I know it but don’t yet see it.

[Shoji]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no distinct entity that manages the retrieval of thoughts or the driving of actions. I’m fully convinced intellectually that we humans have no free will and are just along for the ride. The thing that still eludes this brain is seeing past the feeling that there is a “passenger” along for that ride.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to see past the feeling that there is a passenger who is along for the ride. In terms of the intellectual idea that there is no distinct self and that we as humans don’t have free will but act according to the programming stemming from a lifetime of experience that were also beyond our control. This is what I see as karma… programming from earlier in this life (nurture) and in DNA (nature), not a religious belief in an accounting from a past life of “mine”.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect pointers that serve the purpose of helping this brain stumble and sputter as it tries to maintain the illusion of a passenger riding along behind the eyes and directing experience… and thereby creates the conditions/internal questions that lead to the experience of no-self (not just the intellectual concept, which I don’t need convincing of).

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation started with transcendental meditation.

After starting with TM, books started with western pop spiritualism, then moved Hindu Sankya and Yoga Sutras related texts.

Something like this (some others interspersed):
Power of Now - Eckhart Tolle
Be Here Now - Ram Dass
Yoga Sutras of Patanjili
Untethered Soul - Michael Singer
Three Pillars of Zen - Philip Kapleau
(Started me on Zen Meditation)
Right Concentration - Leigh Brasington
Dhammapada
Waking Up - Sam Harris
(Got me watching pointing out videos from Tibetan Dzogchen teachers)
Liberation Unleashed

I’ve been disciplined and maintained a formal meditation practice of one sort or another for long stretches of time. Individual sessions have been between 5 minutes and an hour. After learning more about Dzogchen, I’ve become more interested in trying to immediately apprehend non-duality rather than sitting and expecting something to happen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Daniel777]

Hi Shoji,

I’d like to guide you, and I look forward to the time we’ll spend together.

With your deep background in Zen, Dzogchen, and meditation, you’ve spent years studying the landscape. You have fantastic concepts in mind. Yet, precisely those concepts can stand in our way here, because the mind will try to solve ‘awakening’ as just another intellectual puzzle.

Please take a moment to answer these two questions completely without censorship:

What are your concrete expectations regarding awakening or enlightenment? How exactly do you envision your life, your feelings, and your daily routine once the illusion of the self has been seen through? What do you expect to change—and what do you expect to stop?

Is there any hidden fear or resistance? If you imagine that there really is no independent self—absolutely no one in control or pulling the strings—what fears arise? What is the worst-case scenario if that feeling of being a ‘passenger’ disappears completely?

Just write down whatever emotions, thoughts, and expectations come up. There is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ here, and no ‘spiritually correct’ answer. Let’s simply see what you’re carrying with you.

Best Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Nice to meet you virtually, and thank you!!

I’m overseas at the moment so please pardon any delay in my replies for the next 10 or so days.

You said:

“Yet, precisely those concepts can stand in our way here, because the mind will try to solve ‘awakening’ as just another intellectual puzzle.”

Yes, I think that’s at least one sticking point for me.

Re: expectations…

At one time I expected perpetual sunshine and rainbows from enlightenment, but I’ve read enough firsthand accounts to realize it’s nothing like that.

I don’t expect my external life to change very much at all. I’ll still be doing my particular version of “chopping wood and carrying water.”

Internally, I expect to be able to experience the simple wonder of present moment without the veil/obstruction of the self… intermittently at first, and perhaps more consistently with time. I don’t expect thoughts, sadness, excitement, hardship, success, or physical suffering to go away. I don’t expect mental suffering, including reactivity like defensiveness, to completely abate either, but perhaps to be softened a bit with time.

Re: fear and resistance…

I’ve already come to terms with the fact that I have no free will and that life is living itself.
One might say this one is something I’ve “experienced” rather than just “been convinced of”. Sam Harris has a talk online during which he suggests that the audience simply “choose any movie”… and then watch the process of how one makes this “choice”… only to find that movies start popping up out of nowhere and then you “choose” between the two or three that pop up… but that choice is based on nothing conscious (you can justify it retroactively as being because of something that happened to you earlier in the day that made you lean one way or another but it’s all just bs… the mind is just running a computer program built by a lifetime’s worth of experiences). It logically follows that the “self” is just a constantly evolving process, not a fixed entity… but understanding that logically is not going to help with awakening.

