Seeking guidance to look

[Andras92]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self feels like an internally generated projection — consistent across time, solid, mine. But when I actually examine it, I can't find anything there. I understand this conceptually, and I've circled it for years, but I haven't genuinely come into contact with it. That gap is why I'm applying.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance and support — someone to help me see my blind spots and give me clarity on how to actually approach this, because on my own I keep spinning.

Ultimately I want to reduce my suffering -- the sense of always managing myself, of not being enough.

I suffer, and everything I understand about this pointing suggests it could undo a lot of it at the root. I feel genuinely called to this, but I'm overwhelmed by the sprawl of content out there — YouTube teachers, books, apps.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct pointing. Someone asking me to look at immediate experience and report honestly what I find, then redirecting me when I drift into thinking about it instead of looking — which I expect I'll do. Honestly, I don't totally know how this works or what to expect, but I'm open to whatever it might be.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've meditated for about 15 years — jhana-oriented practice, vipassana, embodiment work, various apps and formats along the way. I've found consistency at times but never depth; practice has stayed wide rather than penetrating.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ashton]

Hi Andras. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a fun time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk what you want me to call you.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought. See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

What you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

But when I actually examine it, I can't find anything there.

When you are doing this examining...
Can you see that there is just examining?
Maybe or maybe not accompanied by not seeing whatever it is that you are *trying* to look for?
And maybe or maybe not feelings of feeling bad may arise by not seeing something that you think should be there, but presently isn't there?

Can you see all of those as a chain of events? That there was no control over them? That they all just arose on their own? Without ever asking for your consent or permission to arise?

Did you say "Hey, experience! First have the thought that 'I should examine my experience'! Then after that, start examining it! Then after that, Look *really really hard* for xyz thing! Then after that, have it so it can't actually be noticed because it isn't actually there! Then after that, make it so feeling bad happens! Then after that... then after that... then after that"

Or did all of that just happen on its own without you asking for each and every one of those chain of events to take place?


Look back.
Reflect.
Report your findings.

Ash.

[Andras92]

Hi Ash, I appreciate your help w this and I'm looking forward to this exploration! I go by Andras.

Can you see that there is just examining?

There's a sense by which I feel this, and there's the thought the it still feels orchestrated around a central point of consciousness in my head; that there's a point around which all of experience is arising. And then I turn into the central point, but it feels uncontactable but there.

Can you see all of those as a chain of events? That there was no control over them? That they all just arose on their own? Without ever asking for your consent or permission to arise?

I have the thought that this resonants, in retrospect looking back at the sequence. Though in the moment it felt like I was the agent/doer.

[ashton]

Hi Andras,

Just incase you don't know, you can read my responses and take time to observe and see if what I'm pointing at arises in your experience or similar throughout the day. That and/or reflect back via memory to see if what I'm pointing at can sort of be found.

But when I actually examine it, I can't find anything there.

When you are doing this examining...
Can you see that there is just examining?

There's a sense by which I feel this, and there's the thought that it still feels orchestrated around a central point of consciousness in my head; that there's a point around which all of experience is arising. And then I turn into the central point, but it feels uncontactable but there

Time to unpack. We are going to put everything you say into chains...chains of experience that arose. So let's do that now:

1. Examining occurred in your experience but didn't get seen as 'just examining' (Completely fine!)
2. Accompanied by awareness looking to see if there was 'just examining'
3. Some sort of sense (not sure if physical, emotional, or a thought) occurred that created a sense of at least seeing partially that examining is there. Maybe a little bit of clarity is what arose, but not full clarity? (Completely fine)
4. Probably sensations in and around the head it sounds like
5. Thought arose of "hmm idk it just feels orchestrated though around a central point of consciousness in my head"
6. Focal point/awareness shifted towards central point
7. 'Partial sensations' so to speak (which would still be full sensations) or rather, unclear sensations arose on account of that

Okay.
So something like that roughly happened.
And so it was.
It happened like that.
Nothing is wrong about a single chain of that experience.
That chain happened exactly as it happened!
It was just a chain.

More chains will come.
All with their each different flavor.

Maybe unclarity will arise. Maybe clarity will. Maybe ubcomfortableness will arise. Or love. Or peace. Or hate. Or anger.

Okay.
All chains.

Maybe you'll feel compelled to reply back and say
"But this and this happened"
Or
"Omg my experience is going bad"
Or
"Ashton help me"
Or

Or
Or
Or
Or

Lol. All chains.
Look.
Is there control over any single chain?
At any part of the day?
Over any sensation?

Or does it all just arise?
Even the ones that feel like you are in control.
Can you see that the feeling... the feeling that could be described as having a more personal flavor, a flavor that could be described as being "more you"... even that feeling, just arose on its own?

Look.
Explore.
Look back via memory.
Look at your current experience.

