Only this

[Baremind255]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that who I take myself to be is not real. I am not a separate entity with a past and a future.
I am not any of the things that my thoughts tell me I am.

What are you looking for at LU?
Eventhough, it makes total sense to me that there is no such thing as a separate self and I have had glimpses of it, I haven't had a true shift in identity yet.
In experience, I still feel that there is center here from which I perceive.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping that the guide can help me to recognize where I am stuck, where subconscious believes are holding me back.
I also think the fact that there will be an exchange with the guide on regular basis, can be extremely helpful in keeping this process in focus.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on the spiritual path for many years, but I have learned about nonduality fairly recently.
I meditate and have recently started the process of self inquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Elad]

Hello! I am a guide here at LU. I'd be happy to work with you. Are you ready to start? What may I call you?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
My apologies. I had difficulties figuring out how all this works.
I replied to the email I received and I thought it would go directly to you, but it went to the admin inbox.
I truly appreciate your time and I am eager to work with you.
You can call me Kathy.
Please let me know how this works.
Will we be communicating with each other here in the thread or will this be on zoom?
Thank you very much,
Kathy

[Elad]

Hey Kathy, great to hear from you! The process is normally here on the thread where we write each other - so let's start there, and see how things move. The questions I particularly invite you to contemplate will be in blue. Here is a link to a short video on how to use the "quote function" on this forum. Using it will make it easier for us to converse here. Please watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=14s

Apart from this I invite you to leave aside other videos and reading materials about non-duality and such, while we do this work together. It will keep the process focused.

Eventhough, it makes total sense to me that there is no such thing as a separate self and I have had glimpses of it, I haven't had a true shift in identity yet.
In experience, I still feel that there is center here from which I perceive.

1) How do you expect to recognize a shift in identity?
2)n your direct experience, how exactly do you experience a center from which you perceive?
3)And what is this "you" that perceive inside this center?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
Thank you very much for your time and the questions.

How do you expect to recognize a shift in identity?

I don't think l will know this conceptually, but rather it will be an undeniable knowing that doesn't need confirmation from the outside.

In your direct experience, how exactly do you experience a center from which you perceive?

There are sensations that I feel mostly around my head, which feel more distinct and like a center where I'm perceiving from.

And what is this "you" that perceive inside this center?

That is a very interesting question, because that "I" are these feelings and sensations that my mind is calling "I".
What I am saying now, might sound contradictory, but when my mind is silent, there is" nothing ", not even a sensation, because that is already an interpretation of just what is here.

[Elad]

Hey Kathy!

How do you expect to recognize a shift in identity?

I don't think l will know this conceptually, but rather it will be an undeniable knowing that doesn't need confirmation from the outside.

Okay, this is a tricky one. I would like to recommend you even to let go in this belief, that it will be self evident. Not because I am saying it won't. But because this is still a BELIEF for you.

Are you willing to let go of it while we work and focus ONLY on what you actually find?

And now, where do you find identity in direct experience?

In your direct experience, how exactly do you experience a center from which you perceive?

There are sensations that I feel mostly around my head, which feel more distinct and like a center where I'm perceiving from.

These sensations that you call you, is there anything about them that says they are you? Do they say they are you? Or are they just what they are, plus the belief "these are me, OR these are mine"?

And what is this "you" that perceive inside this center?

That is a very interesting question, because that "I" are these feelings and sensations that my mind is calling "I".
What I am saying now, might sound contradictory, but when my mind is silent, there is" nothing ", not even a sensation, because that is already an interpretation of just what is here.

Yes, this is clear. Now for the next day try to notice when the sense of "this is me, this is mine" comes up more or less in different moments. When it comes up, LOOK, what can actually be fund to be there? Is there any self outside of what is happening? Look many times, tell me what you experience and discover.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
Thank you again for your time and for working with me.

Are you willing to let go of it while we work and focus ONLY on what you actually find?

Yes, I am. It's true that this is still a belief for me, because it is based on something I previously learned.

And now, where do you find identity in direct experience?

When I look at something, for example at a tree outside the window, there subconsciously is a notion that there is a me looking at a tree. Something is here looking at something out there, that's how it feels.

what can actually be fund to be there? Is there any self outside of what is happening?

In experience there is only what's happening.
When I fill up my water kettle in the morning, in true experience, there is only hand, kettle, water, there is no I, but even the sensation of a hand touching the kettle is my mind labeling just this isness that's here.
I am confused though, what is causing me to constantly buy into the belief that there is a me?!

[Elad]

So waking up is not about not having a sense of self, if you did not have that, you could not function like a normal person. You would know who is spoken about when someone called your name. And a million other things. The sense of self function is just part of life. What this is about, is seeing that ultimately even the "sense of self" is just a spontaneous emergence, an aspect of the mystery this is.

Here are a couple of contemplations to look at this from a particular angle...

Try this exercise:

Write out a sequence of numbers, something like this:

15, 32, 45, 1, 4, 9, 3455, 12.....

With each new number added to the sequence LOOK, where did the number come from? If some logical sequence starts to happen, say 2, 4, 6, 8......., or something else, where exactly did this sequence come from?

