What is real?

[LillaLilla]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self, the construct I believe myself to be is made up of beliefs. Beliefs I've learned about myself and the world around, which are inherently limiting. But what is there if I remove my beliefs, that is the question.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to experience and live what I am without my beliefs. I want to see through my illusions, to see where am I deluding myself. I'm open to embrace life without judgement, and I want to deepen this openness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that I'll be able to see where am I lying to myself, where am in an illusion. I want to free myself of my beliefs and live in a more open state. I'm not expecting to reach a certain state, bliss or happiness.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been on this path for several years now. I started with listening to Adyashanti and focusing on staying present. Focusing on the senses and on emotions stored in the body has been my focus in the recent years, but I must admit, that there used to be an underlying intent to change myself and my experience. These days I'm more open to self enquiry, exploring what is real, what is still and questioning my beliefs.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi LillaLilla
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Dear Rali,

I'm very grateful for you for guiding me through this process. There is a sense of excitement in me right now.
I've read the text on 'what isn't liberation' and I've watched the instructional video about quoting in a reply. My apologies if it's not seamless from the beginning for me. :)

My timezone is GMT+2 (I live in Hungary). I'd be happy to do this process daily. However it's best to admit that some days are very busy for me, and I might come around to do the given task late in the evening only.

With love:
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

My timezone is GMT+2 (I live in Hungary).

I'm also GMT+2 (South Africa). Perfect :)

I'd be happy to do this process daily. However it's best to admit that some days are very busy for me, and I might come around to do the given task late in the evening only.

That’s alright. Life happens. Just let me know if you will take more than 2 days to answer so I know that you haven’t given up and you’ll be back :)

There is a sense of excitement in me right now.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

so here are my answers.

1.What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I think I’ll be less bothered about what happens to the person.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
Experiencing more peace.

3. What do you want not to happen?
I have trust in the process. I hear from teachers that the separate self is affraid of it’s non existence. I’ve had glimpses of the ’isness’, and this fear of death is not particularly strong for me. However I do experience that my mind finds presence boring and wants to pull the attention to something interesting. Boredom might be the equivalent of death for me.

4. What are you hoping for?
I hope that I won’t believe my thoughts anymore.

5. What is missing?
Nothing I guess, yet there is still a sense of waiting for something right now.

Thank you!
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside - approach this with a beginner's mind. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I have trust in the process. I hear from teachers that the separate self is affraid of it’s non existence. I’ve had glimpses of the ’isness’, and this fear of death is not particularly strong for me. However I do experience that my mind finds presence boring and wants to pull the attention to something interesting. Boredom might be the equivalent of death for me.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...
There is nothing real that could die because it NEVER existed in the first place. It’s all an illusion that is seen through – something that looked like something else. Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. Honesty will make this work

Please watch the video again to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers, which will get a lot more complicated ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

approach this with a beginner's mind. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Yes, totally. I can see the benefit of approaching in with complete openness and not knowing.

If you look for the I, what is there?

I askmyself, where am I? My attention goes immediately in my head, then quicklydissolves and I feel the whole body gently pulsating, and I feel an expanded sensationaround the body, mainly around the arms. It’s hard to stay with the sensationfor long, so I ask the same question when my attention diverts. I soon feel apulsation, a sense of opening around the belly and a slight pressure on the throat.A thought comes: „nowhere”. The attention now goes to the upper belly part,just below the rib cages and feel a sense of compression there, and a cryingsensation. That area is very familiar to me as it’s always compressed and whenI look, it’s always the same emotion there. I’m on surface level with theexperience for quite a long time. It takes me quite a bit of time to relax intothe experience, and just observe what appears. Ideas about being in a student-teachersituation in this guiding comes up and old thought patterns about doing it „right”so that I feel accepted by the other person as well. I don’t believe thesethoughts with my conscious mind, yet a part of me does and feels a sense offrustration at having to prove myself to be accepted. I cry a little as I writethese sentences. As I relaxinto observing my experience, a very gentle vibration arises and slowly a vastspaciousness arises in the whole body.  Ican still feel the edges of the body, I don’t dissolve all sense of the body inthis experience. Thoughts still arise in the background. I don’t listen tothem, I don’t even know what they are about, but thoughts still seem personal.I slowly come out of the meditative state and I’m a little puzzled. I wassurprised that I’m both happy about and a little scared of opening up to anotherperson. At least, these triggers came up in the observation. I feel that it'll might take me a little longer to relax into the process and go deep. Yet I’m glad that I have an opportunity now to face beliefs and tendencies about pleasing people.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

After a short break I was ready to inquire into the second part of the task. "No doer" inquiry immediately made me feel like a little kid who has done something bad and in the background I felt the vast spaciousness, that has no qualities. So I had both experiences simultaneously. With "No thinker" I felt my head, and I had a scared grimace on my face. I also felt my lower arms compressing. Vast spaciousness was felt simultaneously. No decision maker gave me a sense of relief and I could feel my heart pumping hard. No witness was interesting, again, I felt my face, and I had a scared expression with the spaciousness in the background. I couldn't take any of the sensations seriously, they were more like indicators. 