Heck. Maybe you are looking or pondering right now. If so, did it just happen on its own?

What about reading my message?
Just happened on its own right?

What about the shifting of perspective on account of reading that?
Did that too just happen on its own?

Ash.

[Andras92]

So a procedural question first: I've spent a few days with this last response, coming back to it several times to investigate. That's the approach you'd advise me to take? (Vs. reading/practicing/immediately responding.)

1. Examining occurred in your experience but didn't get seen as 'just examining' (Completely fine!)
2. Accompanied by awareness looking to see if there was 'just examining'
3. Some sort of sense (not sure if physical, emotional, or a thought) occurred that created a sense of at least seeing partially that examining is there. Maybe a little bit of clarity is what arose, but not full clarity? (Completely fine)
4. Probably sensations in and around the head it sounds like
5. Thought arose of "hmm idk it just feels orchestrated though around a central point of consciousness in my head"
6. Focal point/awareness shifted towards central point
7. 'Partial sensations' so to speak (which would still be full sensations) or rather, unclear sensations arose on account of that

I have the thought this all tracks what my experience was.

Is there control over any single chain?

I have the thought of agreeing -- in a sense, it's the only way that it could have played out, what happened is the only thing that could have happened. AND that I have the sense that I could have done otherwise. And then the thought, well then that otherwise way could have been the only way that it could have gone.

What about reading my message?
Just happened on its own right?

I can see, looking at my screen happens, and then the reading/understanding happens. (It doesn't actually feel like something I'm doing. (I just look at the recognition is automatic, though it still feels there is something central/internal to it.)

So there's the thought: I have the agency in turning to the page or even in determining what I write but that the reading/understanding is clearly outside of my conscious control. I can't look and not understand.

What about the shifting of perspective on account of reading that?
Did that too just happen on its own?

I have the sensation of a bit of softening as I read/interact with that.

[ashton]

Hi andras,

So a procedural question first: I've spent a few days with this last response, coming back to it several times to investigate. That's the approach you'd advise me to take? (Vs. reading/practicing/immediately responding.)

Yeah, you can take however long I guess. If maybe after several days or something you incur some sort of "hangup" while trying to investigate, send a reply and let me know. Let me know maybe what you were trying to investigate and how it happened, what all got seen, what was clear in your noticing, unclear, etc. and where you might think there is a hangup if that arises.

1. Examining occurred in your experience but didn't get seen as 'just examining' (Completely fine!)
2. Accompanied by awareness looking to see if there was 'just examining'
3. Some sort of sense (not sure if physical, emotional, or a thought) occurred that created a sense of at least seeing partially that examining is there. Maybe a little bit of clarity is what arose, but not full clarity? (Completely fine)
4. Probably sensations in and around the head it sounds like
5. Thought arose of "hmm idk it just feels orchestrated though around a central point of consciousness in my head"
6. Focal point/awareness shifted towards central point
7. 'Partial sensations' so to speak (which would still be full sensations) or rather, unclear sensations arose on account of that

Is there control over any single chain?

I have the thought of agreeing -- in a sense, it's the only way that it could have played out, what happened is the only thing that could have happened. AND that I have the sense that I could have done otherwise. And then the thought, well then that otherwise way could have been the only way that it could have gone.

Interesting. So here was a new chain you just described:
1. Reading "is there control over any single chain" happened
2. Reflection arose
3. Either a thought and/or a felt sense of agreeability arose
4. Maybe writing began
5. Maybe a thought accompanied by writing arose of "in a sense, it's the only way that it could have played out, what happened is the only thing that could have happened. AND that I have the sense that I could have done otherwise. And then the thought, well then that otherwise way could have been the only way that it could have gone."
6. Buying into number 5 arose on its own as well

In any single point in that chain, did you say:
"Hey, experience! Read xyz thing ash said! Then after that, make it so reflection arises! Then after that, make sure that agreeability arises! Then after that, make it so writing happens! Then after that, keep writing but also generate more thoughts while writing is taking place, and be sure to write those thoughts down! Then during and after that, buy into those thoughts that are arising!"

Did that happen at any part of the chain lol?
Or did it just happen? All on its own?
Without asking for any permission?
Just kinda flowed from one thing to the next, all on its own, right?

Reflect back.

What about if you just started reflecting back?
Did that just happen on its own, too? Lol.

Take a look.

What about any sensations that may have arose of like "hah, he got me"
Did that arise on its own, too?
(If some other variant arised instead of "hah got me", what about that...[you know what I mean lol])

I can see, looking at my screen happens, and then the reading/understanding happens. (It doesn't actually feel like something I'm doing.

Let's dive deeper into this one.

1. Looking at screen arose
2. Reading/understanding came to be
3. Noticing all of that arose
4. A sensation arose behind all of this that it doesn't feel like something you are doing

That all happened.
You saw 1-3 clearly. Even number 4.

