realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

Re: reactions to correction:
The first three students who took an online quiz I created all emailed me to tell me that the correct answer for question #1 got marked as incorrect.
(I’ve made it clear that I’m very grateful to be told if anything on the site for my online course doesn’t work right or is unclear.)
Felt a little embarrassed. Fixed the issue. Emailed all three back to apologize, thank them, and tell them it was fixed.
No big deal.
Apparently, it was such a small deal that it only belatedly occurred to me that it’s an example of something you and I have been talking about.

[vinceschubert]

but it still feels a lot of the time like “I” am thinking a thought—i.e., that there’s an “I” who had some control over it

It’s time to leave kindergarten.

The feeling “I am thinking this” may continue to appear. It doesn’t reopen the case. You’ve looked in the fridge often enough. There is no watermelon.

Rest in that knowing—not as a conclusion that must be defended, but as permission to stop searching.

Questions may still appear, but they needn’t become assignments. They can be held lightly, turned over, laughed at and allowed to remain unanswered. Curiosity replaces urgency. Inquiry becomes play rather than a hunt for the missing piece.

If an old identification brings suffering, curiosity may wander over and have a look. Perhaps something loosens; perhaps it returns later. No final explanation is required. The conditions are too numerous, their effects too mysterious, and every experience is already changing the organism in ways that cannot be measured.

Gradually, this may become ordinary: nothing to find, nothing to finish, questions without demanded answers, and enough good humour to let uncertainty breathe.

Then experience is no longer flattened by the constant need to explain, improve or escape it. The familiar becomes strange again. Light on a wall, a passing thought, rabbits on an abandoned runway—each is allowed its impossible existence.

Not an answer.

Wonder-full-ness.

much love ❤️

v

[whoknows]

but it still feels a lot of the time like “I” am thinking a thought—i.e., that there’s an “I” who had some control over it

It’s time to leave kindergarten.

Pfthfth! (That’s me blowing raspberries at you—y’know, in a very mature way.)

The feeling “I am thinking this” may continue to appear. It doesn’t reopen the case. You’ve looked in the fridge often enough. There is no watermelon.

I know! That was not the issue.
I just thought it might be helpful to have more of a felt sense of it.

Rest in that knowing—not as a conclusion that must be defended, but as permission to stop searching.

Questions may still appear, but they needn’t become assignments. They can be held lightly, turned over, laughed at and allowed to remain unanswered. Curiosity replaces urgency. Inquiry becomes play rather than a hunt for the missing piece.

Wonder-full-ness.

Yeah, OK, “permission to stop searching” sounds good.
So does curiosity rather than urgency.
So does “wonder-full-ness.”

I will let go of TRYing to experience thoughts as not being produced by the thinker.

* * * * *

This morning, I surprised myself by doing a bunch of work that could’ve waited until sometime next week but which was nice to get out of the way.

I am inclined to attribute this to spending more of my time hanging out in “boundless consciousness.” I’d like a better phrase for that, but Angelo’s will do for now, and its unfamiliarity and oddity are actually helpful when I want to remind myself to settle into what is a somewhat new flavor of open awareness for me, which involves being less caught up in thoughts and more aware of sense perceptions, with a sense that being aware of sense perceptions is simply the natural state, accompanied by a gentle sense of being aware of being aware. That description made it sound complicated, but it doesn't feel complicated. It feels like just being here.

I’ve noticed before, starting almost forty years ago (and spouse just confirmed that he’s noticed this too), that more meditation time generally seems to make it easier to take care of one’s responsibilities. I could speculate about mechanisms for that, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn’t come up with a fully satisfying explanation. And I don’t need one.

* * * * *

[I wrote this up yesterday but couldn’t bring myself to post anything else before you posted again:]

From an Angelo video, “What to Do When You Experience Unbound Consciousness.”:
“Once you come to this place, there’s nothing more you can do. You can give yourself to this experience of pure conscious experience, pure conscious being, and remain alert, remain in that thoughtless space. But there’s nothing more you can do. The rest is out of your hands.” “It’s just a matter of time.”
And he notes that there might be a fear barrier. He basically says: Disregard the thoughts, stay there, and it’ll subside.

This all sounds right to me.

* * * * *

I’ve been noticing in the last day or two that when my attention unclenches from the thoughts it had grabbed onto, often my face also unclenches, around the eyes, mouth, and jaw.

[whoknows]

P.S. Just noticed I said "boundless consciousness" yesterday, when Angelo's phrase, which makes more sense for what he's pointing to, is actually "unbound consciousness." The point is not that it has no bounds; it's that it's not bound up in anything (i.e., thoughts).