With gratitude,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla

Wonderful! Thank you for your honest reply. It gives me an idea where to point. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience.
So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is another example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

However, is 'an apple' actually known?

No, it's just a label. Looking at the photo of an 'apple', there is only colour, and a thought of a past experience. There is no actual apple.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No. When touching or holding an apple, I can only describe an experience of sight, smell, touch, and thought.

Wow, I'm quite surprised at this way of looking. I'm starting to percieve my experience differently.

With gratitude,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla

No. When touching or holding an apple, I can only describe an experience of sight, smell, touch, and thought.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste) in various combinations. Clear?

Wow, I'm quite surprised at this way of looking. I'm starting to percieve my experience differently.

Wonderful! Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

here are some examples of my daily observations:

Observing my DE while sitting on the couch
feeling the pressure where the body and the couch connect and the skin touching the fabric: sensation
seeing the objects in front of me: colours and shapes
hearing the humming of the fridge: sound
thoughts passing: thoughts, thinking( I was surprised by this approach, that thought are merely experience, yet I find it liberating.)

my DE while sitting on the porch
feeling the fabric of my clothes, the pressure against the chair and the sensation of my slippers: sensation
sensing the warmth in the air: sensation
seeing the floor tiles: sight
hearing water splashing: sound
tasting my chewing gum: taste
thought passing: thinking

my DE while washing dishes
feeling running water on my hands and the touch of the sponge: sensation
feeling my feet on the ground: sensation
feeling the cool temperature of the water: sensation
hearing water running: sound
smelling water and dishwasher detergent: smell

My DE while kicking the ball to my son
feeling the pressure of the ball against my foot:sensation
feeling the cool air while running: sensation
hearing the ball touching the ground: sound
seeing the ball: sightthinking about where to aim the ball: thinking

Thank you,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla
Wonderful looking!

My DE while kicking the ball to my son
feeling the pressure of the ball against my foot:sensation
feeling the cool air while running: sensation
hearing the ball touching the ground: sound
seeing the ball: sightthinking about where to aim the ball: thinking

It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Now that you know how to look, let’s investigate “body”

My attention goes immediately in my head, then quicklydissolves and I feel the whole body gently pulsating, and I feel an expanded sensationaround the body, mainly around the arms. It’s hard to stay with the sensationfor long, so I ask the same question when my attention diverts. I soon feel apulsation, a sense of opening around the belly and a slight pressure on the throat.A thought comes: „nowhere”. The attention now goes to the upper belly part,just below the rib cages and feel a sense of compression there, and a cryingsensation.

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It makes the immediate experience melt into sensations that I cannot describe, and I my experience seems more direct, more immediate. Sight experience is shifting, I can sense the so called objects instead of just experiencing them through my mind. I think it might takes practice getting used to this way of perceiving, as I get a sense of irritation after a while. Something becomes uncomfortabe in the experience.

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:

When I hold a cold drink, I can feel a sensation, labelled cold. It is a strong, slightly pulsating sensation, that immediately grabs my attention. With my eyes closed, the sensation doesn't need a label, it's just a sensation different from how the sensation of the body, or the air feels. 

With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?

I can immediately feel my fingers touching the glass, but as time elapses observing the sensation, feeling of coldness widens and labeling it seems irrelevant. It's like I'm not interested in labeling the sensation. 

1.Can it be known how tall the body is?
2.Does the body have a weight or volume?
3.In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
4.Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
5.Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
6.Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
7.What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
8.Can the 'body' do things?

1. No
2. No, it doesn't.
3. No, it doesn't
4. Observing the sensation of body-chair contact, the body has a different feel to it than the chair. But they are just sensations, one is not different from the other.
5. It's not even a body, just a sensation
6. No, there isn't. In actual experience there isn't an inside or an outside.
7. It's just a sensation.
8. It was harder to engage with this question. I found myself going into my imagination, imagining the body doing things. So when I observe the body doing things (with DE), it's just sensations constantly changing.

With gratitude,
Lilla

[poppyseed]

Hi Lilla,
Beautiful.

Something becomes uncomfortable in the experience.

