realizing selflessness

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Jul 23, 2026 11:44 pm

[Our messages might "cross in the mail," but here we go anyway:]

P.S. I was realizing how much I appreciate all the examples you’ve given of lists of “what’s actually here,” including not only sense perceptions but also thoughts — and emotions, which I understand to be combinations of thoughts and bodily sensations, but it seems useful sometimes to name them as emotions.

It’s been obvious to me all along that a list of “what’s actually here” would include sense perceptions. And from when I first started here at LU, it was made clear that “direct experience” also includes the fact that thoughts arise. But I guess I’d been thinking that the content of thoughts didn’t count. Yeah, hold on a minute . . .

From an early post from my first LU guide:
Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
At the moment, it seems to me that the last line there is misleading, if not just plain wrong. My most generous interpretation is that it’s “skillful means” (à la Buddhism) when starting these conversations, to make sure folks really get that this isn’t about some sort of metaphysical or philosophical speculation. Well, or perhaps "Thoughts Arising" is supposed to mean not just the fact that a thought arose but seeing what the thought was. Yeah, maybe that's it and I misinterpreted it.

As you said:
If the thought “Something is missing” appears, the occurrence of that thought is actual. What is not necessarily actual is what the thought claims:
And:
Everything appearing is actual as an event.
Not everything claimed by an appearing thought is actual as fact.
But even those statements don’t make it entirely clear. I think your various examples are what helped me to see that the content of thoughts should be included in an inventory of what’s actually here, as long as one doesn’t mistakenly think that what the content refers to is necessarily actual.

And I think the reason the content of the thoughts should be included is that listing them along with sense experiences is a good way to disidentify from them. And it seems that disidentifying with thoughts is key to what we're doing here (as in Zen), right?

It occurs to me that in teaching basic Zen meditation practices, I don’t just say that when you realize you were caught up in thoughts, you return your attention to the breath. I say to notice the thought — i.e., its content — and then return to the breath. I even have folks try listing all the thoughts they can remember that arose during a sitting period after the period is over, to emphasize that thoughts are an intrinsic part of the practice and also that it’s worth noticing what you get caught up in — not analyzing it, just noticing it — although I’m not sure I was ever entirely clear on why that was important.

Anyhow, I was glad I realized clearly and definitively, in the middle of composing my previous post, that a "what's actually here" list should include the content of thoughts, not just sense perceptions.

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Fri Jul 24, 2026 4:30 pm

[Post #3 of this batch.]

I’d said yesterday that even though I understand emotions to be a combination of thoughts and bodily sensations, it seems useful sometimes, like in doing an inventory of “what’s actually here,” to stick with labeling them as emotions. And I still think that.

But this morning I was noticing, yet again, my resistance to getting started on my work, and I was wondering how to get back to a sense that since experience is “merely” thoughts (which are fleeting and seem insubstantial) and sensations (which are ordinarily no worse than mildly uncomfortable), what could be the problem? And then it occurred to me that it might be helpful to dissect “resistance” — though I was also aware that spending time doing that, especially in writing, is also a form of procrastination.

So here I am at the library, poised to work, and actually I already responded to a student's email message, but now I need to return to the class discussion boards, and I feel resistant.

So, what is actually here?

The sentence “I feel resistant.”
Tightness in throat and perhaps in chest.
Vague thoughts of not wanting to start.
A bit of tension in jaw.
Choked-up feeling in throat and feeling of tears starting to pool.
Thoughts of WTF? Why is this such an issue for me?!
Thoughts of wishing I could just do whatever I feel like doing, which, these days, often — including right now — means stuff related to awakening.
Memory of some autistic folks talking about “demand resistance” as a thing. Trying to think of abbreviation for a diagnosis. Googled it: PDA, “pathological demand avoidance.” I don’t I fit the criteria for that, but I relate.
Um . . .
Thoughts: The work I need to do today isn’t even horrible or boring work. So again, WTF?
Still tightness in throat.

Hmm.

I suppose I hoped that dissecting “resistance” and disidentifying to some dgree from the thoughts would help it to seem less bothersome. And a Buddhist pedant in my head notes that one shouldn’t use awareness to try to make things go away.

Obviously, as you noted before, I can just go ahead and work: Open the correct web page, read a student’s post, respond to it; read a post, respond; read a post, respond; etc.