But what if I told you that with chain number 4, no matter if it felt like "something you were doing" (ie: felt personal), or if it felt like "something you weren't doing" (ie: impersonal), or even if neither of those feelings arose, it would all just be chain 4, yeah?

Whichever one of those were to arise, would have just arisen on its own, yeah?

It wouldn't have asked your permission to invoke a felt sense of being felt as personal to you.
Nor would it have asked your permission to invoke a felt sense of being felt as impersonal to you.

See how you are describing your experience as it actually happened? That is perfect. That is exactly what I always want from you. You might find that sometimes in your descriptions you might say "this felt personal" for one thing. And for another you might say "it didn't feel personal at all"

Okay.

If reality presents itself a certain way, that is exactly how it presents itself.

I just look at the recognition is automatic, though it still feels there is something central/internal to it.

Same here.
Just a feeling.

Sometimes things feel that way.
Sometimes they don't.
Can you see that it is just a feeling?
Another chain?
And that particular chain was "something feels central/internal to it"

Okay! And so it was!
It felt central. It felt internal.
And so it arose that way!

So there's the thought: I have the agency in turning to the page or even in determining what I write

Let's look at this closely.

You said:

So there's the thought: I have the agency in turning to the page or even in determining what I write

I agree, that was a thought. Hah!

But diving deeper, you said:

I have the agency ... in determining what I write

What about determining?
Did determining arise on its own?
Did you tell determining to happen in your experience?
...
Or did first: choice arose on its own?
(Did choices present themselves on what could be written, all on its own?)

Did the choice to select one of those choices, also arise on its own?

And then did the writing after that, also arise on its own?

I want you to really reflect and really look back on how it happened.
I'm sure you might also realize that when decision was made, it was probably accompanied by a sensation that it felt like "I'm making this decision".

Okay. So what? (Rhetorical- don't answer)
Just another thing that arose... all on its own, yeah?

What about the shifting of perspective on account of reading that?
Did that too just happen on its own?

I have the sensation of a bit of softening as I read/interact with that.

And so it was!
Arose all on its own, yeah?

This will probably take some time to reflect all of this.
But look back.
Reflect back.
Report your findings.

Ash.

[Andras92]

I have the thought to tell you that I've been away on a trip, apologies for the absence!

hangup

I have the thought of clarifying "hangup", the meaning in this context is unclear to me. I have the thought that I have confusion around this, if it's a shift. Or if this, right now, is a hangup?

Interesting. So here was a new chain you just described:
1. Reading "is there control over any single chain" happened
2. Reflection arose
3. Either a thought and/or a felt sense of agreeability arose
4. Maybe writing began
5. Maybe a thought accompanied by writing arose of "in a sense, it's the only way that it could have played out, what happened is the only thing that could have happened. AND that I have the sense that I could have done otherwise. And then the thought, well then that otherwise way could have been the only way that it could have gone."
6. Buying into number 5 arose on its own as well

A thought arises that you're going more meta in deconstructing my experience. Pointing at my follow thru/belief of my thoughts.

Did that happen at any part of the chain lol?
Or did it just happen? All on its own?
Without asking for any permission?
Just kinda flowed from one thing to the next, all on its own, right?

The thought of "no" arises (after reading of the above passage), and then the action of writing this down follows suite. It seems to arise organically, as does my writing about this, as do the letters on my screen.

But what if I told you that with chain number 4, no matter if it felt like "something you were doing" (ie: felt personal), or if it felt like "something you weren't doing" (ie: impersonal), or even if neither of those feelings arose, it would all just be chain 4, yeah?

Feeling of "ah ha" with this!

Same here.
Just a feeling.

Sometimes things feel that way.
Sometimes they don't.
Can you see that it is just a feeling?

This "feels" like it strikes me pretty deep.

What about determining?
Did determining arise on its own?
Did you tell determining to happen in your experience?
...
Or did first: choice arose on its own?
(Did choices present themselves on what could be written, all on its own?)

Did the choice to select one of those choices, also arise on its own?

And then did the writing after that, also arise on its own?

I want you to really reflect and really look back on how it happened.
I'm sure you might also realize that when decision was made, it was probably accompanied by a sensation that it felt like "I'm making this decision".

Okay. So what? (Rhetorical- don't answer)
Just another thing that arose... all on its own, yeah?

I have the thought of replying, "I guess it's just the arising of phenomena all the way down..." I have the thought that I'm realizing what you mean -- that it's there's somethings in my previous messages I'm identifying as phenomena, but that I'm still captured by the self-identified phenomena, but that that too is just a "feeling"/arising phenomena.

[Andras92]

I have the thought to tell you that I've been away on a trip, apologies for the absence!

hangup

I have the thought of clarifying "hangup", the meaning in this context is unclear to me. I have the thought that I have confusion around this, if it's a shift. Or if this, right now, is a hangup?

