Only this

[Baremind255]

Hi dear Elad,

Thank you very much for checking on me.
I previously had written a reply to the questions and during the preview, I must have made a mistake by clicking on the wrong button. By trying to make corrections and then trying to preview those corrections again, I lost everything in the midst of doing that.
All my answers were gone.
I will reply to the questions asap.
Thank you again for your patience and for checking on me.

[Elad]

🤍

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
Here are the answers to the questions:

As for "what makes things work", could any answer be more then a story?

Yes, this is obvious, something is perceived and the mind creates stories about it or claims ownership.

In direct experience, does reality/the mystery explain itself?

No. It is just itself as it is and nothing that the mind describes about it changes or modifies it in any shape or form.

How is the movement controlled?

The movement is not controlled by anyone. However, the mind comes in almost instantaneously and claims that it's the me that is doing it.

Does a thought control it?

It seems as such, but when it is observed closely, it is happening by itself.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

The mind wants to state that the "me" is the controller of the movement, but when I repeated the movement continuously, without adding a thought, it became clear that it happens by itself.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

It can't be explained; there is no decision maker, only the mind claims that there is.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It just happened spontaneously, no one was actually making a conscious decision, which hand to choose.

This was the answers to the first set of questions. I'll be answering the rest later after I am done with work.
I will submit these now, because I don't want to loose the answers again like last time.

[Baremind255]

Response to the remaining questions:

Can you find anywhere where Kathy autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No. It's interesting how the mind puts continuity together, when there truly isn't. Like the water that is influenced by the weather moment by moment, so it is here, ever-changing, unknowable and mysterious.
The mind is telling the story of a chooser, an actor of a decision maker, which isn't true.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

It's so strange that the feeling is so strong that in fact there is a me that is a decision maker, but when looked closely, it becomes clear that based on all the circumstances and factors present a decision is being made of what to wear or what to eat....etc.

Can anything be found for which Kathy is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

I am thinking that I am responsible to keep my environment clean for example,but cleaning just happens or it doesn't.
I am writing this, but the feeling of being the one responsible is still very strong, but then isn't that just a thought either? What does feeling responsible even mean? Is there a feeling in the body that is called " responsible"?
No.

Finally, as for the story that "mind can't tolerate being in direct experience", can this mind that cannot tolerate direct experience be found? Or is that just another story, another thought?

Yes, there is really no room for exception. Anything that goes against direct experience here and now is a thought that says otherwise. It's just a story.
The more I look into this, the more there is the notion that there is no conclusion to be made about anything.
There is no holding or landing anywhere, a particular way that this is. However, this re- identification is constantly happening or the wanting to run away from the here and now, but again even that is made up.

[Elad]

Hey Kathy, good, getting clearer!

Lets continue:

It's so strange that the feeling is so strong that in fact there is a me that is a decision maker,

For the next day or days just be curious about this strong feeling of a decision maker. When does it come up? How exactly is it experienced?

Important: Don't try to make it go away! Quite the opposite, the more it experienced clearly, the better opportunity to see it for what it is. Do this in a relaxed spirit, don't try hard, don't try to make anything different. Just observe whenever you get the chance, what this "strong sense of the decision maker" is.

the feeling of being the one responsible is still very strong

Do the same with this, as with the feeling of being the decision maker. Maybe it is the same feeling? Just be glad whenever it is there in a clear strong way, and in a relaxed spirit, without trying to change it, pay attention to what it is, its nature as a phenomenon.


Write me your experience, what is seen.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

For the next day or days just be curious about this strong feeling of a decision maker. When does it come up? How exactly is it experienced?

What I have noticed is that in the moment the feeling of being a decision maker doesn't come up as frequently.
The body gets up, teeth get brushed, breakfast is made....etc.
The feeling is much stronger when thoughts reflect a future and they say that this "me" needs to make a decision about something.
To give a concrete example, the opportunity has come up for me to move and the feeling of being the decision maker of this matter is very uncomfortable.
It just drags me into analysis paralysis, a position that's uncomfortable and I feel resistance to be in it.

Do the same with this, as with the feeling of being the decision maker. Maybe it is the same feeling? Just be glad whenever it is there in a clear strong way, and in a relaxed spirit, without trying to change it, pay attention to what it is, its nature as a phenomenon.

I think both of these feelings are very similar in that notion that there is a me that's responsible, which needs to take action and it then will either suffer or benefit from that action or decision.
In the body, it feels like unease, not relaxed as if something is pushing against something else.

[Elad]

Great observations, especially that the "sense of decisionmaker" is in fantasy/thought about future, where nothing actually happens. Whereas with whatnaxtually gets done/unfolds, the sense of decisionmaker is not there, it is seen as just unfolding. Did I get that right, what you described?

Look at "future". Can it be found as anything else then fanrasy and anticipatory thought?