I need some pointers to help drop the veil and to see the natural awakened state that’s beyond logic and concepts.

I can cultivate the “headless” state of Douglass Harding… wide open attention and with the general feeling that I cannot experience my own head and it’s just the world on my shoulders… but I still have the feeling (thought?) that I’m a passenger (which would be some kind of fixed self) riding along behind the eyes... even without “him” having free will, he’s still “there” for me.

That’s what I’ve got for now. :-)

[Daniel777]

Hi Shoji,

thanks for the detailed answer. Let’s start in a relaxed way...

I used to expect eternal sunshine and rainbows from enlightenment, but I’ve read enough experience reports to know that it is quite different.

I don’t expect my outer life to change drastically. I will continue to do my own kind of "chopping wood and carrying water."

A good starting point. :)

I don’t expect thoughts, sadness, excitement, difficulties, success, or physical suffering to disappear. I don’t expect mental suffering, including reactions like defensiveness, to completely vanish, but perhaps to ease a bit over time.

It is helpful to see how grounded you are in your approach.

Inwardly, I expect to be able to experience the simple wonder of the present moment without the veil/blockade of the self… initially just occasionally, perhaps more regularly over time.

It may be that the search for the "wonder" prevents you from seeing the obvious. You speak of a "veil" or a "blockade" of the self that prevents the experience. Perhaps this analogy will help: trying to clear away the veil and the blockade is like trying to sweep your own shadow away with a broom to clean the sidewalk.

I have already resigned myself to the fact that I have no free will and that life lives itself. One could say that I was rather "experienced" into this than just "convinced." Sam Harris gives an online lecture in which he suggests that the audience simply "chooses any movie"... and then observes the process of this "choice"... only to find that movies suddenly appear out of nowhere and you then "choose" between two or three... but this choice is based on nothing conscious (one can justify it retroactively by saying that something happened during the day that influenced you in one direction or another, but that's all just nonsense... the mind is merely running a computer program based on life experiences). It follows logically that the "self" is a constantly evolving process, not a fixed entity... but this logical understanding alone will not help me awaken.

A beautiful exercise on the topic of decisions and choice. It’s true: the purely logical conclusion is just the next clever story of your mind and won't get you any further.

Let’s walk this shared path like an open-minded child discovering a meadow of flowers for the very first time. Radical curiosity, playful ease. No clearing away, no goal to reach, no test to pass.

Over the next few days while you are abroad, take a coffee cup, a glass, or an orange and place it on the table in front of you. Look at the object for a few minutes and investigate the difference between the direct experience and the thoughts about it.

To do this, answer the following questions while looking at the object:

What is the direct sensory perception? If you only use your senses (sight, touch), what is actually there? (e.g., colors, shapes, reflections of light, the physical hardness or coldness when touching it).

What does the mind add? How do you know that the thing is called a 'cup' or an 'orange', who it belongs to, or what it is for? Is this information found within the object itself?

Does the word 'cup' exist independently of your thoughts? If you completely turn off all thoughts and labels – what is left of the object in pure experience?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Daniel

[Daniel777]

Just a quick note: I am using a German-to-English translation tool, so the sentence structure might often look a bit different.

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hello Daniel,

Ok, I will follow these instructions for investigating where sense perception ends and thoughts/concepts begin!!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Shoji

[Daniel777]

Hi Shoji,

Are you still interested in continuing?

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Yes absolutely. Apologies, I’m overseas and have been rushing around all day every day. I’m headed home today and will be able to post daily. :-)

I have been doing the exercise you suggested.

What I noticed is that it’s very challenging for the mind not to label the item and its features when I examine the object. That is to say, seeing it as pure color, lines, and shadows without the invasion of descriptions and judgements (ie thoughts and concepts about the object) is easier said than done.

