Looping patterns of behaviour

[teddycolumbo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
As a searcher of many years I have found a point of nihilism that leads me to irresponsible behaviours (like drinking alcohol and smoking) that then lead to regret which pont to the opposite - that I actually do care.
But then there is no self, so who is the one who cares? I don't know.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to experience the reality of no-self. But I understand in theory that there is no I to experience this. So I don't really understand. It would be great to talk this through and be guided to new perspectives. I have experience but I am open minded to explore my dark spots of ignorance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am missing some steps or clues.
I would like a guide to agitate or inspire me out of this period where I feel stuck. I expect patience, and logic.
Hopefully some nice conversation and empathy. It would be nice to get somebody enthusiastic and consistent.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have completed meditation retreats and read books several years ago.
But now (last 3 or 5 years) I am out of spiritual practice and my focus and patience is low.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

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[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Let's see what we can do. It may take weeks or even months & is completely nonlinear & unpred8ctable.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[teddycolumbo]

Hi Stacy
Appologies for the lateness of my reply.

I am in Melbourne Australia which is Australian Eastern Standard Time - 10 ahead of GMT.

Please call me Mike

How will life change?

I'm hoping to let go of things. Settle down a little. Find contentment in the grander picture.

No me to take so seriously!
If nothing matters, what's the point?

How will you change?

I would like to enjoy the ride of life as it is.
I would like to feel less separate.

What will be different?

Less blindness.
Less automation and unconcious playing along.

What is missing?

I dont know

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mike

Did you have trouble with the site? Is been down some this past couple of weeks. They're working on it.

Those are reasonable answers.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[teddycolumbo]

Hi Stacy
Trouble with site? - yes, i am not getting an email to notify of a reply.

I'm also finding it difficult to find the chat on my phone, but i have this screen on my lapop open, and i just click refresh to check.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

I'm bewildered.
Everything I've fought against my whole life, my upbringing, my need to be acknowledged, my need to be important, my need to have a big house. It's all external conditioning. But it still hurts.

And where is all this false self stored? Where is this program being run?
Not only am i trying to impress others that will never know or care, i am trying to fulfill needs for my self that doesn't exist. Sounds pretty silly.

But I dont know what is left when all this manufactured self dissappears.

Is there a good technique for systematically removing aspects of self?

Thanks
Mike

[Anastacia42]

"Self" has never existed, so there's nothing to remove.

"Self" is a lie tension Sensation plus a label & stories.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving

[teddycolumbo]

I tell myself the lie

It's negative self talk around me being useless or a failure.

I feel a sinking ripple of flat energy down my throat and it sinks into my middle and then down into my gut, Thenn it stays there.
I notice a tingling around my head. A confusion without thought. A bit of brain cloud with a tingle.

I try a simple a simple lie about Adolph Hitler being in the room.

Straight away, a similar sennsation at the back of my throat, but doesn't go down so much.
There is a slight tightening of mu solar plexus area.

[Anastacia42]

Okay. good. .Mike. Keep that awareness of whether you feel contraction or expansion as we continue.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[teddycolumbo]

I think that is all very clear - thank you very much Stacy.

I might need reminding of it in the future, but for now that is a healthy way to navigate my compass!

[Anastacia42]

Good! Here is a pointer to practice.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[teddycolumbo]

I wwilll try this tomorrow and report back


thanks
Mike

[teddycolumbo]

Hearing the aircon - sound
seeing a bottle - light and colour
Noticing sensations in the body
Building images in my head based on sensations - thought
Tingling lips - sensation
vibration and agitation in gut - sensation
moving eyballs from side to side - sensation with colour and shpae changes
air on skin - sensation
scene in the bedroom - i see shapes but really light and colour
tasting food - sensation
getting thirsty - sensation
toughts about this exercise - thought

Realistion that everything is layered in concepts, thought, and narrative - thought

[Anastacia42]

Good.

Here's the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? They are there. Look for them.

[teddycolumbo]

"I"
I am lying back on the bedI am typing on my laptopI am scratching my nosei feel sensations in the back of my kneesI hear bird sounds i hear a distant planei hear layers of bird soundsi notice the silence in between noisesi hear my dog shuffling on the floori feel sensations in my stomachi feel sensations in my right toesi move my tongue inside in my mouthi drawing breath through my nosei find it difficult to define a smellI define the breath sensation as cool and clearI feel small vibrations inside my head

Without "I"
bird noises are happeningtyping on keyboard sensations in toes slight ringing in earspulling sensation in right arm breathing happening swallowing action silence, animal noises fresh air degrees of light and shade silence breathing bird noises blinking

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I'm not sure if one is truer than the other. The second way felt more connected. More calmer. 

2. What is here without labels?

More everything, less story. More noticingIt's weird, without the 'I', there seems to be another noticer. 

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels build a narrative in the head..- A picture  and map
Its hard to ignore the labels. e.g. the distant plane. I ignore the label, but then thoughts jump up, how can you be certain it's a plane, maybe its simply a noise and we are in a simulation. 
Without labels, am i just acting dumb? If there was a scream, and i didn't give it a label, i may not act upon which would not be wise?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? They are there. Look for them.

calmer
Feels like More of an observer
Thoughts leap up. "Hey this is what being spiriiiiiiitual is!" 

[Anastacia42]

Hi.

First. the example is a list. not a paragraph . That was very hard to read.

1. Calmer, relaxed means truer. We'll do a pointer for that.

2. Direct Experience

3. You didn't really answer the question. Labels don't affect experience. We'll do a pointer for that. too.

4. Good.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,