I know it but don’t yet see it.

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Take this questions with you for the weekend:

Do 'you' or something know where the attention will go next, before it goes there?
Does thought make focus move or does thought describe after the movement?

Have a nice Weekend, friend.

Of course I spent some time over the weekend “trying” to “recreate” that momentary sense of dropped effort… which is the antithesis of dropped effort. Hahaha.

I don’t know where the attention will go before it goes there… the shift is not directed, but observed.

Yes the mind can bring thoughts into attention (without any controller/manager) and those thoughts can then direct the focus to the next object of attention (another thought or absence perception).

Or a sense perception can grab the attention, in which case yes, that shift of focus precedes the subsequent thoughts.

Both appear to be possible (unbidden thoughts shifting the focus of attention, or sense perceptions shifting the focus of attention). Either way it doesn’t involve the control of a manager.

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

Of course I spent some time over the weekend “trying” to “recreate” that momentary sense of dropped effort… which is the antithesis of dropped effort. Hahaha.

Yes :). It's nice that you can laugh about it.

I don't know where the attention goes before it goes there… the shift is not directed, but observed.

Exactly—all of this happens fully automatically, spontaneously, and without anyone sitting at the wheel.

But again...are there actually at the very Moment two things there—an entity as an observer and an observed? Perceiving the shift IS simply the shift itself. Can you Take a Look at that?

The mind can summon thoughts into consciousness (without any control)

...is a statement about a mechanism—essentially a model—not a direct observation. What is actually there, right now, without the explanation?

and these thoughts can then direct the focus to the next object of attention (another thought or the perception of an absence).

Have you actually seen the directing itself — a thought actively moving the focus — or do you just see: a thought is there, and then the focus is elsewhere? Is the directing observed, or is it a connection you're drawing between two events?

And generally... how are you doing right now? How have you been feeling over the last few weeks? Is anything missing? Doubts? Uncertainty?

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Josh,

Hi Daniel,

Perceiving the shift IS simply the shift itself. Can you Take a Look at that?

Yes, I will look at that.

Have you actually seen the directing itself — a thought actively moving the focus — or do you just see: a thought is there, and then the focus is elsewhere? Is the directing observed, or is it a connection you're drawing between two events?

Yes good description! This is true, a thought doesn’t “move” the focus. The thought shining a light on the new object of focus *is* the movement of focus. The thought brings the new object into awareness. The thought IS the shift. (In the case of thought as the “sense perception” in question).

So back to your comment above, that means the perception of the shift IS the shift in the case of a thought .

Similarly if an object is in view and then a different object is in view, the perception of the shift is also the shift. (Though sight is obviously the “sense perception” in question in this case).

Interesting. I’ll look at this.

And generally... how are you doing right now? How have you been feeling over the last few weeks? Is anything missing? Doubts? Uncertainty?

I’m doing well, thanks! I hope you are as well.

I do feel a bit lighter as I’m feel less like I’m *seeking* something and more like I’m simply “observing closely what is there.” Sometimes it still feels effortful… but it’s not the same intense goal-oriented effort as meditation can feel like… trying to “make something happen.” The difference with meditation though is that it defines a period of practice very well. For this kind of looking I had to set an hourly beep on my watch to remind me to “look” for a couple of minutes. 😊

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

Well described, and I am glad that you are finding relief.

Amidst all the observing of what is present, do not forget the one fundamental question that is really at the heart of the matter: Do *you* exist?

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Josh,

fundamental question that is really at the heart of the matter: Do *you* exist?

I can’t find any evidence of it… but the feeling is still there. I’m looking at the nature of that feeling to see what it is (as opposed to self-existence)… but it’s still an ongoing looking.

I’m open to any other looking exercises to help clarify this.

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

all right...;)

To examine the feeling of separation and that persistent impression of "my body / my self" directly, I have a powerful mirror exercise for you.

Take your phone with you to take notes in front of the mirror. Go through the steps one by one – take your time and look very closely at each one before moving on.

Step 1: Feel the sensation
Close your eyes. Simply feel the pure sensations in this moment (tension, warmth, pressure).

