realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

Perhaps the moment for this has passed, but I just read your story “The House with Many Mirrors.” You’d said to “be aware of bodily reactions, and reply describing any resistance that appears” and to note when my body tells me I agree or disagree with what I’m reading.

I noticed that I have a hard time separating the reactions to the content of the story from the reactions to the idea that has lodged in my brain from somewhere that your stories and songs are generated with assistance from AI. Do I have that right? That's where most of the "resistance" is.

I suppose I mainly feel like I look forward to having the problem Elias is having in this story.

One way in which my situation will be different from Elias's is that my husband and one of my best friends (who lives far away but with whom I text regularly) are both long-time, serious Zen practitioners, and the main social interaction my husband and I have these days is with a small community grounded in contemplative prayer. So I would be able to talk with all of these people about a new view of "self" and world, or even if I didn't talk about it explicitly, which I imagine I might not, I wouldn't feel like an alien among them.

But I do think about how I do and will relate to people who are suffering, and whose suffering seems like it could be lightened by a “self”less view of reality, especially a few family members. I am aware that even the gentlest sort of evangelizing of this stuff is likely to be mainly annoying and alienating as well as fruitless.

I’ve always found dinner-party-type conversation to be mostly difficult, uncomfortable, and boring, so that wouldn’t feel like a big change. Well, I guess I would hope that I could be more lovingly present.

[whoknows]

Several tasks I need to do but don’t want to do.
Thought about one and immediately noticed throat and chest constrict. So that’s something.
Took another minute to remember to “laugh” (forced smirk and mental “ha”) and then imagine new path forming.
Then tried to remind myself of my own insight from yesterday: Why in the world should mere thoughts and bodily sensations be so disturbing?
Sounds compelling, but I’m not entirely feeling it.
And the “teacher’s pet” mind feels the need to share what it believes is a “correct” observation that I’m apparently trying to use all of this to make the difficulty and unhappiness go away, but making it go away isn’t what it's about.
But . . . But . . . It kind of is? (This aspect of this whole path is really hard to talk about and get a grip on. "Pain" vs. "suffering"; first and second arrow — all of that.)
And now I notice that writing all of this is, at least in part, a convincing way to procrastinate on actually doing any of those tasks.

OK, start again.
Think of tasks I don’t want to do.
I don’t want to! And I don’t want to feel like I don’t want to!
And really, wtf? Embarrassed once again that I can be undone by such ordinary things.
If I weren’t in a public place, I’d start sobbing.
And I know that all of that is somehow okay and can be part of this. But ugh!
OK, going to the restroom to cry . . .

Thinking of a video on your website by a pal of yours, who said, if I recall correctly, that what LU is doing is basically cognitive therapy, but they don’t admit that. I regularly wonder about the blurry boundary between therapy and “spiritual” guidance (there’s really no good term for this, is there?). I don’t want to use you/LU for free therapy. And “therapy” makes me think of gradually moving toward a happier self, which seems both wearisome and mostly beside the point of seeing that the “self” is a fiction. (I don't think those are necessarily contradictory. I've been known to make the case that working on the “self” in therapy is in a different realm from aiming to see that the “self” is illusory — that we should have two different ways of talking about these “selves.”)

Right, so, stories. What are the stories associated with my weird resistance to doing many ordinary work and life tasks? I don't know.

But are stories really the issue? I could chalk it all up to executive functioning difficulties associated with neurodivergence. Maybe I really should be looking for therapeutic insights and strategies here, not "spiritual" ones? But there's still probably some sort of story too.

Oy vey. (After typing that, my brain provided me with a little amusement by recalling the time I heard a Catholic priest say "Oy vey" in a homily. Just part of the general lexicon in New York City.)

Your thoughts?

[whoknows]

P.S. My husband pointed out this evening that I probably hadn't yet recovered from a state of burnout after a big project for work that was followed by two days of the discombobulation of having to stay with friends because our A/C had died right when the hottest weather so far this summer had set in. So, yeah, maybe I should've been lying around recovering rather than even thinking about trying to do useful tasks.

[vinceschubert]

Hi K,

Whether you meant that, for reasons unclear to me, I should NOT inquire into what is actually here now or whether the main point was just that the celebration thing is now particularly apt for me.