[Baremind255]

Dear Elad,

For a change you are receiving a response from me right away.
Yes, you put it perfectly in words what I was trying to say.
I am just coming from a five day online retreat and what I have learned is that the trap is truly buying into thoughts.
When the mind leaves the present moment and goes into lala land fabricating stories pretending to be me, that's when everything gets entangled and complicated.
The present moment is simple, just this, whatever is arising, already here.
This cannot be compared with anything as comparison means that there is a belief of a non-existent past that is held as true.
Unfortunately, this has become so habitual that it happens again over and over, but I realize that even this statement is not true.

[Elad]

Lots of clarity here.

So what are the reactions now to:

"There is no separate self, no doer, no controller, no decider, no responsible one, never has been, never will be"

Just stay with this sentence for a while repeat it pay attention to whatever happens and report!

And is there someone the reactions are chosen by, controlled by, or that they refer to?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

Just stay with this sentence for a while repeat it pay attention to whatever happens and report!

This is clear when I am still and focused on inquiry, but in every day life there is not this understanding continously present that, oh this is just a reaction or a contraction in the body happening.
There is still relating what's happening to a "me."
The intervals that when "selfing" happens, it's realized as such, are getting smaller, but it's still there.
I am also struggling to understand what is causing the belief in a "me" thought again after clearly seeing that it's all just based on thoughts arising.
Yes, and as I am writing this, there is the notion that who is the one struggling to understand, but this is mostly only clear in my communication with you and not all the time.

[Elad]

Hi Kathy,

This is clear when I am still and focused on inquiry, but in every day life there is not this understanding continously present that, oh this is just a reaction or a contraction in the body happening.
There is still relating what's happening to a "me."

Don't try to get rid of the relating. Thinking in terms of me and you, they and us, etc. is part of normal human functioning, just like thinking of here and there. Just look: Is it clear that this is also an automatic function of nature, happening on its own? Look for this over the next day or so, let me know.

The intervals that when "selfing" happens, it's realized as such, are getting smaller, but it's still there.

Don't look for a reduction in selfing as the goal. Just look for clarity about if there is a solid enduring self in any of it (i.e. the exploration I wrote just before this).

I am also struggling to understand what is causing the belief in a "me" thought again after clearly seeing that it's all just based on thoughts arising.

Do we need to understand the mechanics of this conditoning? Or just to see clearly that it is conditioning?

Is there a self to get this forever - or just what is happening now?

[Baremind255]

Dear Elad,
Today I went back and read all our conversations again from the beginning.
I recognize a repeating pattern of clear seeing in the moment and the expectation that this should be a constant recognition.
Again, this is recognized as just thoughts arising, even the expectation is just a thought.
The mind is trying to land somewhere, when it wants to understand why this is constantly happening. You asked me if we need to understand the mechanics of why the conditioning is happening or just recognize that it is happening and the answer is yes, the recognition of it is enough.
Lately, I have been more able to recognize thoughts as just an experience, regardless of what they are saying.
They seem to loose their grip on the make believe that what they are saying is a true reference to a non- existing separate self.
They just arise and fall by themselves, so random, jumping from one thing to another.
It reminds me of when you said our heart is beating, our lungs are breathing and the mind is thinking.
This is just what's happening all by itself.

[Elad]

Dear Kathy,

Yes!! That's it.

Now please look is there anything at all that is still believed ti be the self? The body? A place in the body? The thinker? The experiencer? The chooser? The one responsible?

Just check if anything is still experienced as the self - and there is, check what is actually there, is there any self there at all for real?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
In sharing my process below, I think I will be answering some of your questions you posed to me.
Lately, I have been practicing self inquiry. The questions arise organically and asking" Who am I " has never really worked for me.
Lately, I have been inquiring about boundaries between what we call the body and the environment.
Looking closely, there are only sensations that the mind labels foot on the floor for example.
In experience that doesn't exist. When I go into the body sense, I recognize that when a sensation arises there is body mapping going on and that is also a thought, but very subtle.
I have also asked myself what indicates that these felt sensations I call the body are different from what I call the space in the room, which means are the sensations themselves indicating that there is actually a body and that this body is me?
I can't really say that without referencing thoughts.
I am not sure, if I am not fooling myself, it's so strange.
Is there actually even a noticer or is the sensation itself the noticing of it appearing otherwise it wouldn't be there.
The problem is that every time clarity arises, doubt comes in right after.

[Elad]

Is there actually even a noticer or is the sensation itself the noticing of it appearing otherwise it wouldn't be there

.



Right look at that! Can any noticer/experiencer/aware one separate from experience, sensation, sight, sound, etc be found? Or there is just "experience/what is, without subject/object"?

The problem is that every time clarity arises, doubt comes in right after.

Notice that this perspective is not coming from what is directly experienced. It is coming from "thinking about" you. Awakening never is or happens through "thinking about", only attending to what is actually there and what is not. So recommanding to stay focused on that as much as possible. See what happens.