Thought comes to mind: When I was feeling really intense resistance recently, I realized I was burnt out and it was totally understandable, and some part of me was going to keep throwing a tantrum until I attended to its suffering. In that case, I needed to cut myself some slack and also tell my boss for my editing job that I needed a few weeks off.

Is there something like that going on here? Maybe just still mild burnout that I can’t do much about but can at least be sympathetic to?

My students just watched a video by Thich Nhat Hanh in which he talks about embracing our anger tenderly, like a mother embracing a crying baby. Can I embrace my resistance tenderly? And will I then notice that I need to feed it or change its diaper or put it down for a nap? (Thich Nhat Hanh didn’t actually take his analogy that far.)

Another thought: I sometimes notice that I have a sense of how long my work will actually take, and I get resistant when some part of me knows I don't actually need to be working yet. But I have a heap of overdue grading, so that's probably not relevant here. Or maybe it is. Maybe I know that I can and probably should (due to lingering burnout?) keep putting off doing more grading for a few days and should just do the responses to discussion posts, which need to be done today.

And I notice that the previous several paragraphs are full of thoughts that feel especially like they're about reality and like they're "mine." So I get suspicious that the thoughts want to be taken more seriously than is warranted. The "mine" part I understand to be bogus in some ultimate sense, but they do still feel like "my" thoughts about "me." The "reality" part is also convincing. Some thoughts do have a connection with reality. Therefore . . . ??? I dunno. I'm confused.

And a thought that has arisen a number of time while writing this post is that I don't want to use you/LU for free therapy. But of course, it's hard to know what the line is between therapy and whatever we're doing here, which we don't even have a good term for (or a good Amazon category).

Maybe I just need to go ahead and cry it out when I feel like this.

Ugh.

Any insight on any of this, vince?

OK, just go ahead and work . . . (Shite and onions!!!)

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vinceschubert
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jul 25, 2026 6:13 am

Re: “something missing” related to awakening:
What's actually here.... if said jovially.

Shite and onions!!! Time to work. Ugh.
Yes. That works—and there is some very clear seeing here.
First, a small but important correction:
The gradual changes you have noticed do count. The fact that they are recalled through thought does not make them false or insignificant.

There are two different questions:
• Conventionally: Has anything changed over time?
• In direct experience: What is appearing right now?
The first requires memory and comparison. That is perfectly legitimate when considering whether this inquiry is affecting ordinary life.
The second temporarily sets history aside to examine what is happening now.
So there is no need to dismiss the improvements merely because they are known through thought. They simply aren’t immediate sensory events at this moment.
When the thought “Something is missing” appears, what is actually here?
Yes. Exactly.
And your list answers it beautifully:
• the sentence “Something is missing”;
• contraction in the throat, jaw and chest;
• tears and sniffling;
• images of a desired future;
• memories of how long the search has lasted;
• frustration and petulance;
• thoughts about gradual improvement;
• thoughts about what needs doing;
• wiping the nose.
All of those are actually occurring.
But nowhere in the list is an actual missing thing.

There is a thought about something missing.
There is an image of a better future.
There is a bodily response to those thoughts and images.

The thought is actual as an event. Its claim that something is missing has not been established as actuality.
I would remove only one word from this:
Thoughts are seen as merely thoughts.
Not merely thoughts. Thoughts are real biological events and can produce substantial bodily responses. They just aren’t necessarily accurate reports of what they refer to.
OK, so now what?
Nothing spiritual is required.
No special state needs to replace the tears, frustration or longing.

“This is it” doesn’t mean:
This is wonderful.
This is enough for me.
I should stop wanting something different.


It means:
Nothing in that list is preventing actuality from being actual.
Even the thought that something is missing is not itself missing from THIS.
There is one subtle trap here:
When seeking arises, just look at what’s actually here.
That is useful—as long as it does not become another corrective procedure:

Seeking has appeared.
Seeking is futile.
I must stop seeking and return to actuality.

Then the little Zen master has simply been promoted to supervisor.
Seeking doesn’t have to stop. When it is noticed as sensations, thoughts and images, the looking has already happened. There is no additional seeker behind it who must be dismantled.

