realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean that there is actually no "I" who has my thoughts, feelings, and perceptions; rather, there are just thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. It's not clear to me how the "gatecrashing" you're aiming at here is related to what Zen calls kensho. Maybe it's a tiny proto-kensho?

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like help in seeing the unreality of the self. When I look, I find no self, but I have not directly experienced the unreality of the self, and simply not being able to find a self is not particularly transformative. I am hoping for at least an initial glimpse of no-self and, thus, an entry into a life of greater freedom, spaciousness, peace, and compassion (to be followed, I hope, by deepening that awakening, integrating it more and more fully into how I live my life, and helping others to awaken).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be given exercises to do and questions to answer, based on my own experience, to help guide me toward seeing the illusory nature of the self, in a process that seems to resemble the "self-inquiry" of Advaita Vedanta. I love that these are written conversations, since I do my best thinking and communicating in writing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
About 35 years ago, I did several years of fairly intensive Buddhist practice, Zen and Tibetan, including living at a Zen monastery, where I never did pass my first koan.

For decades after that, my practice was sporadic at best, though Zen has been central to my life, both personally and also academically and professionally. I have written about Zen, and I teach basic Zen practice to beginners, but when I talk about no-self, emptiness, or liberation from suffering, that is all based on hearsay. I am not speaking from direct experience.

In the past couple of years, I have gotten back into more sustained spiritual practice via teachers of Advaita and Zen, through their videos and book and a meditation app, and I feel like I am primed to finally see through the illusion of self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[whoknows]

While waiting to be assigned a guide (thank you, guides, for volunteering to do this!), I’ve read parts of some conversations in the archives of the forum; I’ve watched some of Ilona’s videos; I’ve perused Gateless Gatecrashers and Christiane Michelberger’s books; and now I’m reading Liberation Unleashed and writing out my answers to some of the questions. Although I like thinking in writing, I’ve never been into journaling because I don’t particularly like writing to an audience of only myself or the cosmos. So I decided to write my answers as if they’re directed to my future LU guide.

Below are my answers to the first two “Try This for Yourself” questions in the chapter on expectations. I’m filling in the blank in “What do you expect from . . . ?” and the other questions with “a guided conversation on the LU site.”

I hope it’s okay to post this here before I’ve been assigned a guide. I hope it might even be helpful as an elaboration on my answers to the introductory questions for the forum—helpful perhaps for matching me with a guide and/or for jump-starting my conversation.

What do I expect from . . . a guided conversation on the LU site?

I expect to be pointed toward my own experience in order to see through the illusion of “self.” And I expect, or at least hope, that my guide will ask helpful follow-up questions and have a good sense of where to point me next.

I dearly and rather desperately hope (though I’m not sure I quite expect) to make at least a first crack in the shell of the “me” illusion.

I expect to continue to feel some fear of being disappointed if this doesn’t “work.” Just typing that makes me start to cry. I’ve longed for liberation—from suffering, from “self”—for so long now. To an outside observer, my life probably appears privileged and comfortable, but I mostly feel “quiet desperation,” which isn’t so quiet in my own interior and to my spouse and a friend or two.

Judging from the queue of new people on the forum, I expect that it might be at least a month before I’m assigned a guide. And that’s fine. (I’m really grateful for what you’re doing here and that you’re volunteers.) I hope that simply continuing to work with the questions in Liberation Unleashed and watch Ilona’s videos (and continuing to use guided meditations from Adyashanti, Rupert Spira, and the meditation app The Way) might even do the trick without a guide.

What do you not expect from . . . a guided conversation on the LU site?

I do not expect therapy. But I would welcome any new insight into my psyche and, in particular, into dealing with emotions, perhaps as a side effect of this process? Or maybe it really is an effect of the process?

I do not expect, or seek, mystical insights or divine revelations. I hope to see what actually is (or at least to feel convinced that I’m seeing what actually is) in a way that is transformative of my perspective on life.

I do not expect that my life will magically start to go the way I wish it would (I don’t think that’s what spiritual practice is about), but I do hope that I can begin to experience my same old life, with all of its features that I do and don’t like, in a way that feels more peaceful, easeful, spacious, open, unburdened. So in that one very big way, I do hope my life will start to go the way I wish it would. And I have experienced that this hope itself can be a major source of suffering. I have appreciated that, in her videos, Ilona encourages us to welcome and even honor such hopes (along with all other emotion-laden thoughts). I don’t think I have the knack of how to both honor it and also not have it be precisely the sort of thing that keeps me out of the freedom of the present moment.

