue individually.

Warm regards,

Rowena