The fictional “I” is not literally reconstructed. What is reconstructed is the story of someone located here, deprived of something located in the future.

And this provides a natural transition into what you call work.
The same pattern may be operating there:
I am here.
The completed task is over there.
I must force myself across the distance between them.

That story makes the task heavy before anything has even happened.

But what is actually here?
Perhaps:
A screen.
A document.
A sentence waiting unfinished.
Tightness.
Reluctance.
A hand near the keyboard.
A thought saying, “Ugh.”

That needn’t be called work. It can become play with discovery.
Not play in the sense that it must feel pleasant. Not a positive-thinking trick designed to make reluctance disappear.
Play means curiosity without demanding a particular outcome.
Instead of:
“I must get this work done,”
the invitation becomes:
“Let’s discover what happens when the document is opened.”
Then:
“Let’s discover whether one sentence appears.”
Then perhaps:
“Was there a separate decision-maker who created that sentence, or did words begin arriving?”

The task itself becomes part of the investigation:
• What does resistance consist of before it is called resistance?
• Does willingness have to appear before the first movement happens?
• Is a controller required for the hand to reach the keyboard?
• Can one sentence be written without carrying the imagined weight of the finished task?
• What happens when curiosity replaces the demand to arrive?
Now inquiry and ordinary activity are no longer competing for your time.

Opening the document is inquiry.
Feeling reluctance is inquiry.
Watching a sentence form is inquiry.
Discovering that action can occur without enthusiasm is inquiry.

And the jovial cursing fits perfectly. It punctures the solemn story that a burdened “me” must drag everything into completion.
Shite and onions! Let’s see what happens when the file opens.
Not:
Time to force myself to work.
But:
Time to play—and discover what life writes next.
Anyhow, I was glad I realized clearly and definitively, in the middle of composing my previous post, that a "what's actually here" list should include the content of thoughts, not just sense perceptions.
Yes. That is a significant clarification. You just jumped a grade. This is next-level stuff.
A “what’s actually here” list that excludes thought would present an incomplete picture of experiencing. Thoughts, memories, mental images, judgements and explanations are all actually appearing.
The crucial distinction is between the content appearing and the content being factual.
For example, “Something is missing” is the content of an actual thought. But something really is missing is the claim made by that thought. The claim is not confirmed merely because the thought appears.
Likewise, a thought about how long the search has lasted is actually here. The years themselves are not here; they are represented now through memory and thought.
So the list can include thought-content quite specifically:
• Thought: “Something is missing.”
• Image of a future breakthrough.
• Memory of beginning the search.
• Judgement: “I should be further along.”
• Tightening in the throat and chest.
• Tears arising.
That gives a much fuller view than listing sensations alone. It reveals not only the bodily response, but the story to which the body may be responding.
Thought is part of actuality. Its content is not automatically a description of actuality.
That is the distinction you caught—and it is an important one.
Maybe I just need to go ahead and cry it out when I feel like this.
if the body wants to cry (& circumstances permit) then during that expression it's very likely that something will be discovered.
I notice that the previous several paragraphs are full of thoughts that feel especially like they're about reality and like they're "mine." So I get suspicious that the thoughts want to be taken more seriously than is warranted. The "mine" part I understand to be bogus in some ultimate sense, but they do still feel like "my" thoughts about "me." The "reality" part is also convincing. Some thoughts do have a connection with reality. Therefore . . . ??? I dunno. I'm confused.
The confusion makes sense, because the simple distinction “sense perception is real; thought is unreal” has now broken down—and it needed to.
Thoughts are actual events, and some thought-content does correspond quite accurately with conventional reality. The thought “My keys are on the table” may be verified by looking. The thought “The meeting starts at ten” may be verified by checking the calendar. So we cannot dismiss something merely because it appears as thought.
The useful distinctions are:
• A thought is actual as an event.
• Its content is a representation or claim.
• That claim may be accurate, inaccurate or impossible to verify.
• The feeling of certainty accompanying it does not determine which.
A thought can feel profoundly real and still be wrong. Another can feel vague and turn out to be accurate. The reality-feeling is itself part of what is actually here—perhaps familiarity, emotional charge, bodily contraction or a sense of certainty—but it is not a truth detector.
The same applies to mine. A thought may arrive carrying an unmistakable feeling of “my thought about me.” That feeling is not bogus as an experience. Ownership-feeling is genuinely occurring. But does it establish an owner?
Look at a thought as it appears. Was it selected before it arrived? Was its wording known in advance? Can a thinker be found separately from the thought, producing it? Or do thought and the ownership-tag “mine” both appear?
So there is no need to become suspicious of every thought or to take none of them seriously. That would merely replace unquestioning belief with unquestioning disbelief.
Instead ask:
• What is the actual thought?
• What does it claim?
• Can that claim be checked?
• Is it reporting an observable event, making an inference, predicting the future or evaluating “me”?
• Does the feeling that it is mine reveal an owner—or only another feature of the experience?
For example:
“There is tightness in the throat” can be checked directly.
“The tightness means I am failing” is an interpretation.
“I have been doing this for years” is a conventional claim supported by memory and records.
“Therefore I should be further along” is a judgement based on an imagined timetable.
“Something is missing” may accurately report a feeling of lack, but it does not prove that an actual missing thing exists.
So the conclusion is neither “thoughts describe reality” nor “thoughts are only stories.” Thoughts are the brain’s representations of reality, possibilities, memories, predictions and fantasies. Sometimes they are useful and accurate; sometimes not.
The investigation is simply learning not to confuse:
the actuality of a thought appearing,
the apparent ownership of that thought,
and the truth of what the thought claims.