I do not expect what Zen calls kensho (though I wouldn’t object!). I do hope for at least a sort of preliminary shift of perspective along those lines. I have recently learned the term “stream entry,” so maybe I hope for something like that.

* * *

I realized, after I answered more of the questions in this chapter, that I might have misunderstood what was meant by “expect,” both in these questions and in the third of the introductory LU questions. I was answering the questions as if what I “expect” means how I think things probably will be. But maybe the questions were intended to be about how I think things should be. If so, my answers would be different and probably shorter.

I am currently working my way through the seven steps at the end of Liberation Unleashed and am on step four.

Thank you, dear guide, for reading all of that!

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

I see that you're ahead of the game with some answers so there's no need to reply to those again. Also, no need to distinguish between expectations & thoughts of how it "should" be.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[whoknows]

Hi, Stacy. Thank you so much for being my guide!

I've read the disclaimer and "Liberation Unleashed is not ..."

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Recently, I've been mainly doing self-inquiry, often using videos from Angelo DiLullo and Adyashanti. I'm guessing it's okay to continue with that? It seems very much in keeping with what we'll be doing here at LU.

Also, I'm part of a weekly Zoom group run by Harri Aalto (whom Ilona interviewed, which is how I learned about him). Although he doesn't like "no-self" language and talks, instead, in terms of "self-realization," I'm personally more inclined to think in terms of no-self (coming from a Zen background), and I don't feel like what he's doing necessarily leads to something different from what LU is aiming at, at least as far as the initial shift in the sense of self and reality. Is it okay to continue with that while working with LU?

You can call me K. I'm in the Eastern time zone in North America.

I will return later today to respond to the other blue questions.

Again, many thanks for the work you do here as volunteer!

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

You won't need those other practices. They do seem in line with LU. so I won't "forbid" them. but do try doing just this for a while.

I'll watch for further replies.

Loving,

[whoknows]

Stacy,

Thank you for your quick reply! I’m going to continue with self-inquiry, but I might drop the Harri Aalto group for the time being.

How will life change?

I’m hoping that this exploration will help me to have at least an initial glimpse of no-self, and I hope that such a shift in my sense of identity might help my same old life with its same old ordinary issues to feel less heavy and burdensome. I hope that there might be more of a sense of peace and ease.

How will you change?

I imagine that I will perceive myself and reality differently—that I will have less of a sense of being a self “in here” who perceives a separate world “out there.” And I hope that I will feel less weighed down by life and less like I’m trapped inside this supposed self.

I hope that I will begin to sense that I've finally found what I’ve been looking for (which apparently comes with a sense of recognition that it has been here all along and is absurdly obvious).

What will be different?

See the two responses above.

What is missing?

A more deep and stable sense of peace, freedom, lightness, and joy, in the midst of the ups and downs of life. A sense that something has fundamentally shifted for the better in how I view myself and the world.

In meditation, and sometimes in ordinary activities, I can keep returning to a simple sense of open awareness—a sense of what I am before/underneath thoughts—and that is relatively peaceful. I have a sense that maybe that’s what I’m looking for (and this is what Rupert Spira suggests in his videos), but it rarely lasts long, and it feels rather tenuous and perhaps superficial, and it still feels like it takes effort to keep coming back to that.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Your expectations are fairly reasonable.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

Loving,

[whoknows]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Below is what I wrote when I was doing step one in Ilona's book, which begins with copying this paragraph and noticing what comes up:

There is no separate self at all in reality—no agent in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life; all there is, is life flowing freely as one movement, one reality, one life, one nature, one intelligence, one god, one flow, whatever word resonates most. The separate self, or “I,” is an illusion; there never was such as entity and never will be.

What I felt writing that out:

- Relief! Please help me let go of this supposed self! Illusory self, begone!

- I also felt a weird sort of gratification. In college, I realized that free will makes no sense, at least in a physical universe governed by physical laws if we are just physical beings. But of course we are conscious beings, and I also realized in college that we have no clue whatsoever, in any scientific way, about what consciousness is. But even adding consciousness to the physical universe, it’s hard to see how free will makes any sense. Like William James, I simply decided to believe in free will and essentially ignore that it makes no sense. It was too strange and confusing not to believe in free will. Having written all of that, I now realize that I’m not sure the issue of free will is precisely the same issue as whether there is an “agent in change” or a “manager,” but anyway, this was something that came up when I was copying the above paragraph.

