realizing selflessness

[vinceschubert]

No, I wasn’t asking for a theoretical “absolute” account. Spelling it out occasionally may loosen assumptions, but once it becomes tedious, stop. Replacing the self-story with an elaborate conditions-story is still story.

Purposeful action, intention and deliberation plainly happen. The question is only whether they require a separate controller. At the exact moment attention deliberately shifts, can an agent be found apart from the intention, impulse and shifting itself? Was the intention selected before it appeared?

And yes, “return” works conventionally for attention. Nothing returns to THIS because nothing left. Even the thought “supposedly THIS is it” is THIS. Is anything happening now excluded?
Can anything be excluded?

When this one played today, the idea of K arrived saying it might be apt.. https://soundcloud.com/vince-schubert-1 ... -warmth-is

v

[whoknows]

At the exact moment attention deliberately shifts, can an agent be found apart from the intention, impulse and shifting itself?

No.
That’s what I was articulating with my “absolute/no-self” account.
Oh, wait. But maybe you’re making a distinction between that “self”-less story and how the experience in the moment does not include a “self”?

Was the intention selected before it appeared?

No, not in the moment.
From the conventional perspective, you could say that a general plan was initiated beforehand to try to remember more often to deliberately shift attention back to sense perceptions after emerging from being caught up in thought. So in that sense, a deliberate shift in the moment was a successful enactment of a general intention that had been selected earlier. (Maybe.)

Nothing returns to THIS because nothing left. Even the thought “supposedly THIS is it” is THIS. Is anything happening now excluded?
Can anything be excluded?

No and no.

When this one played today, the idea of K arrived saying it might be apt.. https://soundcloud.com/vince-schubert-1 ... -warmth-is

Its invitation to me:
Play with thinking of THIS as home.

[whoknows]

Made a concerted effort to find an Angelo video that I’ve wanted to rewatch but hadn’t been able to find again. Found it and watched it this morning. (“Awakening Is Never What You Expect.”) A line that especially stuck with me is that it’s “stupidly simple.” I played it again to start my afternoon sit and was trying to settle into the straightfoward stupid simplicity of THIS, with the feel of my idea from this morning of seeing THIS as home.

Other related pointers and reminders came up, including this:

Imagine falling—not thinking your way—into the experiencing of:
“Ahhh . . . okay. THIS is it.”

Plus repeated encouragement from my previous LU guide to relax.

And this:

Hear the line as though THIS itself is speaking to forty years of seeking: “Grab your things, I’ve come to take you home.”
Then look:
Where would K actually be taken?
Is home somewhere else—or is it the softening that happens when escape is no longer required?

Also got some flickers of the “prodigal son” story and being welcomed home with unconditional love and a big celebration after painful wandering.

After the sit, played “Solsbury Hill” and did a lot of crying, which felt like hope for homecoming after being away for much too long — a sense that maybe I really can be at home here in this world. (Typing that last bit made me start sobbing again.)

[vinceschubert]

did a lot of crying, which felt like hope for homecoming after being away for much too long — a sense that maybe I really can be at home here in this world. (Typing that last bit made me start sobbing again.)

Tears here too. Beautiful.

K returned at dusk to the home she had never truly left.
Every path, window and worn step was familiar, already labelled and filed away by thought.
But this time she brought a lover named Appreciation, who paused at the gate as though arriving somewhere extraordinary.
Through his eyes, peeling paint held weather, old floorboards carried music, and the kettle’s hiss became a welcome.
K began to see everything that thinking had flattened into “ordinary.”
Nothing was new, yet everything escaped its old exile in description and came alive.
Home had not changed; she had simply arrived with someone who knew how to look.

Can old be new now?
Viewed through fresh eyes, yes it can.
Appreciation!

v

[whoknows]

Thank you for this, vince.
I'm heading home with Appreciation.
I hope there aren't any flight delays or other holdups.
But I guess Appreciation would appreciate them too.
And perhaps that appreciation would be contagious.