Those are three different things—even when they arrive bundled together as “my very convincing thought about reality.”
I was noticing, yet again, my resistance to getting started on my work, and I was wondering how to get back to a sense that since experience is “merely” thoughts (which are fleeting and seem insubstantial) and sensations (which are ordinarily no worse than mildly uncomfortable), what could be the problem? And then it occurred to me that it might be helpful to dissect “resistance” — though I was also aware that spending time doing that, especially in writing, is also a form of procrastination.

So here I am at the library, poised to work, and actually I already responded to a student's email message, but now I need to return to the class discussion boards, and I feel resistant.

So, what is actually here?

The sentence “I feel resistant.”
Tightness in throat and perhaps in chest.
Vague thoughts of not wanting to start.
A bit of tension in jaw.
Choked-up feeling in throat and feeling of tears starting to pool.
Thoughts of WTF? Why is this such an issue for me?!
Thoughts of wishing I could just do whatever I feel like doing, which, these days, often — including right now — means stuff related to awakening.
Memory of some autistic folks talking about “demand resistance” as a thing. Trying to think of abbreviation for a diagnosis. Googled it: PDA, “pathological demand avoidance.” I don’t I fit the criteria for that, but I relate.
Um . . .
Thoughts: The work I need to do today isn’t even horrible or boring work. So again, WTF?
Still tightness in throat.

Hmm.

I suppose I hoped that dissecting “resistance” and disidentifying to some dgree from the thoughts would help it to seem less bothersome. And a Buddhist pedant in my head notes that one shouldn’t use awareness to try to make things go away.
This is a very useful dissection—but it has now probably given you everything it can give without becoming further procrastination.
First, I would again remove “merely.” Thoughts and sensations may be fleeting, but that does not make them trivial. A brief thought can trigger a substantial biological response. Tightness, tears and the urge to escape are not evidence of an actual danger, but neither are they nothing. The nervous system is responding to the task as a demand, even though another part says the task is perfectly manageable.
And notice: the difficulty is not literally starting work. You have already answered a student’s email. The resistance appeared around transitioning to the discussion boards. That is more precise and less overwhelming than the global story “Why is work such an issue for me?”
What you call resistance is not one thing. It currently includes:
• throat and chest contraction;
• tension in the jaw;
• tears beginning;
• thoughts saying “I don’t want to”;
• a wish to be free from demands;
• attraction towards awakening-related activity;
• memory of explanations such as PDA;
• judgement that the task isn’t bad enough to justify the reaction;
• frustration about having the reaction;
• hope that examining it will make it easier.
That final item is important. The investigation began partly as an attempt to alter the experience. That is not a spiritual crime. Of course relief is wanted. But once this is recognised, there is no need for the Buddhist pedant to patrol the library shouting that noticing must be completely free of ulterior motives. He can be thanked and sent off for tea.
The PDA idea may or may not prove useful as a conventional explanation. But it is not needed to discover what happens next. Likewise, the resistance does not need to be understood, dissolved or disidentified from before action can occur.
This is where the investigation can move out of writing and become play through action.
The question is no longer:
“How can I get rid of enough resistance to work?”
It becomes:
“Can one small movement happen while resistance remains exactly as it is?”
So don’t take on the class discussion boards as an enormous conceptual object. Let the next experiment be very small:
• Notice the tight throat.
• Let the thought “I don’t want to” remain unanswered.
• Open one discussion board.
• Read one student’s post without promising to respond.
• Discover what happens next.
Perhaps a response begins forming. Perhaps resistance intensifies. Perhaps another tab is opened. Whatever happens gives fresh information.
This is not using noticing to make resistance disappear. It is discovering whether resistance actually possesses the power attributed to it. Does reluctance prevent anything from happehing—or can a happening and reluctance occur together?
And if a sentence gets written, look back: was willingness required first? Was there a separate controller who defeated resistance, or did bodily contraction, resistant thoughts, reading and typing all unfold together?
Resistance does not have to become permission before life moves.
Shite and onions. Tight throat, tears, one discussion post—and let’s discover what happens.