Step 2: Look at the reflection
Open your eyes and look in the mirror while continuing to feel the sensations.

In your direct experience, is there a real connection between the felt sensations and the visual image in the mirror? Or do thoughts only link the feeling with the image?

Step 3: Hand movement in the mirror
Move one hand while looking in the mirror.

Is there a direct experience that the felt movement and the visual image in the mirror are the same – or does your mind create a "This is me"?

Step 4: Look directly at your hand
Move your hand again, but this time look directly at your hand (not in the mirror).

Is there a real connection between the felt sensation and the visual representation, or is this also just a mental link?

Step 5: What does the image actually show?

Focus solely on the image in the mirror.

Does the image itself contain the information that this is "your body"? Or are there simply shapes and colors in pure vision?

Step 6: Invisible parts
If you don't see legs or feet in the mirror:

In pure vision, are you absolutely certain that there are legs there? Or is it the mental assumption that there must be legs?

Step 7: Look around the room
Step away from the mirror and look around the room. Ignore all mental images.

In pure vision, do you find an object called "body" anywhere—or are there simply perceptions of the space plus neutral sensations?

Step 8: Check movement
Walk a few steps around the room.

In direct experience, is there an "I that walks" or an object called a "body that moves"? Or are there simply sensations and the mental text about "walking"?

Step 9: Location of Sensations

Are the sensations truly located "in space," or do they simply arise in consciousness while the mind overlays the mental map of "space" onto them?

(Note: If mild discomfort or confusion arises—this is completely normal and harmless. Simply acknowledge it and continue observing.)

I look forward to hearing from you and am curious to see what you find.

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks! I’ve been working on this….

Step 1: Feel the sensation
Close your eyes. Simply feel the pure sensations in this moment (tension, warmth, pressure).

Done. I feel the aliveness of the body. A generalized cloud of sensation. One interesting thing… when I try to think “where do the sensations in my chest/torso actually exist”… of course my logical brain says “they live in your brain” but when I try to feel around for “where” exactly in the brain, all I can feel for a location of the sensations in my chest is just “those sensations that are in attention in this moment”.

Step 2: Look at the reflection
Open your eyes and look in the mirror while continuing to feel the sensations.

In your direct experience, is there a real connection between the felt sensations and the visual image in the mirror? Or do thoughts only link the feeling with the image?

Yes this is an excellent exercise to separate the body that this awareness is aware of in sensation, vs the images that are producing a visual representation of a body “over there.”

Step 3: Hand movement in the mirror
Move one hand while looking in the mirror.

Is there a direct experience that the felt movement and the visual image in the mirror are the same – or does your mind create a "This is me"?

I definitely can only feel the cloud of sensations related to the hand over here, not the one over there. The mental connection is really strong though… I’ve even heard of people with phantom pains after an amputation being eventually cured by a mirror exercise where they wiggle their remaining limb and associate the movement in the mirror with that of their missing limb, and the phantom pain is dissipated. The mind is incredibly powerful. But I see and feel the point of this.

Step 4: Look directly at your hand
Move your hand again, but this time look directly at your hand (not in the mirror).

Is there a real connection between the felt sensation and the visual representation, or is this also just a mental link?

This connection feels even stronger than through the mirror, but still just a mental concept. I will note this interesting observation… the hand cannot be made to feel “separate” from this body when my eyes are closed. When my eyes are open, I can have a wide-open character to my attention in which the hand doesn’t “feel” (visually, but still more like a feeling/sense) like mine.

Step 5: What does the image actually show?

Just shape and color and shadow.

Focus solely on the image in the mirror.

Does the image itself contain the information that this is "your body"? Or are there simply shapes and colors in pure vision?

Just shapes and colors and shadows.

Step 6: Invisible parts
If you don't see legs or feet in the mirror:

In pure vision, are you absolutely certain that there are legs there? Or is it the mental assumption that there must be legs?

This is sort of a “headless way” type of exercise, and it’s a good one. Yes it is a pure assumption that that image in the mirror “has” legs I just can’t see… just as certainly as I can only assume conceptually that I have a head (when there’s no mirror to show me one).