That said, I have had some interesting experiences… I was sitting next to my wife as we were reading a brochure together (about a site we were visiting), and since she was taking a turn reading I was just observing the booklet in front of me as a raw object. I noticed that since we were very close together and my perspective was similar to what it would be if I were holding the brochure and reading it, it became for a while/moment not quite obvious whose hand I was looking at holding the brochure. It seemed like it could’ve been mine or hers, my mind wasn’t automatically labeling it as anybody’s at that moment.

I had another similar experience when we were sitting in a long car ride… I was staring at my own hand, trying to just see it in a raw way, and for a moment (also because I wasn’t moving it and so physical sensations in the hand were minimal), it became absolutely unclear that it was my hand. It could’ve been someone else’s sitting there in my lap. Once I moved it and felt physical sensations within it in addition to looking at it, it (almost) immediately collapsed into “my” hand again.

I’ve stared at numerous objects since you gave me the instruction, but those were the ones that stood out the most.

Please let me know if I should refine how I’m doing this exercise, or anything else you’d like to say of course.

Many thanks again!!
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

welcome back! It’s great that you are back to posting daily. I hope you got home safely and had a nice time.

What you experienced in those moments is absolutely profound, and it is precisely what this investigation is about.

I have noticed that it is very difficult not to attach concepts and characteristics to an object when I look at it. Perceiving it simply as color, lines, and shadows—without descriptions or judgments (that is, thoughts and ideas about the object)—is easier said than done.

You don’t have to push away, try to change, or suppress the terms, labels, and judgments. The mind is simply doing what it is there to do: scanning, naming, and categorizing. And it is allowed to do so. It is about recognizing that the name is not the thing itself.

And while we’re at it: try this quite deliberately for the next 30 seconds—look at an object in front of you and absolutely forbid your mind to name or label it.
Can the labeling be stopped at will?
Is there any control over the emergence of the terms?

For a moment (partly because I wasn’t moving it, and the sensations in the hand were therefore minimal), it was completely unclear whether it was my hand. It could just as well have belonged to someone else—lying there on my lap. As soon as I moved it and—alongside looking at it—felt the sensations within it, it (almost) instantly became “my” hand again.

Nice.
What makes a sensation or a movement “yours”?
Don’t look for an explanation; instead, simply see whether an “I” or “mine” is engraved anywhere within the raw sensation itself—or whether sensation is simply taking place and being labeled.

Best regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks! Yes, I have returned home now.

You don’t have to push away, try to change, or suppress the terms, labels, and judgments. The mind is simply doing what it is there to do: scanning, naming, and categorizing. And it is allowed to do so. It is about recognizing that the name is not the thing itself.

Noted. Yes, I tried the 30 seconds of trying not to “allow” the mind to label an object. Total failure of course. :-)
Minds respond to sensations in whatever way they have been conditioned to respond.

What makes a sensation or a movement “yours”?
Don’t look for an explanation; instead, simply see whether an “I” or “mine” is engraved anywhere within the raw sensation itself—or whether sensation is simply taking place and being labeled.

There is a feeling/thought of agency when I move my hand.

It’s a feeling/thought that it was a choice by “this” awareness to move the hand, and it is “this” awareness which feels the hand… and there is no awareness “here” of sensations in any other hands attached to any other bodies, nor any ability to “make” hands attached to any other bodies move… so it feels “personal”.

Thanks!
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,
It’s good to see that you are being conscientious about taking a close look.

Yes, I tried for 30 seconds not to let the mind name an object. A total failure, of course. :-)
The mind reacts to sensory stimuli in the way it has learned to.

That is absolutely correct from a logical standpoint. However, for your investigation, it is valuable to set aside logical conclusions completely.
I don't want to know why the mind does that, but rather what you experience in the moment it happens. OK?

Is there such a thing as a "mind"—or is there simply the sudden, automatic emergence of thoughts?

When I move my hand, a sense of self-determination arises. It is the feeling that it was this consciousness’s decision to move the hand, and that this consciousness senses the hand. There is no awareness here of sensations in the hands of other bodies, nor the ability to move the hands of other bodies. Therefore, it feels personal.

It is undeniable that only this body can sense and move this hand. That is the biological limit of the body.
There is a sense of "self-determination." Quite right. But is this feeling proof of a self, or is it simply another feeling that arises?