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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vinceschubert
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jul 25, 2026 12:17 pm

Knowing there is no separate “me” does not immediately remove the felt sense of being one. Intellectual recognition and bodily conditioning move at different speeds.

The body has spent decades organising experience around:

a point behind the eyes,
a boundary at the skin,
thoughts marked as “mine,”
sensations interpreted as “happening to me,”
a constant orientation of “here” facing “out there.”

That pattern can remain even when thought clearly understands that no separate owner can be found.
The important shift is this:
The felt “me” is not evidence of a me. It is another experience.

Right now, what is the felt me actually made of?
Perhaps:
pressure behind the eyes,
tightness in the face, throat, or chest,
a sense of looking outward from inside the head,
the outline of the body,
a thought saying, “I am here,”
a subtle sense that experience is happening to someone.

Look carefully: are any of those a separate experiencer?

Or are they all experienced?

The pressure is experienced.
The body boundary is experienced.
The thought “I’m here” is experienced.
The sense of ownership is experienced.

Even the feeling of being outside everything else is inside experiencing.

That is the crucial point. The felt me is not standing apart from experience, observing it. It appears within the same field as sound, warmth, breath, thought, and colour.

Do not try to get rid of it. That creates another imagined manager:

“I understand there is no me, so I must eliminate this feeling of me.”

That is the seeker rebuilding itself as the one who must finish the job.

Instead, let the felt me be here and investigate it as gently as you would investigate a sound:

Where is it?
What shape does it have?
Does it have a centre?
Does it remain still, or does it change?
Apart from thought, does it say it is “me”?
Is it experiencing anything, or is it itself being experienced?

You may find no dramatic disappearance. The sensation of “me-here” may remain.

But its meaning can change.

It stops being:
proof of a separate self
and becomes:
a familiar bodily pattern appearing now.

There may still be a felt centre, but no actual centre can be found. The feeling of “me” is real as a feeling; the separate entity it seems to represent is not found.

v
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Sat Jul 25, 2026 4:59 pm

Wow, thank you for all of this. I’ve been doing a lot of crying in this process, but I have tears of gratitude now for you, vince.

First, a small but important correction:
The gradual changes you have noticed do count.
Thank you for the comment about the conventional view vs. direct experience. (I started to say relative vs. absolute, but I don’t think that’s quite the same.) I do think the gradual changes count, and I’m grateful for them. I just wasn’t counting them in looking at “what’s actually here,” which seems like a pointer to direct experience. But, yeah, I won’t dismiss them.

(A student just shared an article she found, “I Am Terrible At Meditation. I Do It Anyway,” in which the author says that meditation “slowly improves my spiritual bone density.”)

But nowhere in the list is an actual missing thing.
Yep. Got that (though I realized, when I reread my post, that I didn’t actually say it).
And I felt it, in that I was willing to consider that “This is it” and I had a bit of a felt sense of “This is it” — “this” being what’s actually here, without the “missing” thing.

