What is real?

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear?

It is not known.

Is there anything that causes anything to appear?

Thought says yes, but in DE there isn't. things just appear.

Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

They don't.

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

No.

Or is it just a commentary over what is already happening?

Yes. Sensation appeared, then thought commented on the sensation.

Did “having enough” belong to someone?

No. Thought added 'I' to it.

did discomfort build, thoughts appear, sensations appear, impulse appear, words appear?

exactly.

What is “brave” in direct experience? Sensation? Tightness? Warmth?

A body-map sensation. A warm feeling in the chest.

Is there a brave one?

No, there isn't.
A sensation appears, then thought says I'm brave or I need to be brave.

Or is there sensation, thought, action — and then thought labels it “brave”?

Exactly.

Thought saying “this is risky”? Thought saying “I am brave”?

Yes. Thought labeled the sensations.

Was there an “I” acting upon impulse?

No. Action just appeared.

Or did impulse appear, fear appear, thoughts appear, words appear, asking happened?

Yes.

Can the exact point be found where Lilla controlled the action?

No. Yet thoughts constant reference to 'I' made it seem so.

Which part was controlled by a separate Lilla?

No part at all.

Could the request have happened before the discomfort outweighed the fear?

No-

Could it have happened if the job situation were different?

Possibly not.

Could it have happened if the thought “this has to change” had not appeared?

No.

Could it have happened if the conditions had not aligned?

No.

So what made the action happen? Was it a self?

All the components aligning made the action happen.

Or was it conditions, sensation, thought, impulse, fear, care for your son, exhaustion, work circumstances, and opportunity all moving together?

Yes, exactly.

But is there a separate controller behind them?

There isn't

But in direct experience, is there a separate self responsible for making life happen?

No. Everything just appears.

Or is responsibility also appearing as thought, care, sensation, impulse, action, consequence?

Yes .

Did Lilla choose the discomfort with evening shifts?

Certainly not.

Did Lilla choose the impulse to ask for change?

No.:)

Did Lilla control the boss’s answer?

No :)

Did Lilla control the company’s staffing situation?

No

Did Lilla control the words that came?

No, but thoughts claimed so.

Was there a separate doer at any point?

There wasn't

What actually made the request happen?

Sensations, thoughts, impulse, action.

Thank you so much! The way you guided me in through this real life story helped a lot.

Love,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla,
Beautiful. This is very clear. You’ve now looked through body, thought, thinker, intention, action, choice, control, and a real-life decision. Again and again, the same pattern is seen... Something appears. Thought labels it. Thought claims it, but no owner, thinker, chooser, controller, or doer is found.
Now let’s see where the illusion still feels sticky. What would you like to look at next?
Here are the usual places where “me” hides:
Time — past, future, waiting, becoming, “my life,” “my progress.”
Memory — “my childhood,” “my story,” “what happened to me.”
Others — family, boss, son, approval, conflict, being seen.
Space — here/there, inside/outside, body/world, distance.
Emotions — fear, guilt, shame, pride, hurt, irritation.
Responsibility — caring for your son, work, decisions, consequences.
Awakening itself — “am I getting it?”, “will it last?”, “I need to go deeper.”
Pick the one that feels most charged, most personal, or most unclear - not the one that is most interesting intellectually, but the one that still feels like me.
Where is Lilla still hiding?
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

Thank you, I'm excited to unfold my belief in others. That feels the stickiest and most personal. I have one person in my life with whom my relationship is rocky. This relationship brings about pain and hopelessness from time to time and I don't seem to be able to make peace with the experiences.

🙏
Love,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla
Good. Let’s begin with others, but not with the difficult person yet.
The painful relationship brings in memory, history, expectation, hope, disappointment, and hurt. We’ll look at that after the basic illusion of “other” is clearer.
For now, choose an easy “other” in present experience - a dog, a stranger, someone walking past, a cashier, a bird, someone sitting nearby… Look at them directly. Before thought says “dog,” “person,” “stranger,” “other,” what is actually here? Colour? Sound? Sensation? Thought?
Others in comparison to what?
Can you find a self in other human bodies? How do you KNOW it͛s there?
Then there is the identification with the mind. Others could refer to other minds. If it is seen that I don't own a mind then how can others own their minds?

In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. Seeing is like a picture in which everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.


Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is “dynamic” seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song or other's speech, but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?
Does seeing/colour itself say “other”?
Does sound itself say “other”?
Does movement/colour itself say “other”?
Or does thought add “that is someone/something over there”?
Are others somehow outside of seeing? Where does seeing end and "other" begin? Can you see a boundary?