- But I also felt resistance, maybe. It’s hard to make sense of ordinary experience without believing we have some sort of control over what happens, and I think it’s inevitable that we’ll fall back into believing or acting like we have some control. So I’m inclined at this point to explain it to myself using the Buddhist notion of the “absolute” vs. “relative” views of the universe. Perhaps we could say that from the absolute (or ultimate) perspective, there’s no self and no free will, while from the relative (or conventional) perspective, it’s fine and useful to talk about selves and free will. Maybe that’s just a way of cleverly protecting the notion (now familiar to me for more than half a century) of being in charge of my life. It doesn’t feel like fear exactly (but maybe I’m kidding myself about that?). It feels more like annoyance at a lack of subtlety or nuance in simply saying flatly that we have no control.

************************************

Later today, I'll watch the two videos and comment.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you.

We are going to focus on looking not thinking.

Long answers come from lots of thinking.

Another very short video:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[whoknows]

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Regarding these videos: I am aware that after an initial shift in one’s sense of identity and perhaps a honeymoon period (as Angelo DiLullo puts it), there will be a process of deepening and integrating this new perspective, and it might sometimes be confusing and uncomfortable. I understand that things may come up—old psychological stuff, old beliefs—and it might sometimes feel like you’re going back and forth between the new and old perspectives. (I hope that these videos will be relevant to where I am in not too long!)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Regarding the other video, the "colored socks" illustration, and the notion of "direct experience," I understand that what I'll be doing here is exploration based on "direct experience," which includes information from the five senses that are traditionally counted plus the fact of thoughts arising but not their content.

(I am aware that you have quite a few folks you're guiding here. You must spent a lot of your time doing this! I appreciate your dedication.)

[Anastacia42]

Yes. good.

I'm retired & these don't take a lot of time. You're welcome. Creating world peace one mind at a time.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[whoknows]

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's a first try at that exercise:

Looking at my computer screen, simply = seeing.
Feeling my fingers typing, simply = feeling.
Hearing the sound of the computer keys as I type, simply = hearing.
Feeling my dry lips, simply = feeling.
Hearing the sound of my breathing, simply = hearing.
Feeling my breathing, simply = feeling.
Seeing what the room I'm in looks like, simply = seeing.
Hearing the sound of the fridge humming, simply = hearing.

I can do some more later today or tomorrow.

This exercise obviously encourages me to be aware of the physical sensations of the present moment, but I'm wondering if there's anything else I'm supposed to be getting out of it.

[Anastacia42]

wondering if there's anything else I'm supposed to be getting out of it.

Ignore all of your thinking and analyzing. These pointers are enough.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving

[whoknows]

Ignore all of your thinking and analyzing. These pointers are enough.

Got it.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The “I am” list includes more information than the other list: specifying that it was me who was experiencing all those things, not, e.g., you or my spouse or the person walking their dog outside. But, no, I don’t think either one is “truer.”

2. What is here without labels?

If this question is asking what sensations are here if the sensations aren’t labeled: The sensations are here whether they’re labeled or not. If the question is asking what is here experiencing all of these sensations if the one who is supposedly experiencing them isn’t labeled “I”: There’s awareness here whether it’s labeled “I” or not.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Well, in my direct experience of doing this pair of exercises, I didn’t notice any difference in the experience based on whether I explicitly labeled the sensations as experiences belong to an “I” or not—if that’s what’s being asked here. (But it seems like there could be situations where labeling an “I” could affect an experience.)

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Nope. Both times, I noticed, e.g., the same tightness in my forehead just above my eyes, the same sensations near my right elbow, the same awareness of the feel of my belly, more or less the same sensations in my mid- and lower back. The second time, I noticed sensations in my right shoulder (presumably because I can't remember the last time I spent 20 minutes straight writing by hand)

[Anastacia42]

Okay. I'll give you pointers to help up see things for yourself.

1. Without "I" is truer because there's no such thing as "I." It is only a contraction plus a labelor story.

2. Yes, Sensation. Direct Experience.

3. No. Labels cannot affect experience.. They're only thoughts. I'll share a pointer for this, too.

4. There will be tension, a contraction, with "I," since it's a lie, that will not be there without it. There's a pointer for this. Let me know when you notice the difference.

Okay. this one first:

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,