Not merely thoughts. Thoughts are real biological events and can produce substantial bodily responses. They just aren’t necessarily accurate reports of what they refer to.
Yeah, OK, that’s a helpful corrective. I might continue to think of them as “merely thoughts,” as a reminder that their content is not necessarily accurate. But, yes, I should not dismiss the effect they have. Oh my goodness do they have an effect.
“This is it” doesn’t mean:
This is wonderful.
This is enough for me.
I should stop wanting something different.
I get this, but it’s a good reminder. I imagine some part of me will keep getting confused about that.
It means:
Nothing in that list is preventing actuality from being actual.
This phrasing isn’t clicking for me the moment. My brain is wondering why I would care about “actuality being actual.” Hmm . . .
Oh, OK, I think it’s another way of pointing to “This is it.”
Wanting something different is included. Not thinking current experience is wonderful or enough is included. The thought that something is missing is included.
Got it.
(I continue to find it odd sometimes that “This is it” is evocative for me.)
When seeking arises, just look at what’s actually here.
That is useful—as long as it does not become another corrective procedure:

Seeking has appeared.
Seeking is futile.
I must stop seeking and return to actuality.
Good warning. I could easily fall into that, and presumably have already fallen into it.
Seeking doesn’t have to stop. When it is noticed as sensations, thoughts and images, the looking has already happened. There is no additional seeker behind it who must be dismantled.
Yes.
(This reminds me of how it can be helpful, in teaching basic Zen practice, to point out that when you realize you were caught up in thought, you’re no longer caught up in thought.)

************************
And this provides a natural transition into what you call work.
The same pattern may be operating there:
I am here.
The completed task is over there.
I must force myself across the distance between them.
That story makes the task heavy before anything has even happened.
Yep.
But what is actually here?
Perhaps:
A screen.
A document.
A sentence waiting unfinished.
(A small note about how K’s mind works: If there’s a sentence waiting unfinished, there probably isn’t too much of a problem. It’s starting the sentence that’s particularly difficult — initiating or switching tasks. K’s mind has a lot of inertia: it’s hard to get it started, and once it’s started, it’s hard to stop it. I noticed this decades before hearing the phrase “autistic inertia.”)
Tightness.
Reluctance.
A hand near the keyboard.
A thought saying, “Ugh.”
That needn’t be called work. It can become play with discovery.
Mind rolls its eyes slightly and says, “Ugh,” but trusts vince enough to know that this probably won’t be its final verdict.

[I’m about to leave the house to continue this at the coffee shop where I sometimes do my work, and I do need to do some work this morning, so it’s may get a road test . . . ]

[Continuing at coffee shop . . . ]

OK, so, vince says “work” can become “play with discovery.”
Not “play” like it has to be pleasant or as a trick to make reluctance vanish.
Rather: Curiosity. Let’s discover . . . Was there a decision-maker (or thinker or doer)? What does resistance consist of before being named that?
• Does willingness have to appear before the first movement happens?
Obviously not, but it sure feels like it sometimes.
• Can one sentence be written without carrying the imagined weight of the finished task?
That’s a good one for those of us who struggle with task-initiation.
• What happens when curiosity replaces the demand to arrive?
That’s a tough one when there’s a deadline.
Now inquiry and ordinary activity are no longer competing for your time.
:-) As you figured, that sounds appealing.
Shite and onions! Let’s see what happens when the file opens.
Got a chuckle out of that. So apparently that one really is working for me as a jovial curse.

A “what’s actually here” list that excludes thought would present an incomplete picture of experiencing. Thoughts, memories, mental images, judgements and explanations are all actually appearing.
Yes.
I have teaching/guiding-related thoughts all the time and have mostly been trying to set them aside here for now, but I wonder if other folks being guided at LU are unhelpfully being led to think that the content of thoughts should be ignored, rather than just recognized as not necessarily corresponding with reality. Again, I can entertain the possibility that this could be skillful means at the beginning, but I’m suspicious that it’s actually a misleading lack of nuance, even at the beginning. In the list of what counts as “actual or direct experience,” instead of “Thoughts Arising (but not their content),” I wonder if it might be better to say something like, “Thoughts that arise (the words and images, but WITHOUT assuming that their content corresponds with reality).” (End of pedagogical digression.)