Also, is there space where these others exist? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content? Where exactly is here?
Where is the boundary between “me” and “other” in direct experience? Is there an actual line?
Or is there seeing, sound, sensation, thought — and thought says “me here, other there”?
Look at the “other.”
Can you find their inside?
Can you find their experience?
Can you find a separate entity inside them?
Or are there only colours, shapes, movements, sounds, and thoughts about a living being?
When you touch 'another', are there two sensations one of 'you' and one of 'other' or just one/just feeling? Are others outside of feeling? Where is the border that marks where feeling ends and "other" begin?

Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced? Can you directly experience "others"?
What is the difference between seeing an ‘stranger’, seeing an ’enemy’, and seeing a ‘friend’ in DE – they are all colour with different thought content, right? How is one colour different from another in DE if all there is to colour is seeing?

Now look at “me.”
Can you find your inside?
Can you find the one seeing?
Can you find a separate entity in here?
Or are there sensations, seeing, sounds, thoughts?
So what is “other” made of in direct experience? Colour. Sound. Thought-label. Maybe sensation. Does “otherness” exist without thought?
If we have to repeat the cup of coffee/apple example but with a “person”:
Taste labelled ‘person’ is known
Colour labelled ‘person’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘person’ is known
Smell labelled ‘person’ is known
Thought about/of a ‘person’ is known
However, is a ‘person' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘person’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘person’? Can ‘a person’ be found in actual experience?

Try this with an easy “other” first. Then later we’ll bring in the difficult person and see how memory and emotional charge construct “relationship.”
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali :),

Before thought says “dog,” “person,” “stranger,” “other,” what is actually here? Colour? Sound? Sensation? Thought?

Colour, sensation, sound, then thought.

Others in comparison to what?

In comparison to self. But both other and self are thought concepts.

Can you find a self in other human bodies?

No.

How do you KNOW it͛s there?

It is not known. It's familiarity. There are usually stronger sensations when seeing another human. Thought also adds other to the sensations.  There's also often a tightening sensation, in expectation of being seen or hurt. Both expectations are added by thought. 

If it is seen that I don't own a mind then how can others own their minds?

They don't own it.

It is only seen momentarily that I don't own a mind. Often thoughts have a strong pull and identification with thought happens.

Does seeing/colour itself say “other”?

No. Seeing just is.

Does sound itself say “other”?

No. It just is.

Does movement/colour itself say “other”?

No.

Or does thought add “that is someone/something over there”?

Yes.

Are others somehow outside of seeing?

No. Thought is quick to add the label 'other' to the experience. that's all. A learned mechanism. 

Where does seeing end and "other" begin?

There are no boundaries in seeing. One doesn't end and another begins.

Can you see a boundary?

no.

is there space where these others exist?

There isn't.

What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

There is no difference between the two. Here and there are labels created by thought.

Where exactly is here?

Nowhere.

Where is the boundary between “me” and “other” in direct experience?

There are no boundaries between the two. Thought labels the two.

Is there an actual line?

There isn't.

Or is there seeing, sound, sensation, thought — and thought says “me here, other there”?

exactly.

Can you find their inside?

In DE their inside cannot be found. It doesn't exist.

Can you find their experience?

No. IN DE 'their experience' doesn't exist. It's a thought concept. 

Can you find a separate entity inside them?

No.

Or are there only colours, shapes, movements, sounds, and thoughts about a living being?

yes

When you touch 'another', are there two sensations one of 'you' and one of 'other' or just one/just feeling?

Just one. Just sensation.

Are others outside of feeling?

No.

Where is the border that marks where feeling ends and "other" begin?

There's no border.

Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced?

No, it cannot.

Can you directly experience "others"?

No. There is just experience, without 'me', or 'other'.

What is the difference between seeing an ‘stranger’, seeing an ’enemy’, and seeing a ‘friend’ in DE – they are all colour with different thought content, right?

yes

How is one colour different from another in DE if all there is to colour is seeing?

They are the same, but feel different. Just like sensations. Not all sensations feel the same.

Can you find your inside?

I can put my attention to the body's inside. In DE that is just sensation, without the label 'inside' added to it.

Can you find the one seeing?

Thought says 'me, me', then it quiets down, and there's silence.

Can you find a separate entity in here?

No.

Or are there sensations, seeing, sounds, thoughts?

yes

Does “otherness” exist without thought?

It doesn't

However, is a ‘person' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

No. It's just a label.

Is there really an ‘person’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘person’?

There's colour, sensation, hearing, smell and thought about a person

Can ‘a person’ be found in actual experience?

It cannot. It doesn't exist. 

Excellent questions thank you so much! I find that the questions work as if peeling an onion. Often I find that my answers don't matter much, they are pretty predictable. It's engaging with the questions that matters. 

Love,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla
Beautiful. This is very clear looking.

There is just experience, without ‘me’ or ‘other’.

Yes. Colour, sound, sensation, thought just appear. Then thought says “person,” “dog,” “stranger,” “friend,” “enemy,” “other.” But in direct experience, “otherness” is not found.