Do this exercise several time and report what you see. 

And this one:

During the next day or couple of days, take at least 3 periods of between 5 and 25 min. Sit facing a wall, eyes open softly, until your timer rings. While sitting pay attention to every movement and thought that happens, looking: What is choosing, controlling and creating the movements, thoughts and feelings that come and go?

Let me know what you experience.

[Elad]

You would not know who is spoken about when someone called your name.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

where exactly did this sequence come from?

Do this exercise several time and report what you see.

When I was doing the exercise, it was clear that the numbers arose by themselves, completely independent from one another. I even noticed a few times that the number I had in my head to write down next on the paper, wasn't the one that appeared on the paper.
It felt so weird, because I couldn't understand why I wrote some other number and not the one I thought about.

What is choosing, controlling and creating the movements, thoughts and feelings that come and go?

I found no answer for this one. Outside of thought, there was no chooser or controller.
When movement was happening , my mind was saying that I am the one doing that, but then I recognized that this is just a thought saying this and outside of that there was no "I" doing the movement.
I can't even say that there were feelings or movements without referencing thoughts that labeled them as such.

[Elad]

Good, clear stuff here...

So how is the illusion/experience of "the I" created?

Don't think about the answer, LOOK. And remember the key thing here is never what is written, it is what is SEEN.

Here is another exercise to support you:


“I” labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety), that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know what happens, what is noticed.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
I took a little bit more time for these exercises.
[So how is the illusion/experience of "the I" created?]
I am not sure about this, but experimentally, it feels like every time there is a thought that I believe in or identify with, a sense of self is created.

Let me know what happens, what is noticed.

There was an equal amount of self and other thoughts, actually even a few more other than self thoughts.
There was a lot of thinking about other people, people in my life or people who I follow online and consider awake.
It's not even necessarily a judgment of them, but it's more like I wonder how they experience ...xyz.
I just noticed how easily distracted I can get from this here and now.
I contemplated on one of the "I" thoughts. For example I am hungry is just an experience of hunger, of some sensation or cramping in the stomach area.
If I remove all these words, it just comes down to a sensation, yet it feels like I'm the noticer of that hunger/ sensation.
What's the difference between saying hunger is being experienced or I am hungry.
The realty of that experience isn't changed by using different semantics.
I realize I am getting more confused, when I rely on words and creating concepts.
What's actually happening is just what is, not what the words are trying to convey.

[Elad]

I realize I am getting more confused, when I rely on words and creating concepts.
What's actually happening is just what is, not what the words are trying to convey.

Yes. Now just take in what is already seen, quite simple. What is is just what is. No one standing outside of it, looking, deciding, controlling. Looking, deciding and controlling happens, as part of what is. And the ideas and expectations that seeing this should be something else also just happens. See how it all just happens without anyone outside of it to control it. Very simple.


Here is another exercise to support the same clarity:




Mind labelling experience


Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:


1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels create what is there prior to being described, or just describe it with more or less simplicity and objecitivty?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[Elad]

Ps. It's not about how it "feels". When you say it "feels like there is I" all what is said is that "the thought is happening and being taken to be true". Now where we get caught is thinking this needs to change. It doesn't. Just see that also that just happens by itself without anyone outside of it having a choice over the beliefs and feelings. We are not here to change your beliefs and feelings. Just to see that they are actually no evidence of self, but just another pattern playing itself out. Here is how it goes:

Focusing on "how it feels for you", "what changes or not", etc. = focusing on the story.

This is just self-perpetuating.

Focusing on what is actually there and happens, including how the illusion actually unfolds in real time, being more interested in the truth, rather then "how it feels to me" = the way to clarity.

We are not looking to make anything different or go away. Just to see how it already is.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,
Thank you very much for your time and the exercise you gave.

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

None of them were more true than the other. In fact it was seen that actually both versions were kind of not true.
They could not reveal the actual thing that was happening.

What is here without labels?

There is only this thing that can't be described, a sensation, a seeing, a hearing, a feeling...etc.

Do labels create what is there prior to being described, or just describe it with more or less simplicity and objecitivty?

The labels are trying to describe what is already here, but was very clear how different the actual thing that is happening is, from the label that is trying to describe it.
Everything was already happening as it was and the labels couldn't add or subtract from that.

Did you notice any differences in the body?

That was very subtle, but the first group of descriptions with the "I " thought felt more like some center here that these things were happening to or this body was doing.
The second part of the exercise, just using verbs felt more open and neutral, happenings just happening, not for or to some entity that is at the center of everything.
Wow!!! This was really eye-opening!

Also Elad, I liked what you stated under P.S.
I always thought that I need to get rid of my beliefs or try to dissolve them.
I want to make sure that I understand correctly what you said.
So the goal is not to change a belief, but to recognize or to see that it is appearing in a given moment just like everything else and it doesn't have anything to do with me?
But isn't that the problem to begin with? The word itself already means that there is identification with it, otherwise it is not a belief .
If I can see this clearly, it is not a belief anymore.
The fact that I am identified with a point of view makes it a belief, doesn't it?
I don't know, I am confused again.
Thank you very much for your time and patience.