gibraltar liberation

[graceabounds]

The body was noticeably calmer without the labels but that may just have been because I had been sitting for 10 minutes by then

Notice the thought to discount what was directly experienced. :)

Actually I can’t really control focus, I can try to maintain awareness on something but that doesn’t work for long, I feel like it works for a little while, more than it used it but soon enough attention is swept away and it comes back when it wants.

Great.

Is it a failing in any way that ‘I’ can’t control focus? Can you find the one who tries?

What is it that notices attention moves by itself?

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[Sukie]

Is it a failing in any way that ‘I’ can’t control focus? Can you find the one who tries?


I suppose it is a failure as I’m trying to do it, but I can’t find who is trying to do it, only thoughts about me, but ‘I’ in some sense am there, otherwise what is aware that any of this is happening? What is trying to maintain focus, it seems to have no substance but its aware and following instructions. All features of ‘I’ are thoughts but an awareness, that understands and corresponds, is still here typing. I can’t define ‘I’, beyond it is aware, it responds, follows instructions but is void of any features, all else is thoughts. Its as if I am stripped down to bare features of acting or witnessing but am still here in that minimal capacity.


What is it that notices attention moves by itself?
It’s not noticed til after the fact usually, but now I can sense thoughts arising and gathering weight and getting close and sometimes can head them off and maintain focus…if there is no me then who/what does this??????


1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.


Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?


The body is following the instruction and when the hand has been seen, the body turns the hand, no thought required.


How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.


The body does this, as instructed, thought questioned the timing and stopped the body turning the hand but only momentarily, body would happily comply with the instruction, turning the hand when it had been seen


Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?


The body presented the right hand
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
As explained, it seems to me that the body is just doing as instructed by you

[graceabounds]

Good exploration here.

Does the body require instruction to walk down the street, or cook dinner?

Seeing is happening
Sensations are happening
Thoughts are happening
Movement is happening

Now look carefully: Is there a separate thing inside those events that is “doing” them?

sometimes can head them off and maintain focus…if there is no me then who/what does this??????

Look closer.

Did a controller appear before attention stabilized?
Or did stabilization simply happen, followed by a thought saying “I did that”?

Check the sequence carefully.

‘I’ in some sense am there, otherwise what is aware that any of this is happening?

Is there:
Seeing and a seer?
Or just seeing?
Knowing and a knower?
Or just knowing?

Can you find the boundary where experience ends and an experiencer begins?


Oh, also here is a 2 minute tutorial on how to use the quote function on the forum:

https://youtu.be/QCbZYSvnTpc?si=QhhjyrJVu-KonBYp

[Sukie]

Hi, I want to let you know that I am working on the tasks set but I am getting ready to travel to India for a month so I may not respond til March, I will have no wifi there.

I am really committed to our work together and very grateful for your help.

I will speak to you in March

Thank you for helping me

Susan

[graceabounds]

Thanks for letting me know.
Have a lovely trip and post again when ready to resume here.

[Sukie]

Does the body require instruction to walk down the street, or cook dinner?

This body can drive the car without my conscious involvement 🙂

Seeing is happening
Sensations are happening
Thoughts are happening
Movement is happening

No, these things happen spontaneously and the mind catches up later

Did a controller appear before attention stabilized?
Or did stabilization simply happen, followed by a thought saying “I did that”?

Check the sequence carefully.

Maybe there is an intention to refocus the mind but it happens before the thought can be formed, maybe it is the pre-existing instruction, like the instruction to move the hand. The thought is definitely after the event but refocussing is what I want to do and that intention seems to have some agency, it doesn’t feel like coincidence that the mind refocussed.

Can you find the boundary where experience ends and an experiencer begins?

I read your instructions and my intention focusses my eyes on something to look at. Thought comes later, if at all. What I am looking at seems to reach all the way to my head, around it, be the same thing as my body, my attention. There is some agency, intention, prior to thought otherwise I could not follow your instructions.

When I look for the experiencer, the subject and the object merge but awareness is still aware of what is happening, intention still functions.

Movement is happening

Yes, often, the body just does what it needs to, but there is an intention to direct it at other times. When I look for the owner of that intention the mind reasons that there must be an agent because without some agency, the body would behave like an animal, purely driven by instinct.

[graceabounds]

Slow down. Don’t conclude yet. Stay with the actual sequence...

There is some agency, intention, prior to thought otherwise I could not follow your instructions.

Good. Now check this much more carefully.
1. Rest your hands.
2. In a moment, lift one finger.
3. Watch the exact moment the movement begins.

Look extremely closely. Before the finger moves, do you see an agent? Or do you see an intention appearing?
Because intention appearing is not the same thing as a controller producing it.

So check: Did you create the intention? Or did the intention simply arise, the same way a sound arises or a thought arises?

Refocussing is what I want to do

Where did that want come from?
Did you choose the want? Or did the want show up, and action followed?