Step 7: Look around the room
Step away from the mirror and look around the room. Ignore all mental images.

In pure vision, do you find an object called "body" anywhere—or are there simply perceptions of the space plus neutral sensations?

Yes, there is no body or head out there, and only sensations I conceptually associate with a body and head “over here”.

Step 8: Check movement
Walk a few steps around the room.

In direct experience, is there an "I that walks" or an object called a "body that moves"? Or are there simply sensations and the mental text about "walking"?

As a matter of perception, if I look straight outward so that I can’t even see the legs and arms and torso over here, it doesn’t even look like the place where my awareness “is” is moving but rather that the room and its objects are moving around. This is another good exercise. It brings about that “headless” feeling very well. I’ve also had this sensation when driving… attention once cast widely will see the scene coming towards the still driver rather than the driver moving in the scene.

Step 9: Location of Sensations

Are the sensations truly located "in space," or do they simply arise in consciousness while the mind overlays the mental map of "space" onto them?

(Note: If mild discomfort or confusion arises—this is completely normal and harmless. Simply acknowledge it and continue observing.)

Please see my response in #1. Especially (for me) with eyes closed is it more pronounced the strange feeling that arises when I try to locate in sensation (not in concept) *where* in space the feeling of my feet or my chest or my hands “exists”.

I look forward to hearing from you and am curious to see what you find.

Very interesting and illuminating exercises. No explosions, but definitely give the subtle feeling that the mental concepts of the spatial relationship between this body and the room, and the “existence in the brain” of bodily sensations are just mental concepts, as a matter of first-person experience.

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

It’s nice to hear from you. Since I realize you need more time—and we don’t want to put any pressure on you here—we’ll waive the two-day rule for now, if that works for you.

You have clearly revealed how your mind constantly links physical sensations with visual images and overlays them with stories about boundaries, places, and movement.
But let’s look precisely at the place where the mind may have quietly built itself a new hiding place within your answers.

You very often speak of "my attention," or write—when driving or walking—that "the scene comes towards the stationary driver."

Look at this—exclusively for the time being, without any theory:
What exactly makes attention *your* attention? How does one possess perception?
The point of all this is not to create a special feeling of "headless-ness." It is about the sober fact:

Right now, can you find anyone—somewhere apart from arising thoughts—to whom the perceiving belongs? Or is there simply the perceiving itself—without an owner?

Warm regards,
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Oh gosh, I didn’t realize there was a two day rule in place! I’m sure it must be stated someplace but I missed it.

I can respond within two days to check in, even at moments when I haven’t had the time to write a complete response to your questions/prompts/comments!

You very often speak of "my attention," or write—when driving or walking—that "the scene comes towards the stationary driver."

Haha, yes I had a feeling you would mention this. I was getting tired of writing “this attention” or “the awareness over here” as opposed to what I can only imagine is the “awareness over there.”

But yes, you are right of course, there is a reason that it feels natural to say “my awareness” or describe the visual images being perceived “by the stationary driver.”

Our languages are build around the illusion.

Look at this—exclusively for the time being, without any theory:
What exactly makes attention *your* attention? How does one possess perception…

Right now, can you find anyone—somewhere apart from arising thoughts—to whom the perceiving belongs? Or is there simply the perceiving itself—without an owner?

I will look at this…

Thanks!

Warm regards,
Josh

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

What exactly makes attention *your* attention? How does one possess perception…

Right now, can you find anyone—somewhere apart from arising thoughts—to whom the perceiving belongs? Or is there simply the perceiving itself—without an owner?

I cannot find an owner of the thoughts and perceptions existing anywhere in the field of perception. No shift comes with this lack of finding though.

Thanks!

Warm regards,
Josh
[/quote]

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

You have realized for yourself that you cannot find an originator or owner of the perception anywhere.
And yet, someone is waiting for something to change or for something to be "done."

What exactly do you think the "I" can do right now?
Please list for me, specifically, what action, effort, or decision this "I" can carry out.

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

You have realized for yourself that you cannot find an originator or owner of the perception anywhere.
And yet, someone is waiting for something to change or for something to be "done."