The celebration thing is certainly apt.
Inquiry will happen or not. Why do you keep looking when you know what you will (not) find?

It's past midnight here. More tomorrow.

much love & compassion.

v

[whoknows]

Hi, vince. Thanks for the late-night reply. And I appreciate the love and compassion.

whether you meant that, for reasons unclear to me, I should NOT inquire into what is actually here now or whether the main point was just that the celebration thing is now particularly apt for me.

The celebration thing is certainly apt.
Inquiry will happen or not. Why do you keep looking when you know what you will (not) find?

I’m not looking for watermelon in the fridge, since I’m confident I won’t find any, but I thought maybe it was helpful to still look and see what actually is in the fridge, maybe masquerading as a watermelon? (OK, pushed that analogy a little too far.) But, yeah, letting that inquiry “happen or not” makes sense.

Gratefully,
K

[whoknows]

At least for the moment, it seems clear, experientially, that there’s no need to pay any more heed to my thoughts, as if they’re important or relevant to “me,” than I would to a radio that had been left on in my head, tuned to some random station.

[whoknows]

Last night, spouse needed help with something that usually stresses both of us out. I kept noticing the unhappy thoughts and smirking and mentally saying, “Ha!” (not laughter exactly but more like “Caught you red-handed!”). Got much less caught up in constructing suffering.

[vinceschubert]

Hi K,

At least for the moment, it seems clear, experientially, that there’s no need to pay any more heed to my thoughts, as if they’re important or relevant to “me,” than I would to a radio that had been left on in my head, tuned to some random station.

Great start. Good story. What do you mean "seems clear"?
In the old world we would say "seems like a good idea, let's do it".
But we know that things don't work that way.
i'm interested in the consequences of "seems clear ".
Did it happen or not?
That is, did another thought turn up that said "remember don't pay he to these thoughts " or "let's evaluate this thought for usefulness. "

Last night, spouse needed help with something that usually stresses both of us out. I kept noticing the unhappy thoughts and smirking and mentally saying, “Ha!” (not laughter exactly but more like “Caught you red-handed!”). Got much less caught up in constructing suffering.

Excellent. Presumably your plastic brain evolving. 😀

v

[whoknows]

What do you mean "seems clear"?

Did it happen or not?
That is, did another thought turn up that said "remember don't pay he to these thoughts " or "let's evaluate this thought for usefulness .”

What happened was that for a little while, two days ago, thoughts felt just a bit less sticky than usual, a bit less compelling and less “mine.” And I continue to feel, to a lesser degree, like I can more easily let go of them, especially if I keep reminding myself of something like the image that the thoughts that arise are no more relevant to “me” than broadcasts from a random radio station.

But I’m not sure whether that answered your questions.

[vinceschubert]

What happened was that for a little while, two days ago, thoughts felt just a bit less sticky than usual, a bit less compelling and less “mine.” And I continue to feel, to a lesser degree, like I can more easily let go of them,

I get what you're saying and that gives me an idea of the way things are moving, but I want to know what is the mechanism that happens when you let them go.
Do other thought to arrive to remind you to let them go?
Where does the thought come from From to remind you to relate them to a Radio broadcast?
Is there an opening sensation in the body when they go?
Etc

vince

[whoknows]

but I want to know what is the mechanism that happens when you let them go.
Do other thought to arrive to remind you to let them go?
Where does the thought come from From to remind you to relate them to a Radio broadcast?
Is there an opening sensation in the body when they go?
Etc

I suppose a thought of recognition appears, noticing that the mind was caught up in thought. But, well, that’s what has always happened, especially when intentionally “doing” meditation. What’s a little different now is (maybe something like this?) that the recognition of having been caught up in thought is accompanied not merely by a reminder to return attention to physical sensations but by a thought that amounts to, “Ha! Caught you pretending you’re important!” I.e., there’s more of a cognizance now that thoughts’ pretense of needing attention is bogus.

Where does that thought come from? Beats me. Same "place" other thoughts "come from."

If the thought-entanglement was a construction of suffering, the recognition of thinking is often also accompanied by a recognition of constriction in throat and chest and maybe face. And noticing that constriction is then followed by letting it go. (So that seems worthwhile for the reconditioning of the brain.)