Give it a try: Hold your hand with the palm facing up. Then turn it over. And back again—repeatedly, at varying speeds.
Watch like a hawk when the hand turns: Is there an awareness that actively makes the decision to turn, or does the decision and the movement simply arise by itself in awareness?

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

for your investigation, it is valuable to set aside logical conclusions completely.
I don't want to know why the mind does that, but rather what you experience in the moment it happens. OK?

Yes, OK. I will just relate my raw experience.

Is there such a thing as a "mind"—or is there simply the sudden, automatic emergence of thoughts?

It is undeniable that only this body can sense and move this hand. That is the biological limit of the body.
There is a sense of "self-determination." Quite right. But is this feeling proof of a self, or is it simply another feeling that arises?

Yes, the feeling that the hand suddenly becomes “mine” again is experienced as a rushing in of thoughts.

Give it a try: Hold your hand with the palm facing up. Then turn it over. And back again—repeatedly, at varying speeds.
Watch like a hawk when the hand turns: Is there an awareness that actively makes the decision to turn, or does the decision and the movement simply arise by itself in awareness?

The movement is happening on its own. There are even other thoughts experienced at the same time, and they don’t interfere with the turning of the hand or the experience of its movement.

The way in which the hand is made to move is mysterious, as a matter of experience. There isn’t an awareness other than the one experiencing the movement (no “other/separate” awareness “doing” the moving).

I hope my description makes sense.

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

That is completely understandable and beautifully described. I can relate to that.

The movement happens on its own. There are even other thoughts occurring simultaneously that do not interfere with either the movement of the hand or the experience of the movement.

Good point. What about the "I" thought? Is it a special kind of thought that can think other thoughts? Or does it come from the same place as all the other thoughts?

An "I" thought may be pointing to individual experience. But look closely: Is there an actual "me" to be found in the experience? Or are there only thoughts about a "me" arising within awareness?

Experience shows that the way the hand is moved is mysterious. There is no consciousness other than the one that experiences the movement (no “other/separate” consciousness that “executes” the movement).

Exactly, I understand you. If you look at this space now—where the hand movement arose all on its own—is there actually any boundary anywhere within it that separates a "self" from a "non-self"? Or is there simply that single, boundless experience happening right now?

Kind Regard
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Good point. What about the "I" thought? Is it a special kind of thought that can think other thoughts? Or does it come from the same place as all the other thoughts?

An "I" thought may be pointing to individual experience. But look closely: Is there an actual "me" to be found in the experience? Or are there only thoughts about a "me" arising within awareness?

The thoughts “I am doing this” or “this is my hand” seem to exist in the same place as the other thoughts that are arising while I turn my hand over again and again.

look at this space now—where the hand movement arose all on its own—is there actually any boundary anywhere within it that separates a "self" from a "non-self"? Or is there simply that single, boundless experience happening right now?

I can’t really identify a “self” or “absence of self”, but it does appear that the overall experience of moving the hand is a singular experience... just the movement and the thoughts about the movement combined into one total “situation”.

Honestly, the mind is still producing thoughts in which there is an expectation that something should “happen”, though, as I perform the exercise and search for the boundary between the “I” and the mere thoughts about the “I”. Upon not finding it, there is an expectation of “something” happening… not an explosion but some kind of clear recognition. Of course that’s all just a thought stream as well, a thought about a “goal”… but it’s there.

Warm Regards
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

What a beautiful way you describe it: movement and thoughts merging into a single “situation.” Nice.

Honestly, the mind is still producing thoughts in which there is an expectation that something should “happen”, though, as I perform the exercise and search for the boundary between the “I” and the mere thoughts about the “I”. Upon not finding it, there is an expectation of “something” happening… not an explosion but some kind of clear recognition. Of course that’s all just a thought stream as well, a thought about a “goal”… but it’s there.

Thanks for being open about the goal. So, there is a stream of thought regarding a goal and an expectation.

Is there any difference—in terms of substance, energy, or the way they appear—between the thought of a banana and the thought of the goal?

Or to put it another way: Can a mere thought (“Something ought to happen there”) ever achieve the goal it describes?

Kind Regards
Daniel