[whoknows]

I want to have something to say, to give me something to write about and to give you something to respond to, but I’ve mostly felt lethargic today and like life is painful and burdensome, even after I took a nap. I was wondering about something related to suffering but don’t have the energy to formulate it and don’t feel like I actually care very much. I understand that this is all included in THIS, but knowing that doesn’t seem at all helpful at the moment.

That's where I am today.

[vinceschubert]

That's where I am today.

Then that’s where you are—and that is enough. You don’t owe me a question, an insight or something interesting to respond to.

“This is all THIS” isn’t supposed to make pain feel better. If it becomes “Knowing this should help,” it has turned into another demand upon an already tired organism.

No spiritual assignment today. Attend gently to whatever the body practically needs. Can lethargy and not-caring be here without K having to extract meaning, progress or awakening material from them?

v

[whoknows]

“This is all THIS” isn’t supposed to make pain feel better. If it becomes “Knowing this should help,” it has turned into another demand upon an already tired organism.

I guess I know that it isn’t supposed to make pain feel better. But I want it to!

Can lethargy and not-caring be here without K having to extract meaning, progress or awakening material from them?

Sure. But I don’t like sitting around feeling lethargic, apathetic, and like life is painful and burdensome, and if I’d come up with something to write about, that would’ve kept me occupied for a bit. Oh well.

[whoknows]

Was relieved to eventually figure out yesterday that I had a physiological thing going on that was affecting my mood. Being aware of this dissipated much of the second-arrow suffering. Today, the first-arrow suffering has also significantly lessened.

**********************

Re: “The Thing You Won’t Notice When It’s Gone”:

As you know, I’m with Daniel. I find it annoying, discouraging, and kind of confusing that suffering doesn’t get replaced with equal-and-opposite happiness but, rather, with nothing, a.k.a. ordinary life.

And there’s this:

“I don’t need a certificate.”
“No?”
“No.”
“A badge?”
“No.”
“A small internal bell?”
Daniel laughed.
“Maybe a bell.”

Yeah, a bell would be fine.

Or, hey, c’mon, you’re the one who mentioned how things might feel a bit psychedelic. That’d work for me.

And the mind harkens back to those experiences in college when the dull yellow-brown of the dormant grass was beautiful and when it was obvious, looking at my class schedule taped to my wall, that time is an invention. And I think of that song by Cream called “Badge,” which is probably considered psychedelic — a song I loved at the time and still do (more great guitar playing). Maybe “Badge” could be played as my awakening badge?

No?

Oh, alright.

(And on the themes of going home, psychedelia, and great guitar, there’s Blind Faith’s “Can’t Find My Way Home,” another song I loved back then.)

**********************

Noticed, while driving this afternoon, that the layers of cumulus clouds were quite captivating and lovely. This is noteworthy for me. In the midst of decades of some combination of depression, existential angst, and autistic exhaustion, I realized that I rarely appreciated beauty. I even had a dream once, maybe ten or fifteen years ago, in which I found something beautiful, and that dream seemed significant.

[vinceschubert]

But I want it to!

Did you embrace the wanting? (not what you wanted, but the experience of desire)

feeling lethargic, apathetic, and like life is painful and burdensome,

The experience is different if you don't resist it.

and if I’d come up with something to write about, that would’ve kept me occupied for a bit.

Pretty classic avoidance - huh?

I realized that I rarely appreciated beauty.

That will change. In fact isn't it already changing?

a bell would be fine.

Isn't appreciation a bell?

Was relieved to eventually figure out yesterday that I had a physiological thing going on that was affecting my mood. Being aware of this dissipated much of the second-arrow suffering.

Do you get that you responded to information?
That information changed the stories that were running. (even outside of awareness)

suffering doesn’t get replaced with equal-and-opposite happiness but, rather, with nothing, a.k.a. ordinary life.

Now i'll have to reread the story (i did it over a month ago) because if Daniel left you with this idea - it's wrong.
Not "nothing". Ordinary only from a classic perspective. Ordinary only describes the conditions. It says nothing about the response to them.
This is Daniel

For years he'd imagined progress as acquiring things.
More clarity.
More openness.
More stability.
More peace.
More equanimity.
More insight.
Even when he'd stopped expecting fireworks, there was still an invisible graph somewhere.
A vertical axis labelled:
AWAKENING

Is this still active for you?