When you touch 'another', are there two sensations one of 'you' and one of 'other' or just one/just feeling?

Just one. Just sensation.

How did that one feel in DE? Sometimes it could be quite trippy :)

Now let’s keep this precise.

Can ‘a person’ be found in actual experience?

It cannot. It doesn’t exist.

Careful. We are not making a metaphysical statement that people don’t exist in ordinary life.
In ordinary language, of course there are people, dogs, strangers, family members, bosses, sons.
But in direct experience, what is actually found? Colour, sound, smell, sensation, thought about “person.” So the clean way to say it is:
A person is not found in direct experience as a separate solid entity. “Person” is a label added to colour, sound, sensation, smell, movement, and thought.

What is the difference between seeing a stranger, an enemy, and a friend in DE — they are all colour with different thought content, right?

Yes.

Exactly. But then:

They are the same, but feel different. Just like sensations.

Look closely.
Does colour itself feel like “friend”?
Does colour itself feel like “enemy”?
Does colour itself feel like “stranger”?
Or does colour appear, then sensation appears, then thought says “friend,” “enemy,” “danger,” “safe,” “I like them,” “I don’t like them”?
So the difference is not in seeing itself. The difference is in sensation plus thought-content.
A face appears. Sensation appears. Thought says “friend.”
A face appears. Sensation appears. Thought says “enemy.”
A face appears. Sensation appears. Thought says “stranger.”
Is the “friend-ness,” “enemy-ness,” or “stranger-ness” in the colour?
Or is it added by thought?

Now this is important:

There’s also often a tightening sensation, in expectation of being seen or hurt.

Good. This is where “other” becomes personal.
When “being seen” appears, what is actual?
Sensation? Thought? Image of yourself? Image of them looking? Fear? A story of being judged?
Can “being seen” be found in direct experience? Or is it thought plus sensation?

Before looking at the relationship, let’s look only at hurt.
Bring this person to mind only enough for the sensation of hurt to appear. Then drop the image, the story, the history, and the question of what happened. Stay only with what is here now.
What is hurt before the label “hurt”?
Is it pressure? Tightness? Ache? Heat? Contraction? Heaviness? Numbness?
Does the sensation itself say “hurt”?
Does it say “because of them”?
Does it say “I was hurt”?
Does it say “this will never change”?
Or are those thoughts added to sensation?
Without the story, is hurt personal? Is there someone hurt?
Or is there sensation, thought, image, memory — and thought says “I am hurt”?
Stay with the sensation for 60 seconds.
Does it stay the same?
Does it move?
Does it have edges?
Does it have a centre?
Does it belong to anyone?
No need to forgive. No need to understand the relationship. No need to make peace.
Just this:
What is hurt in direct experience?
What is the pain made of before the label “pain”?
Does the sensation itself say anything about them?
Does it say anything about Lilla?
Without the story of “me and them,” what remains?

Often I find that my answers don’t matter much, they are pretty predictable. It’s engaging with the questions that matters.

Yes. The looking matters more than producing a perfect answer. But still notice: “my answers” is also thought claiming. Answers appear. Seeing appears. Clarity appears. Confusion appears. No owner is found. So answer naturally. The wording is useful because it shows where thought still hides.
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

Just one. Just sensation. How did that one feel in DE?

I cannot really put it to words. 

Does colour itself feel like “friend”?

No. It's neutral

Does colour itself feel like “enemy”?

No

Does colour itself feel like “stranger”?

No

Or does colour appear, then sensation appears, then thought says “friend,” “enemy,” “danger,” “safe,” “I like them,” “I don’t like them”?

Exactly

Is the “friend-ness,” “enemy-ness,” or “stranger-ness” in the colour?
Or is it added by thought?

It's added by thought.

When “being seen” appears, what is actual?

A sensation. Thought adds the label 'uncomfortable' to the sensation.

Can “being seen” be found in direct experience? Or is it thought plus sensation?

It's sensation plus thought.

What is hurt before the label “hurt”?

It's a sensation.

Is it pressure? Tightness? Ache? Heat? Contraction? Heaviness? Numbness?

It's pressure and tightness.

Does the sensation itself say “hurt”?

No

Does it say “because of them”?

No

Does it say “I was hurt”?

No

Does it say “this will never change”?

No.

Or are those thoughts added to sensation?

yes

Without the story, is hurt personal? Is there someone hurt?

It's not personal and there isn't an entity that is hurt.

Or is there sensation, thought, image, memory — and thought says “I am hurt”?

yes

Stay with the sensation for 60 seconds.Does it stay the same?

The way the sensation was changing was surprising to observe. I mean I have years under my belt looking inside, observing emotions, etc, yet I don't remember looking with the intention if the feeling stays the same or not.

Does it move?

slightly

Does it have edges?

no

Does it have a centre?

no

Does it belong to anyone?

no

What is hurt in direct experience?