Interesting. So here was a new chain you just described:
1. Reading "is there control over any single chain" happened
2. Reflection arose
3. Either a thought and/or a felt sense of agreeability arose
4. Maybe writing began
5. Maybe a thought accompanied by writing arose of "in a sense, it's the only way that it could have played out, what happened is the only thing that could have happened. AND that I have the sense that I could have done otherwise. And then the thought, well then that otherwise way could have been the only way that it could have gone."
6. Buying into number 5 arose on its own as well

A thought arises that you're going more meta in deconstructing my experience. Pointing at my follow thru/belief of my thoughts.

Did that happen at any part of the chain lol?
Or did it just happen? All on its own?
Without asking for any permission?
Just kinda flowed from one thing to the next, all on its own, right?

The thought of "no" arises (after reading of the above passage), and then the action of writing this down follows suite. It seems to arise organically, as does my writing about this, as do the letters on my screen.

But what if I told you that with chain number 4, no matter if it felt like "something you were doing" (ie: felt personal), or if it felt like "something you weren't doing" (ie: impersonal), or even if neither of those feelings arose, it would all just be chain 4, yeah?

Feeling of "ah ha" with this!

Same here.
Just a feeling.

Sometimes things feel that way.
Sometimes they don't.
Can you see that it is just a feeling?

This "feels" like it strikes me pretty deep.

What about determining?
Did determining arise on its own?
Did you tell determining to happen in your experience?
...
Or did first: choice arose on its own?
(Did choices present themselves on what could be written, all on its own?)

Did the choice to select one of those choices, also arise on its own?

And then did the writing after that, also arise on its own?

I want you to really reflect and really look back on how it happened.
I'm sure you might also realize that when decision was made, it was probably accompanied by a sensation that it felt like "I'm making this decision".

Okay. So what? (Rhetorical- don't answer)
Just another thing that arose... all on its own, yeah?

I have the thought of replying, "I guess it's just the arising of phenomena all the way down..." I have the thought that I'm realizing what you mean -- that it's there's somethings in my previous messages I'm identifying as phenomena, but that I'm still captured by the self-identified phenomena, but that that too is just a "feeling"/arising phenomena.

[ashton]

Hi andras,

I have the thought that I have confusion around this

This confusion that arose...
Did you say "Hey, experience! Make it so after reading what Ashton wrote, confusion will arise!"

Or did confusion just enter into your experience, without you having to tell it to arise? Without ever asking your permission?

A thought arises that you're going more meta in deconstructing my experience. Pointing at my follow thru/belief of my thoughts.

I want you to look:
When buying into a thought arises... any thought
Or even the dismissing/rejecting/not buying into a thought arises... any thought...

In either of those cases...
Does the buying/not buying into said thought also arise on its own? (Read below quote before responding)

A thought arises that you're going more meta in deconstructing my experience. Pointing at my follow thru/belief of my thoughts.

When you said this here...
A thought arose that I'm pointing at your belief of thoughts.
That happened.

All on its own, yeah?

And then buying into that idea... that thought... that notion...

That too..
Just arose..
All on its own too,
Yeah?

Look back on it.
Reflect.

Did you have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so a thought arises that Ash is pointing at my follow thru beliefs of thought! Then after that, buy into that idea!"

Or did both of those things happen, did both of those things just arrive in your experience all on their own... without you having to prompt both/either of those things to enter into your experience?

Look back on this.
Reflect.
Report back your findings.

It seems to arise organically, as does my writing about this, as do the letters on my screen

What about the times where things don't seem to arise organically?
That surely happens too, yeah?
Both "organically" and "forcefully" are just feelings...
Flavors.... of how the arising of sensations feels...

What I'm asking is...
Do you have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so when things get noticed, a feeling as though the sensations that are arising organically arises!"

Or does it just arise that way?! (When it does feel organic)
Look back on this!

Both for the times when the feeling arises that things are happening either organically or forcefully! Look and see both instances and whether or not you had/have any say in the matter... or if it just presents itself however it presents itself!

I have the thought of replying

Is there always a thought of replying before replying happens?

Look and reflect back on this too.
Or does it sometimes happen where replying just happens... without a thought of replying coming beforehand...

And in either case..
The case where a thought does preceed it
And the case where it doesn't preceed it...

Did you have to prompt experience and say "Hey, experience! Make it so this time before the action happens, make it so it happens without a preemptive thought this time!"

Or does reality just arise however it arises?
Surely you don't have to prompt that for each and every single time in your entire life...
Inspect it.

See what is the case.
Look back at old times and see.
Look at new ones as they arise and see.

I'm identifying as phenomena, but that I'm still captured by the self-identified phenomena, but that that too is just a "feeling"/arising phenomena.

😊

Ash