What exactly do you think the "I" can do right now?
Please list for me, specifically, what action, effort, or decision this "I" can carry out.

I don’t find an “I” that is the “master” making things happen. I don’t believe we have any free will in how to respond to a stimulus… it’s all been pre-programmed by our previous experiences. I can “experience” this lack of free will by watching the thoughts and seeing where they come from and whether anybody made them arise. They come out of nowhere (as a matter of firsthand experience).

Even “spiritual seeking” is a automatic and inevitable response to a (complex) set of previous causes, not an effort carried out by a “self” that is the “master” of the actions of this organism.

Though there is no effort by any “I”, there remains (also because of previous causes) an expectation that exists that some shift in “something” will take place upon realizing this firsthand. Whether this is an “aha” or a “relaxation of stress or some other kind of “shift” in the perception of events, “something” is still expected and seems not to have arrived.

This expectation seems to be inevitable in the current configuration of the reality of this moment, including the configuration of this organism. :-)

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

Take your latest text and apply a simple grid to it:
Bold the parts that you are actually perceiving with your senses in this moment.
Cross out everything else—any explanation regarding causes, conditioning, or the organism.
What remains in black and white on the page?

Best regards,
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Take your latest text and apply a simple grid to it:
Bold the parts that you are actually perceiving with your senses in this moment.
Cross out everything else—any explanation regarding causes, conditioning, or the organism.
What remains in black and white on the page?

Ok! Please see below.

I don’t find an “I” that is the “master” making things happen. I don’t believe we have any free will in how to respond to a stimulus… it’s all been pre-programmed by our previous experiences. I can “experience” this lack of free will by watching the thoughts and seeing where they come from and whether anybody made them arise. They come out of nowhere (as a matter of firsthand experience).

Even “spiritual seeking” is a automatic and inevitable response to a (complex) set of previous causes, not an effort carried out by a “self” that is the “master” of the actions of this organism.

Though there is no effort by any “I”, there remains (also because of previous causes) an expectation that exists that some shift in “something” will take place upon realizing this firsthand. Whether this is an “aha” or a “relaxation of stress or some other kind of “shift” in the perception of events, “something” is still expected and seems not to have arrived.

This expectation seems to be inevitable in the current configuration of the reality of this moment, including the configuration of this organism. :-)

In the non-bolded text, the only thing that is “perceived in firsthand experience” is a sort of tension representing the expectation of a result.

Warm regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

Spot on. Thanks for your honesty!
Do you see what just happened here? A huge mountain of theory, determinism, neuroscience, and philosophizing has collapsed.
All that remains is a single thing: a physical tension.

Take a look at what ist happening here. The thought process acts as if there were an assembly line of events: first a sensation, then a thought, then another thought, then a sense perception, and so on. Thought Process reconstructs everything retrospectively as a timeline.

And supposedly, someone sits right in the middle of this assembly line, experiencing it all in sequence.

It is this that gives rise to the very feeling of a "tension waiting for something" or an "expectation that remains unfulfilled."
These are all concepts of time.

Let us reduce this alleged chain of time to the raw data of the present moment and examine it.

There are several questions here. Give yourself time for each one.
Examine with your sensory data just as you would search for a misplaced house key in your apartment—not by mentally speculating about where it might be, but by actually looking in a specific place with your eyes:

When exactly does the past end—and when exactly does the future begin?

Try drawing this dividing line based on pure experience:

Where exactly is the precise point where the "just now" ends?

And where is the point where the "in a moment" begins?

Can you find a boundary anywhere in your raw sensory data—or is there, without exception, only this single, boundless Now?

Regarding the "I":

Is the "I" that currently feels the tension (or anything else) exactly the same "I" that thinks a thought a second later—or is that merely a mental assertion made after the fact?

Can you find any fixed, continuous "I" in the pure sensory data that travels from one moment to the next?

Or does the feeling of an "I" simply appear as an isolated moment—passes away—and in the next moment something entirely new emerges?

Where is the wanderer in time—except as an idea in the mind?

Answer me based only on what is perceptible in the current fraction of a second.

Have fun with the examination. I look forward to hearing from you.

Warm regards,
Daniel