Good. That discomfort is not a problem. It is thought losing its usual reference points. The mind is used to turning raw experiencing into “objects,” “body,” “me,” “inside,” “outside,” “I am perceiving.” When that softens, irritation can arise. Don’t make irritation into a sign that something is wrong.
Instead look directly. When irritation appears, what is it before the label “irritation”?
Do not explain it - close the eyes and feel it.
Where is it?
Is it solid?
Does it have an edge?
Is there someone irritated, or just sensation plus thought saying “I’m irritated”?

7.What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

7. It's just a sensation.

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensations and colours, and labels it a ‘body’, but can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?
So check now… Is there a Lilla inside the body?
Or thoughts saying “Lilla,” “my experience,” “I am observing”?

With my eyes closed, the sensation doesn’t need a label.

Exactly. The label comes after. The label "claims" ownership. The label says “my fingers,” “my body,” “cold drink,” “I am feeling this.” But in the raw contact, what is actually there?
Cold. Pressure. Pulsation. Widening. Changing – all sensations. Where is the owner of that?

I think it might take practice getting used to this way of perceiving.

Careful. That is the seeker sneaking back in. Is this “way of perceiving” something Lilla is doing? Or is perception already happening before the thought “I need practice”?
Look now. Seeing happens. Sensation happens. Thought happens. Discomfort happens. Where is the one managing it?
Look there. That is where the selfing habit is exposed.

the body has a different feel to it than the chair

Now let’s slow down exactly there. Close the eyes and go to the exact contact point.
Before thought names anything “body” or “chair,” what is actually there?
Is there a body-side and a chair-side?
Is there a line where one ends and the other begins?
Can you find two things touching?
Or is there a sensation of pressure, warmth, density, texture, vibration - changing sensation?
The mind may say, “this part is body, that part is chair.” But is that known in sensation itself, or only from memory, image, and label? In the raw contact, can “body” or “chair” be found? Or only sensation, plus a label saying “body on chair”?
Stay with the contact point until “body touching chair” collapses into simply sensation.
Then look again:
Is the sensation owned?
What is observing that - is it happening to Lilla?
Or is “Lilla sitting on a chair” only a thought-story about sensation?
Don’t answer from logic. Put attention directly into the contact point and report what is found.
Love
Rali

[LillaLilla]

Hi Rali,

When irritation appears, what is it before the label “irritation”?
Do not explain it - close the eyes and feel it.
Where is it?

In the belly, hands and feet

Is it solid?

No.

Does it have an edge?

No.

Is there someone irritated, or just sensation plus thought saying “I’m irritated”?

It's just sensation and thought saying I'm irritated.

but can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?

Only thoughts about the body can be found. It's belief in the existence of the body seems to be strong though.

So check now… Is there a Lilla inside the body?

No, there isn't. I put the attention on the body and thoughts came 'I'm here, I'm here', then there was silence and some kind of an impersonal feeling.

Cold. Pressure. Pulsation. Widening. Changing – all sensations. Where is the owner of that?

My honest answer is I don't know. Asking myself who is the owner of the sensation, a thought kept coming up:'me, me me'. I had a few go at this exercise. Thoughts quieted down after a while, and asking the question, the sensation changed. It felt like the sensation was erased and I had a wider, impersonal feel to the sensation. It's hard to describe with words. I felt uneasy as I couldn't clearly say, there is no owner to the sensation. There was just not knowing.

Careful. That is the seeker sneaking back in. Is this “way of perceiving” something Lilla is doing? Or is perception already happening before the thought “I need practice”?

Perception is already happening before the thought.

Look now. Seeing happens. Sensation happens. Thought happens. Discomfort happens. Where is the one managing it?

I thought says it's me, it's me. Then there is a feeling of being a little kid, a sense of feeling small and worried. Then it all goes aways. I cannot find anything. 

Before thought names anything “body” or “chair,” what is actually there?

Just sensation.

Is there a body-side and a chair-side?

No, there isn't. Yet, they feel different.

Is there a line where one ends and the other begins?

No, there isn't

Can you find two things touching?

No.

Or is there a sensation of pressure, warmth, density, texture, vibration - changing sensation?

Yes. When I try to find the two things touching, all I find is changing sensation. 

The mind may say, “this part is body, that part is chair.” But is that known in sensation itself, or only from memory, image, and label? In the raw contact, can “body” or “chair” be found? Or only sensation, plus a label saying “body on chair”?

Only sensation.

Stay with the contact point until “body touching chair” collapses into simply sensation.
Then look again:
Is the sensation owned?

No.

What is observing that - is it happening to Lilla?

When asking what is observing that, I feel a sense of presence.I feel somehow impersonal. Part of me wants to run away from the questions and I'm surprised by it.

Love,
Lilla