When I think of this phrase, I usually have to pause for a moment to get it right, but oddly, this momentary search for the phrase seems useful right now, for helping me to click into the newfound feel of the effortless, nonfocused awareness that's always here, though it's sometimes seemingly obscured by being caught up in thoughts.

See ya at the meeting. Thanks for getting up so early to be with us, vince.

[whoknows]

Something that came up at the meeting that might be worth some further attention is my fear of the suffering that I imagine will arise from future events. Obviously, this consists of a slew of speculations about the future and memories of the past (thoughts that are happening now), plus some bodily sensations (that are happening now).

The mind is once again offering the observation that it's a wonder how so much suffering can arise from mere thoughts plus bodily sensations that are only mildly uncomfortable. The mind also offers that it might be worth examining the supposed "I" who is afraid.

But somehow none of that is feeling very promising. Maybe that's simply because it's rather theoretical at the moment, given that I'm not examining an actual fear happening right now.

It occurs to me that this came up in the context of my unwillingness to deem myself "awake," which is in part due to wanting and perhaps expecting more of certain sorts of changes that are already happening, e.g., a greater decrease in fear of the productions of my own mind. That desire and that idea about what being “awake” might entail could perhaps be considered a low-level but compelling background conglomeration of thoughts and beliefs I’m hanging onto.

Re: helping other people, I was glad that, if nothing else, someone learned that they are not the only one who has come up with the warped strategy of protecting themselves from fear of death by not liking life. I suppose one thing that’s helpful about knowing you’re not the only one, when it comes to things like that, is that it becomes easier to take a look at it, talk about it, and air it out.

[whoknows]

Because of various things about our schedule, we didn't do our usual afternoon and late-night sits yesterday (just a bit of quiet time before Sunday service), and today we didn't do our afternoon sit. I seem to be experiencing something I think I first learned about in The Three Pillars of Zen forty years ago: that joriki (the power of concentration developed in Zen practice) "leaks" when you don't practice regularly. Of course, it's not exactly concentration I'm going for these days, but it seems like my sense of being able to easily shift into "unbound consciousness"—and even just remembering that I want to—has "leaked" a bit.

Oh, right, I didn't even get my "driving practice" time today. And I've been trying not to flood you with posts while you're on vacation, so I haven't been reinforcing this stuff in that way either.

Several times yesterday and today, I thought about using an Angelo video or an Adyashanti video for guided meditation, but I never managed to do that, perhaps partially due to some sort of laziness but probably at least partially because of a phenomenon I've dealt with for 35 years, which is that I'd realized that the "spiritual" path is fundamentally about willingness, not willfulness (to borrow terms from Gerald May's Will and Spirit), but I had no idea how to practice with that insight, so I mostly didn't do any kind of practice at all.

As I've noted, it's great that sitting is now just part of my regular daily routine, so I never have to decide to sit. It seems that I still don't know how to decide to sit except as a means to an end, which tends to feel like it defeats the whole idea of recognizing that it's all already THIS.

Time for late-night sit . . .

* * * * *

OK, a little better now.

[whoknows]

Hi? I’ve been missing my daily dose of vince.

I might be worried about whether you’re okay, except that in addition to posting your usual daily story (which you might’ve set up to happen automatically?), there was the bonus story about the shoeshine man (which “emerged today,” which maybe was in fact yesterday, not several weeks ago?).

Can’t help wondering if your absence here is a teaching strategy, but I lean toward thinking it isn’t.

Hope all is well, dear vince.

[whoknows]

Is there a methadone-equivalent for LU addiction?

Went poking around your threads from the past year or so. Worked my way through your initial post to Sylwia, about looking at a trigger, seeing what belief got activated, and looking for the “me” that it’s protecting. Examined something that had come up for me the other day: a weirdly strong dread and unhappiness related a probable future issue that seems embarrassingly trivial. Did some investigating and crying.

Have a sense that maybe the mechanism for loosening up this sort of fear and anxiety—ranging from something deep (primal fear of death) to seemingly trivial (holiday planning)—is related to a willingness to go right into it and not be afraid of the fear. Didn’t feel any great sense of resolution or anything, but it feels like it got aired out a little. (Also thought of a possible practical semi-solution to the issue.)

Was also struck by something you asked both Sylwia and bluzulu:

If all thoughts stopped right now—

What remains? 

And who is missing?

What remains: Sense perceptions.