[whoknows]

"let's evaluate this thought for usefulness. "

Trying to sort something out regarding the usefulness of thoughts:

During a sitting period in which the intention is mainly to be with the sensations of the present moment, nearly any thought that arises can be considered useless noise to be immediately let go of. I say “nearly” to leave room for the possibility of a thought arising like, “Oh, shit, forgot to turn off the stove.”

And while going about the activities of K’s everyday life, when the mind is not engaged in the cognition-heavy tasks of teaching and editing, probably the great majority of thoughts that arise can be considered useless noise to be immediately let go of.

Yes?

Where does the thought come from From to remind you to relate them to a Radio broadcast?

I’m guessing that this question was, at least in part, intended to poke at any assumption that there’s a thinker or a “someone” who is “doing” the reminding. If so:

Noticing that the mind was caught up in thoughts just happens when it happens. No decision is made in that moment to notice. (That observation comes from long-time direct experience in meditation.)

And likewise (though the rest of this may not be coming entirely from direct experience but partially from knowing the “correct” answer), the arising of a reminder that thoughts are not important or “mine” just happens if it happens. Even an intention at the beginning of a sitting period, or during it, to remember that thoughts are like random radio broadcasts just arises.

I suppose the noticing of thoughts, the reminders of their unimportance, and the intention to remember their unimportance all happen because the conditions were set up ahead of time to be conducive to these things’ happening (through, e.g., meditation instruction, dialogue with an LU guide, and watching relevant videos). But there’s also not a “someone” who set up those conditions. And so forth, back to the Big Bang or perhaps before.

[whoknows]

A more elaborate version of my radio broadcast story:

A nefarious agency of an authoritarian government wants to keep me from seeing clearly what’s actually going on in reality, so they transmit their programming directly into my brain to distract and upset me. And even worse, they personalize the programming to make it seem like the messages not only pertain specifically to me but also come from my own mind, rather than from outside.

So whenever I catch them at it, I feel like, “Gotcha!” and am even more determined to attend to reality.

(Perhaps I’ve consumed too much dystopian science fiction. :-) )

[whoknows]

Late-night sit:

I got a kick out of the feeling of belligerence and determination that came from imagining that a nefarious power was trying to keep me from taking a good look at reality. I’d notice that thoughts had carried my attention away or were trying to, and I'd feel like, “Goddammit, I won’t let you do this! I'm going to see what you don't want me to see!"

(Not the spirit I always want for meditation, but right now, it felt appropriate.)

[vinceschubert]

If the thought-entanglement was a construction of suffering, the recognition of thinking is often also accompanied by a recognition of constriction in throat and chest and maybe face. And noticing that constriction is then followed by letting it go. (So that seems worthwhile for the reconditioning of the brain.)

Yes — with one important correction.

Noticing constriction is worthwhile.

But “letting it go” can quietly become another doer-project.

So look carefully at the sequence.

Thought-entanglement happens.
Suffering-construction happens.
Recognition of thinking happens.
Constriction in throat/chest/face is noticed.
Then maybe softening happens.

Clean.

But if the mind turns that into:

“I notice constriction so I can let it go and recondition the brain,”

then the fixer is back.

That is not wrong. It is just more selfing.

So I would phrase it like this:

Constriction is noticed. Sometimes softening follows.

That is very different from:

I notice constriction and then I let it go.

The first is accurate. The second may smuggle in a controller.

And yes, this may recondition the brain. But don’t make reconditioning the goal during the moment itself. That can keep the whole thing utilitarian:

“This experience is valuable if it improves me.”

No.

The cleaner attitude:

This contraction is here.
This is it.
Nothing to fix.
Softening may happen, or not.

If softening happens, fine.

If it doesn’t, also fine.

Because the deeper seeing is not “constriction must release.”

It is:

Constriction is happening, and no sufferer inside it is found.

That’s the cut.

But there’s also not a “someone” who set up those conditions. And so forth, back to the Big Bang or perhaps before.

Here's a place where the concept of a Mystery Bag is mind comfort.

During a sitting period in which the intention

Did the noticing of this get a laugh?

Perhaps I’ve consumed too much dystopian science fiction. :-)

Never!

vince