Now look at your reasoning here:

without some agency, the body would behave like an animal, purely driven by instinct.

Right now, breathing is happening. Heart beating. Thoughts appearing. Attention shifting...
Which of those are you controlling? Did you decide the next thought? Or did it arrive by itself?

You are noticing that thought comes after action. But the mind quickly inserts a subtle new controller called “intention.”
So investigate intention itself.
Can an owner of intention be found? Or is there simply intention appearing, just like thoughts appear?

When I look for the experiencer, the subject and the object merge

Excellent, stay there. When subject and object merge where exactly would the experiencer stand?
Point to the location. Is there anything there besides the experience itself?

[Sukie]

So, the intention arose in response to your instruction, first I lifted the index finger and no movement in the mind was perceivable, then I thought about which finger to use, I changed which finger and the mind was involved in some minimal way in that. I used several, there was no movement in the mind before the lifting, like the exact time of the lifting had been left to the body.

When the mind was involved in the choice of finger, the 'thoughts' didn't have any words, they arose from an underlying habit of mind to be curious. So fast though that the idea to change fingers and the choice of a different finger all happened at the same time without words and without my conscious input. So yes, this intention just happened.

Mind in some way is like the body, it has neuronal patterns, which show up as habits and tendencies, these influence my responses, or maybe these neuronal patterns produce my responses. It is a neuronal pattern of behaviour that feels like intention. Is the act of complying with your requests a neuronal habit that I witness and can interfere with if i want.

Where did that want come from?
Did you choose the want? Or did the want show up, and action followed?

It seems like the brain is going about doing stuff, with tendencies and preferences, shaped by previous input, that feel like decisions, it all works without me if I let it, eyes see, ears hear, all input goes to brain, which processes, makes decisions and directs the body and I have just mistaken this for conscious action.

[graceabounds]

Yes it it good to see that there is no one deciding or doing or choosing...
AND
Is the brain and neuronal processes ultimately knowable?? Can it be experienced or only thought about?

And what do you mean it works without you "if I let it"?

[Sukie]

Is the brain and neuronal processes ultimately knowable??

I can think about it....I can experience it....not the neurons, but their effects in my brain...an urge to do one thing or another
When I observed 'intention' I realised that it was just neurons behaving in habitual ways, it feels like preferences, tendencies of my personality but on inspection, its automatic, not conscious, programmed, habitual.

And what do you mean it works without you "if I let it"?

If i don't interfere with the automatic behaviour by deciding to do something different, say, when you asked me to lift a finger and the body complied, I could have interfered with that automatic response and not lifted the finger

[Sukie]

Actually, everything I think and do and experience is just neurons processing input + experience (memory) and producing output. The decision not to raise the finger is an alternative output available to the brain it does not require a ME to do any of it, I just witness it passing through the mind or body

[graceabounds]

You’re replacing “me” with “neurons.” That’s still a story.

when you asked me to lift a finger and the body complied, I could have interfered with that automatic response and not lifted the finger

Slow this down. Next time a movement happens like lifting a finger or shifting posture or getting up from a chair... watch precisely.

At what exact point does the “option to interfere” appear?
Does it come before the impulse?
...During?
...After?

Or is that “I could have done otherwise” just another thought arriving after the fact?

Look, don’t answer from memory.

Right now, in immediate experience is there anything that is doing the thinking,
or only thoughts appearing?

Is “witness” just another layer of commentary?

Not interested in theory, only what is seen directly...

[Sukie]

At what exact point does the “option to interfere” appear?

Only if I am aware of the urge to move and dont respond right away, then I have the option to interfere. Otherwise movement happens without conscious direction all the time

Right now, in immediate experience is there anything that is doing the thinking,
or only thoughts appearing?

No-one is thinking, thoughts just appear.

Witness is that feeling of 'me' being aware of thoughts arising

[graceabounds]

Witness is that feeling of 'me' being aware of thoughts arising

What is this FEELING of me? Break it down... what are its components? How is it known?

Only if I am aware of the urge to move and dont respond right away, then I have the option to interfere.

Slow that down ruthlessly. Next time an urge arises, watch this sequence:
1. Urge appears
2. Awareness of urge
3. Thought: “I can interfere”
4. Action or no action

Now look carefully:
Did you choose to become aware of the urge?
Or did awareness of it just… appear?

Did you create that option to interfere? Or did it show up just like the urge did?

Where is the one who decides?
Not in theory!! Locate it.

[Sukie]

Did you choose to become aware of the urge?
Or did awareness of it just… appear?

The urge just appeared

What is this FEELING of me? Break it down... what are its components? How is it known?

It starts with a pleasant feeling of safety, comfort, then that subsides and there is space and maybe waiting or anticipation, a tiny dip in mood, any feeling is a thought. It becomes to difficult to stabilise attention