Who is missing: Well, there never was a “who” that was accessible to direct experience, so it can’t go missing. What could go missing would be the sense of a “who.”
And it does seem like, without thoughts, there would be no sense of self.
But when I try to imagine all thoughts stopping, some thoughts that seem especially persistent and “self”-like are related to there being a perspective from which sensing is happening.
It's challenging to imagine perceiving without a sense of that location from which the perceiving is happening, even though it’s clear(ish) cognitively that that’s just a layer of thoughts.

I notice that when I try this thought experiment, I’m inclined to hold my breath—as if that will help to stop the arising of thoughts?

* * * * *

Afternoon sit began with a bit of breath-counting, because mind felt mushy, then some “What’s the next thought?” to open up awareness, and then I played with “If all thoughts stopped right now, what remains?” which settled into a sense that what’s here is just a pile of sensory apparatus and that the aim was to absorb as much sense data as possible, with as little distortion and static as possible. That was a good twist on shikantaza.

[vinceschubert]

story about the shoeshine man

There was a warm glow & a feeling of affection for that one. What happened for you as you read it?

Is there a methadone-equivalent for LU addiction?

Withdrawal from this could be fruitful.

What remains: Sense perceptions.

i think you might be ready for this; How are thoughts and sensations different?

direct experience

Can you describe this for me?

And it does seem like, without thoughts, there would be no sense of self.

If a sense of self is sensations plus stories (that apply meaning to them), would the sensations even exist? That is would the sensations be triggered without the stories? (look for the answer in experience)

there being a perspective from which sensing is happening.

If the sensing is experienced in your brain, then the point of origin (of whatever is perceived) is an illusion. This means that whatever is sensed is in you. To whatever degree of involvement, it is you. That is, you are it.
So it is wrong to call it perception. There is no subject and object. There is only experiencing. It is the mind demanding explanation that invents cause and effect.

I notice that when I try this thought experiment, I’m inclined to hold my breath—as if that will help to stop the arising of thoughts?

i imagine that the holding of breath induces a stillness that invites acuity. (maybe)

Afternoon sit began with a bit of breath-counting, because mind felt mushy, then some “What’s the next thought?” to open up awareness, and then I played with “If all thoughts stopped right now, what remains?” which settled into a sense that what’s here is just a pile of sensory apparatus and that the aim was to absorb as much sense data as possible, with as little distortion and static as possible. That was a good twist on shikantaza.

Well DOne.

I’ve been missing my daily dose of vince.

So you discovered what grief is?

which you might’ve set up to happen automatically?

Yes, i'm currently scheduled about 5 days in advance.

if your absence here is a teaching strategy,

Not intentionaly. Did you learn anything (about yourself) from it?

has "leaked" a bit.

This is interestingng. Is it something to do with keeping intention active?

I've been trying not to flood you with posts

Flood away. i can swim/float.

the "spiritual" path is fundamentally about willingness,

Is there willingness to accept unwillng. (or whatever is there)
Oh, and this is not about 'spiritual'. It is about humanness. Anything spiritual is a sideaffect.

..to be continued.

love you

v

[whoknows]

Thanks for the late-night post. I wasn’t expecting anything until your “tomorrow.”

story about the shoeshine man

There was a warm glow & a feeling of affection for that one. What happened for you as you read it?

I found it a lovely and convincing portrait of what being “enlightened” might mean. And I was with the young man when he said, “That sounds like one of those Zen answers,” and eventually departed wishing he’d been told what he could DO about waking up other than, “Walk carefully. The polish is still fresh.”

Is there a methadone-equivalent for LU addiction?

Withdrawal from this could be fruitful.

Here’s another one of these for you: pfthpthft! Maybe withdrawal could be fruitful at some point, but I’m not ready yet!

What remains: Sense perceptions.

i think you might be ready for this; How are thoughts and sensations different?

My mind goes immediately to the long-familiar idea from Buddhism that there are six senses: the five we traditionally count in the West, plus mind, the object of which is thought. So it isn’t a new or confusing idea to me that, at least in some ways, thoughts aren’t different from sensations—if that’s where you’re headed with this. For instance, my way of understanding shikantaza is that, instead of noticing thoughts and “returning” to physical sensations, as is done in “counting the breath” and “following the breath,” you notice everything that arises: the objects of all six senses.

But that was pulled out of the mental file cabinet. So let’s look at this afresh . . .

How are thoughts and sensations different?

Well, experientially, when awareness is caught up in thoughts, that seems to mostly obscure awareness of sensations, though there can be wispy little thoughts that blow through and don’t interfere too much. But I don’t think awareness of one type of sensation obscures awareness of other types of sensation. E.g., I think there can be awareness of sight and hearing simultaneously. But actually, I’m not sure. Maybe that’s a super-quick shifting back and forth? But even if so, I don’t think a super-quick shifting back and forth between thinking and hearing is possible in the same way. So, at least in that way, thoughts seem different from sensations.