So there is no need to become suspicious of every thought or to take none of them seriously. That would merely replace unquestioning belief with unquestioning disbelief.
Yes. Right.
Claims can be checked. (Wondering again if what we’re doing here can be understood as cognitive therapy but carried all the way to examining even ideas like “me” and “time” and “causation.”)

The investigation is simply learning not to confuse:
the actuality of a thought appearing,
the apparent ownership of that thought,
and the truth of what the thought claims.
Those are three different things—even when they arrive bundled together as “my very convincing thought about reality.”
Got a chuckle out of this, maybe because of how nicely these delusions/illusions were wrapped up into a tidy little package.

• hope that examining it will make it easier.
That final item is important. The investigation began partly as an attempt to alter the experience. That is not a spiritual crime. Of course relief is wanted. But once this is recognised, there is no need for the Buddhist pedant to patrol the library shouting that noticing must be completely free of ulterior motives. He can be thanked and sent off for tea.
More chuckles (vince is in fine form and/or K is increasingly able to see the humor in life).

Incidentally, spouse’s diagnosis of current bout of resistance to work: K’s not wanting not to fall into burnout again.

And actually, I’ve blown off doing any more work this morning. I did respond to the student who sent me the article about meditation, but I’ve mostly been working on this post for the nearly two hours I’ve been at the coffee shop. (And I’m not sure how long I spent at home before this. Maybe an hour? Wow.)

************************

This is probably the most important part of this message:

I’ve been noticing something in addition to laughter that has arisen a number of times this morning, which I’m going to have hard time describing accurately: some sort of sweet tenderness toward life, with also a touch of the deep mystery of it all, maybe some gratitude — in response to you, to the student who emailed, to some music I liked on the coffee shop playlist, maybe to the hope of . . . I don’t know . . . emerging from where I’ve been for forty years.

These are not the same sort of tears as the ones I’ve mostly been having in this process.

At one point, this reminded me of a hypothesis I’ve had about my chronic depression (in addition to “autistic exhaustion,” which is certainly a big part of it): that my strategy for dealing with the existential terror of mortality has been to find life intolerable. So I think it’s a little scary for me to find life at all lovely.

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Oh, wow. Was about to post this and noticed that there’s a second message from you. It’s time to go home for lunch, but I’m glad to have more from you to read later.

Thank you, vince.

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whoknows
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2026 7:41 am

Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Sat Jul 25, 2026 8:10 pm

Elaborating on my possible fear of appreciating life:

I sometimes write comments under Angelo DiLullo’s YouTube videos (which is an odd thing for me; I’ve never written public comments on YouTube before). He reads most of the comments and sometimes responds, usually just with a heart and very occasionally with a comment, usually terse.

About a month ago, on a video that addressed the fears that can arise related to awakening, I asked, “Will my having been submerged in painful awareness of dukkha for four decades mean that I might more easily be able to move past the fear of the unknown?” and he replied, “Yes.” (And I replied, “Excellent news. Thanks.”)

There’s plenty of talk about fear at LU also, and I’ve wondered what sort of fear might arise for me.

And it seems that I just surfaced what might be a fear that could get in my way. Having glimmers of the possibility of finding life not only tolerable but maybe sometimes even lovely or hauntingly beautiful might trigger fear of the emergence of my existential terror about mortality, which I’ve speculated I’ve been keeping in check with the strategy of finding life excruciating, which makes death seem attractive. (Poor dear K. It’s been rough.)

Insights welcome.

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On to your second post, re: knowing there’s no “me” vs. the felt sense of a “me”:
The felt “me” is not evidence of a me. It is another experience.
This is clear to me.
Do not try to get rid of it. That creates another imagined manager:

“I understand there is no me, so I must eliminate this feeling of me.”
This is a helpful reminder.

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Collecting some important takeaways that I’m apt to forget or get confused about:

• “Thoughts are real biological events and can produce substantial bodily responses. They just aren’t necessarily accurate reports of what they refer to.”

• “‘This is it’ doesn’t mean:This is wonderful. This is enough for me. I should stop wanting something different.

• “When seeking arises, just look at what’s actually here” is a useful reminder to myself, as long as it doesn’t turn into “I must stop seeking and return to actuality.”

• There’s no need to try to eliminate the feeling of “me.” It can remain, and it can be investigated.


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