But the absence of the old suffering story did not need to feel like bliss.
Sometimes it might feel like nothing at all.

Is this the line that you responded to?


vince

[whoknows]

But I want it to!

Did you embrace the wanting? (not what you wanted, but the experience of desire)

I think simply acknowledging the wanting in writing, as I did there, was a way of embracing it. It felt good, and slightly amusing, to straightforwardly admit it, rather than in any way pushing it down or ignoring it because it wasn’t “correct.”

feeling lethargic, apathetic, and like life is painful and burdensome,

The experience is different if you don't resist it.

Yep.

Was relieved to eventually figure out yesterday that I had a physiological thing going on that was affecting my mood. Being aware of this dissipated much of the second-arrow suffering.

Do you get that you responded to information?
That information changed the stories that were running. (even outside of awareness)

Yep.

and if I’d come up with something to write about, that would’ve kept me occupied for a bit.

Pretty classic avoidance - huh?

Well, I don’t know. “Avoidance” sounds like it carries a negative value judgment, as if I “should” have just sat there in my unhappy feelings rather than wishing to find some a suitable and perhaps even constructive diversion. I don’t see any problem with wanting a diversion. That actually seems healthy.

I realized that I rarely appreciated beauty.

That will change. In fact isn't it already changing?

Yes, it’s changing, like how I’m appreciating lovely clouds and appreciating good music more.

a bell would be fine.

Isn't appreciation a bell?

OK, yeah, good point.
And yet . . .
I guess I’m still hoping for and probably even expecting some sort of more decisive change in the midst of all the gradual change? Some sort of obvious shift in how I perceive “self” and “reality”? (These sorts of things are all over the LU archives and Angelo DiLullo’s and Adyshanti’s videos, not to mention The Three Pillars of Zen, etc., though I’m also familiar with teaching that totally downplays this sort of thing, like Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind, Joko Beck’s Everyday Zen, Rupert Spira’s videos, etc.)

suffering doesn’t get replaced with equal-and-opposite happiness but, rather, with nothing, a.k.a. ordinary life.

Now i'll have to reread the story (i did it over a month ago) because if Daniel left you with this idea - it's wrong.
Not "nothing". Ordinary only from a classic perspective. Ordinary only describes the conditions. It says nothing about the response to them.

OK, the distinction between the conditions and the response to them is helpful.
Let me look at the story again . . .
Well, there’s the idea that being anxious feels like something, but not being anxious feels like courgette. (Had to look that up. It’s zucchini here.)
And: “Nobody remembers: 11:43 a.m. — tied shoelaces without existential distress.”
(I enjoyed both of those lines, btw.)

Even when he'd stopped expecting fireworks, there was still an invisible graph somewhere.
A vertical axis labelled:
AWAKENING
Is this still active for you?

Yes, definitely (alas).

But the absence of the old suffering story did not need to feel like bliss.
Sometimes it might feel like nothing at all.

Is this the line that you responded to?

Maybe that, along with the sorts of things I mentioned above.
Here are some more examples:

Less:
Something is wrong.
Less:
I need to fix this.
. . . . .
And when those disappeared, there was no replacement banner.
There was just lunch.

“And when that feeling isn’t there, I don’t get a positive sense of rightness.”
Daniel stared at her.
“You just don’t?”
“I just don’t.”

Not-rightness may exist; rightness may not

So I heard all of this as something I’d noticed myself a long time ago:

suffering doesn’t get replaced with equal-and-opposite happiness but, rather, with nothing, a.k.a. ordinary life.

No?

*************************************
I was writing this before your message appeared, and I wan't going to include it here because this post has already gotten so long, but it's related and seems like it might even address what it sounds like I misconstrued from the story

Nobody remembers:
11:43 a.m. — tied shoelaces without existential distress.
. . . . .
“The suffering gets a story.”
“Yes.”
“The absence doesn’t.”
“Yes.”
“So later it feels like suffering was continuous.”