It’s tempting to say that sensations are “reality” and thoughts aren’t. But that obviously isn’t accurate. Thoughts are real phenomena. Maybe sensations reflect “external” reality, and thoughts often don’t? Or sensations reflect “consensus” reality, and thoughts often don’t? Maybe not. I think there’s a useful distinction in here somewhere, but I’m having trouble finding it.

How thoughts and sensations are similar:
They are what awareness is of.
They arise due to causes and conditions that can never all be known.
Together, they constitute all that can be experienced.

Back to how thoughts and sensations are different:
In terms of practices related to awakening, it seems to me that noticing thoughts as thoughts is key. Disidentifying with thoughts seems to be a crucial skill.
Spending more time being aware of sensations rather than being caught up in thoughts seems to be salutary.

direct experience

Can you describe this for me?

Direct experience is what is sensed.
The standard LU instructions say that “direct experience” means the objects of the five senses plus the fact that thoughts occur but not their content.
I guess phrasing it that way might be a useful strategy for helping people to focus on exploring their experience rather than getting lost in abstract discussion, but it doesn’t seem strictly accurate, and I think I got thrown off by it.
At a certain point in the LU process, I realized, though your examples, that examining my experience needed to include examining the content of the thoughts, not just the fact that thoughts arise. The content of thoughts gives rise to emotions, i.e., bodily sensations accompanied by further thoughts. It’s relevant to what’s going on in experience.
If we say that direct experience is what is sensed, I think we have to say that this includes not only the fact that seeing occurs but also what is being seen, and it includes not only the fact that thoughts arise but also their content.
The content of thoughts might not correspond with “external” reality, but it’s a real phenomenon that, in some cases, is important in this sort of investigation.
(I feel like it would take further careful thought to figure out how I might want to talk about this if I were revising the LU instructions.)

And it does seem like, without thoughts, there would be no sense of self.

If a sense of self is sensations plus stories (that apply meaning to them), would the sensations even exist? That is would the sensations be triggered without the stories? (look for the answer in experience)

My immediate thought is yes, but since you raised the question, I’m wondering if this is as obvious as I think it is . . . One important component of my sense of self is ordinary sensations around the eyes and mouth. Those would continue to exist without stories about “me.” Am I missing something here?

there being a perspective from which sensing is happening.

If the sensing is experienced in your brain, then the point of origin (of whatever is perceived) is an illusion. This means that whatever is sensed is in you. To whatever degree of involvement, it is you. That is, you are it.
So it is wrong to call it perception. There is no subject and object. There is only experiencing. It is the mind demanding explanation that invents cause and effect.

I agree with all of this. I was mainly observing that these sorts of thoughts, which seem to be a component of the sense of self, are particularly sticky. Many other sorts of thoughts can more easily be sensed as not pointing to or arising from a “me.”

I notice that when I try this thought experiment, I’m inclined to hold my breath—as if that will help to stop the arising of thoughts?

i imagine that the holding of breath induces a stillness that invites acuity. (maybe)

Yep, something like that.

I’ve been missing my daily dose of vince.

So you discovered what grief is?

Well, in addition to the feeling of missing something, there was confusion, concern, annoyance, and speculation. That doesn’t seem like what I would call grief, though I guess there’s a little bit of overlap.

if your absence here is a teaching strategy,

Not intentionaly. Did you learn anything (about yourself) from it?

As I could have predicted, at this point I suppose I can carry on with this on my own to some degree, but I felt like I was losing some momentum and intensity and focus. It helps a lot to have daily prompting and feedback from someone I trust to have a good sense of where to point me.

has "leaked" a bit.

This is interestingng. Is it something to do with keeping intention active?

Maybe. And just staying in the habit of noticing thoughts and settling back into simple awareness of sense perceptions.

the "spiritual" path is fundamentally about willingness,

Is there willingness to accept unwillng. (or whatever is there)

That’s tricky. It makes perfect sense to me theoretically that willingness can encompass unwillingness or willfulness, but that can be hard to remember or access in the moment when it’s relevant. But maybe that sort of awareness has been appearing more often? Can’t think of any examples, but that seems like the general trend for me.

Oh, and this is not about ‘spiritual’. It is about humanness. Anything spiritual is a sideaffect.

Yeah, I know you don’t like the word “spiritual” for this, and I don’t either, for the same reasons. But there’s often not a great substitute. Thus my scare quotes.