Changing sensations, and thought says it's hurt.

What is the pain made of before the label “pain”?

sensation.

Does the sensation itself say anything about them?

no

Does it say anything about Lilla?

no

Without the story of “me and them,” what remains?

Just sensation without cause and effect.

Thank you :)
Love,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla
Beautiful. This is very clear:

Without the story of ‘me and them,’ what remains?

Just sensation without cause and effect.

Yes. Stay there. What was found for hurt were sensations with no edges and center, with no owner and no one being hurt, no cause, no them and no Lilla. Thought says “hurt”, “because of them”, “I was hurt”, “this won’t change.” But the sensation itself says none of that. Right?

This is exactly the same mechanism again:
Colour appears — thought says “friend/enemy/stranger.”
Sensation appears — thought says “hurt.”
Thought appears — thought says “my thought.”
Action appears — thought says “I did it.”
Pain appears — thought says “this happened to me.”
But when looked at directly, no owner is found.

Now let’s go one step deeper.
When the story “me and them” appears, look at it as a thought only - not what the story is about, not whether it is true, or it should stop. Just: what is the story made of?
Images? Words? Mental sensations? Memory? Expectation?
Can “relationship” be found in direct experience? Or is “relationship” a label for thoughts, images, sensations, memories, hopes, fears, and expectations?

Bring the difficult person to mind lightly. Do not go into the story. Just check:
Is “them” here now?
Is “me” here now?
Is “relationship” here now?
Or are there images, sensations, thoughts, and labels?
And if hurt appears again, don’t analyse it. Stay with the same clean looking:
What is hurt before the label?
Does it belong to anyone?
Does it have a cause in direct experience?
Without the story, what remains?
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali :)

it's gonna be a short one this time :)

what is the story made of?
Images? Words? Mental sensations? Memory? Expectation?

Words and images. Images from memories and future expectations.

Can “relationship” be found in direct experience?

no

Or is “relationship” a label for thoughts, images, sensations, memories, hopes, fears, and expectations?

Yes, exactly

Is “them” here now?

No

Is “me” here now?

No

Is “relationship” here now?

no. Thought can create the illusion of the relationship any time that person comes to my mind though.

Or are there images, sensations, thoughts, and labels?

Yes

What is hurt before the label?

Sensation with occasional thought commentary

Does it belong to anyone?

no

Does it have a cause in direct experience?

no

Without the story, what remains?

Sensation, and thoughts appearing

Thank you.
Love,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla
Beautiful. Very clear.

“Relationship” cannot be found in direct experience.

Yes. What is found - images, words, sensations, memory, expectation, thought-labels? But “relationship” itself is not found as an actual thing.
Now this is the important sentence:

Thought can create the illusion of the relationship any time that person comes to my mind though.

Good. Look right there.
Does thought actually create a relationship?
Or does thought create images, words, sensations, memories, expectations — and then label the whole bundle “relationship”?
When this person comes to mind, what is actually here? Image, thought, sensation, maybe contraction or hope, maybe sadness or expectation.
But is the person here? Is Lilla here? Is a relationship here?
Or is there just this bundle appearing, with thought saying “this is my relationship with them”?
Now check the word illusion.
Is there anyone fooled by the illusion?
Or are there images, sensations, thoughts — then thought says “I am caught in the relationship story”?
When the story appears, does it happen to someone? Or does the story simply appear?
No need to stop the story or to fix the relationship in inquiry. No need to make peace with it.
Just see… Story appears. Sensation appears. Thought says “me and them.” But “me,” “them,” and “relationship” are not found in direct experience...

Now bring it into real life. Next time this person comes to mind (or even in "person"), pause for a moment and check:
What is actual right now?
What is thought adding?
Is the person here? Is the hurt one here? Is relationship here?
Or only image, sensation, thought, memory, expectation?
And one more:
Without thought, can “relationship” exist?
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

Does thought actually create a relationship?

No.

Or does thought create images, words, sensations, memories, expectations — and then label the whole bundle “relationship”?

Yes

But is the person here?

No

Is Lilla here?

No. I get subtle body-map sensations, and silence. No response to the questions.

Is a relationship here?

No. Sensation of memories appear, but they are merely familiar sensations, that thought labels relationship. 

Or is there just this bundle appearing, with thought saying “this is my relationship with them”?

Yes

Is there anyone fooled by the illusion?

No, there isn't

Or are there images, sensations, thoughts — then thought says “I am caught in the relationship story”?

Yes.

When the story appears, does it happen to someone?

Thought says "with me, with me', then there's silence. The mechanism hasn't changed.

Or does the story simply appear?

yes.

Thank you very much for the pointers regarding the real life situation as well.I'm also noticing, that you've been adding images to be created by thought. You're right, and it's helping to observe what thought adds to the experience that is already present. 

Love,
Lilla