Yes.

I’ve been thinking about this recently. I sometimes think of the past 35 years or so as torture. But I’m aware that it wasn’t continuous torture. E.g., I loved a teaching job I had for ten years.

And yet, I think it’s accurate to say that up until about six or eight months ago, I did spend part of nearly every day feeling like life is torture. There were times when I would regularly calculate what percentage of my lifespan I likely still had to endure, and I would happily cross days off of the calendar. I once even did some searching online to see if I could find out how folks like CIA operatives were trained to withstand torture, thinking I might get some clues for coping with life. (Didn’t find anything.)

Now I feel that a lot less, and I think I sometimes go several days at a time without feeling like that at all.

That's clearly a huge improvement, but still, it's not an equal-and-opposite happiness replacing the suffering. It's just the absence of suffering. And it's ordinary life.

[whoknows]

Another very brief but noteworthy experience of beauty this afternoon.

[vinceschubert]

Another very brief but noteworthy experience of beauty this afternoon.

Excellent!
Have you considered that the day you eventually mark on the calendar as the day you “woke up” may simply be the day it became unmistakably clear that this had always been so—that no separate self had ever been running life?

Old patterns and reactions will still visit. Their appearance means nothing about awakening and is neither failure nor reversal.
They are simply conditioning arising—more of THIS—and perhaps an opportunity to see them differently.
Whether that opportunity is taken or not is also no measure of anything. There is no awakening scorecard.
What would actually need to change for what is already true to be realized?

K, can you imagine that the recognition might have a distinct bodily component—a deep softening accompanied by waves of excitement? (or something)
Would it stretch you too far to imagine something almost psychedelic within it?
The familiar world suddenly appearing vivid, intimate and new—the ordinary no longer flattened by thought into something already known.

Don’t try to manufacture it or turn it into another expectation. Just let the possibility land. What happens in the body—opening, resistance, longing, fear, excitement?

v

[whoknows]

Have you considered that the day you eventually mark on the calendar as the day you “woke up” may simply be the day it became unmistakably clear that this had always been so—that no separate self had ever been running life?

Sure. That pretty much seems like the definition of realizing no-self, which is what I came to LU for: grokking that there never has been a “self.”

What would actually need to change for what is already true to be realized?

I have no idea!

As best I can tell, realization is just a tiny but significant shift of perspective or perception — a shift away from viewing everything through the illusion of “self” — but what needs to change for that to happen? I don’t know!

I assume it’s not a better intellectual understanding of the idea of no-self. And y’all at LU don’t seem to think that a mind that has become clearer and calmer via meditation is particularly relevant.

Maybe it’s some sort of letting go or surrender. But then, of course, this mind wants to know how to make that happen, and that orientation seems to defeat the whole idea.

Maybe I really was a good candidate for the type of koan practice that makes effort finally implode in its own ridiculousness or something like that.

K, can you imagine that the recognition might have a distinct bodily component—a deep softening accompanied by waves of excitement? (or something)
Would it stretch you too far to imagine something almost psychedelic within it?
The familiar world suddenly appearing vivid, intimate and new—the ordinary no longer flattened by thought into something already known.

That all sounds more or less how I might be inclined to imagine it.

Don’t try to manufacture it or turn it into another expectation. Just let the possibility land. What happens in the body—opening, resistance, longing, fear, excitement?

Mild exasperation (which says, “Yes, that’s it. That’s what I’ve been wanting this whole time”). Some longing. Some weariness. Some hopefulness. Some frustration. Some confusion (“Why dangle that in front of me? Won’t that just stoke seeking, and isn’t that counterproductive?”)

But I’m not sure where any of that is in the body. I’m not bursting into tears, which is interesting, though there's a bit of tightening in the throat.

[whoknows]

Responded to your most recent message late last night. Returned to it this morning.

Is this a weird place in this process for you too? Is it almost as frustrating for you as for me that I haven’t grokked it yet?

See ya later in my today and very early in your tomorrow.