TB

[Elad]

“How does the voice/feeling sound that says this? Passionate? Desperate? Luke-warm? Detached-matter-of-factly?
Investigate this in direct experience in real time, repeating the sentence.”

I would say there’s like a subtle ‘emotional pay off’ feeling of certainty, like “yes this is just how it is.”. Sort of like a ‘stalling’ where it just seems like this is a brick wall, of uncertainty. That it doesn’t seem clear that I could see the truth of this.

If the main feeling associated with "I dont see it" is a satisfaction of seemingly knowing, it is likely to maintain itself. What should motivate sincere questioning ?

“Watch the following video and let me know what actually happens and is experienced”
There was a sense of desire to comprehend fully what she was saying in regards to insight. Random thoughts coming up.
Also agreement with the expectations. I do feel I understand that this is simply about what is ALREADY the case. And this then means it’s not about getting some new mystical experience etc. it’s not special in that sense. I feel I accept that. Although the subtle anticipation of an “aha” moment is arising throughout watching. Because recognition is not currently present therefore there is a change to come.

This is again trying to use analysis to solve this process ("I do not see it, so a change/an aha must come"), which doesn't work. Could it be that instead of aha, the final vail will fall with a disappointing letting go of the belief that some aha or change must come ?

[Elad]

Do this exercise:


Stream Exercise


Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a
hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.
Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where,
had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes
to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over
a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its
directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the
rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment,
or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing
something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what
to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there
are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention
there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for
preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!)
etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find
someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Tom' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[ThomasBurdic]

“If the main feeling associated with "I dont see it" is a satisfaction of seemingly knowing, it is likely to maintain itself. What should motivate sincere questioning ?”

A curiosity that goes beyond this discomfort and uncertainty.


“This is again trying to use analysis to solve this process ("I do not see it, so a change/an aha must come"), which doesn't work. Could it be that instead of aha, the final vail will fall with a disappointing letting go of the belief that some aha or change must come ?”

Yes I see how, if this sense of me is simply a belief, and it isn’t actually truly happening, then it makes sense that it could be a very simple uneventful dropping away, because what’s happening is already what’s happening.


“1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing
something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow”

I do see how what appears to me as “decisions” or “things I’m doing/choosing to do” are the result of reactions to many different factors arising that are actuslly involuntary like body sensations, other people, thoughts/memories, habitual impulses etc.
how even when doing these sorts of inquiry into the self, this is happening as a reaction -> to a reaction -> to a reaction - like an impulse to do it, a feeling of curiosity arising involuntarily, a memory arising involuntarily etc… and it happens.



“2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what
to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there
are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention
there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for
preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!)
etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find
someone somewhere?“


So this morning as I was about to go to work, I remembered about getting breakfast from the shop to take there. This arises as a thought/memory to do that, which is involuntary. Or even as a thought of “what was it I needed to remember to do?” Leading to that thought.
Also with feeling of desire/anticipation of pleasure (remembering which food I like and motivating the brain/body to remember this and seek it out). This preference for this specific sandwich and crisps is also involuntary. And the movitating energy driving me to do all this effort to do this is like sensations in the body and habitual actions yes.

I see what you’re saying about “is there an autonomous one within this?”
Coz yea you could say that the sense of “me” in this behaviour is sort of “piggybacking” off the flow of life happening with all these different involuntary factors and inputs

And even if there’s a factor of consciously choosing to get the healthier option or not, this can feel like a consciously controlled choice, but that’s also driven by certain emotional patterns and thoughts which are just happening.

3.
So yea when I really look clearly like that it’s difficult to attribute full responsibility to a “me” whos responsible in some real way.
And what’s left then is “me” as that which is experiencing whatever appears. That which is feeling it, conscious of it etc.
Which is that place where it feels vague.

[Elad]

This whole response is quite clear. Good stuff.

Now look at this supposed separate experiencer, experiencing all the stuff that just happens. Can this experiencer be found, or it is just a belief/a thought that happens when the question is asked?

Is there actually anyone "inside" separate from outside? Or any "outside" that is truly separate from inside?

Notice how the mind might try creating arguments for the existence of the separation. Notice how it just happens habitually. Notice how there might be a pull to this and resistance to just SEE what is there. Don't fight any of that, just see it. Then, attend freshly to the question, is there actually anything found that is not JUST EXPERIENCE ?
Is there anything that is truly "the experiencer" or "the object of experience" rather then all being different sensations and thoughts that are JUST EXPERIENCE ?