Intrigued soul

[Elad]

Hello, welcome back! Yes I am up for it. And sounds good the way you suggest :)

[EYG]

Hi,

It's interesting seeing my responses from not a while ago.

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

I want to think that I'm controlling the overall flow. The notion of the life stream brings me discomfort and relaxation together. Both the ideas of there is no self and the idea of there is nothing but myself, both rise ambivalently feelings. I see the love and fear in both.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

I see someone there. mainly in the negative decisions. When I eat unhealthy or dress like a slob or when the house isn't tidy, is due to my laziness, my lack of planning, my negative thinking/doing.
On the hand, when I act on things, I conceive as positive, it feels more "natural and flowing". Spending time with kids, being a good partner to my wife, caring for my family, maintaining health, and exercising.

3. Can anything be found for which 'Elad' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

I feel responsible for things I regard as negative. The positive in my life I contribute to others doing.

I pasted parts of this discussion into a language model (Gemini), I needed to dumb down part of the writing I didn't understand, and I usually use it to fix my grammar (I didn't use his suggestions because I felt that the grammar and sentence flow were conveying a feeling). The perspective and discussion the model raised were interesting. I'll paste below the a response I think is interesting to share written by the model.

A Thought Experiment for You
If we look at your "laziness" or "messiness"—the things you claim as your own autonomous intervention—could those also be part of the "flow"?

Imagine a river. Sometimes the water is clear and fast (your "positive" flow). Sometimes the water gets stuck in a muddy pool and turns stagnant (your "laziness"). The stagnant pool isn't "intervening" in the river; it is just what happens to water when it hits a certain dip in the land.

Do you think you judge yourself more harshly than you would judge a river? If you saw a "lazy" river, would you blame the water, or would you look at the terrain that caused it to slow down?

Elad

[Elad]

Hey Elad

Gemini answered you well. You attributing failures to you and good things to others, is just psychological habits, and also they are not chosen by you, are not in your control. And yet it can change, in its own time, just by being seen, like a river can change with changing conditions.

Now look closer can you actually control anything at all? If thoughts and movements all happen spontaneously, how can anything be said to be in your control?

Try these exercises:

1. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

2. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

3. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

4. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?


With each one, it is not about thinking the right answer, this is not about thinking just about seeing. It is about using attention on what is actually happening here and now.

[EYG]

I understand the exercise, and I can accept the perspective that I am seeing life instead of navigating it (though not without resentment), but it throws me into a loop. I seek self-improvement. I seek to worry less, love more, and feel great in every possible aspect by doing so.

The notion that I am a spectator of life and not the actor means that walking this path is not controllable and is not a function of effort. As a spectator, I should just 'wait and see' and accept whatever I encounter. That is a hard thought for me. If I am just a spectator, why should I bother trying?"

[Elad]

This is not about "understanding" the exercise. Did you actually DO them, or just think about it?

"Understanding" this doesn't make any difference, just more intellectual stuff. Only direct experience matters here.

And you are not a "spectator", where is this "I" that would be a spectator?

If you are looking at the activity of "spectating" or "experiencing", is there an "I" that does that, or does experiencing happen by itself, without a spectator?

If you imagine there is a spectator, that is you, where exactly is it located?


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Here is the thing: You are still relating to all this through thinking about it, and thinking about if it is an attractive belief for you. This process is deeper and is not about that. This process is about getting interested in reality itself on a level more fundamental than your thoughts and feelings about it.

Believing in no self and no agency truly can be as bad or worse than believing in self and full agency. Both can be bad or good, depending on personal dispositions. This process if you seriously get into it is not about beliefs, not belief in full agency, not belief in no agency, not belief in something in between. You cannot get it with the intellect.

It is not the path for everyone. Look if you really want to find out the truth about "is there a self at all in any shape or form", if you want to go more fundamental than any thoughts and beliefs.

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As for "what is the point", (1) can you see the self-centeredness in the idea "things only matter if they happen to me" ? (2) Nothing real will disappear through this process, only beliefs in illusions. All the real love will stay. And - it can be quite a big process to move from a life where everything is about the story of self, to a life where it is not.

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Please don't believe in anything I say and don't pursue anything that you don't feel a personal passion to pursue. Believing anything external is useless here, and also hanging on to personal beliefs is useless, this aims to go deeper - to direct experience, like seeing the sun on cloudless day.

The most important basic premise for all this is to listen to your heart and be authentic and pay attention to what you learn moment to moment in reality.

I support you in finding your way and listening to your heart, above anything else.

[EYG]

Thank you.

Going back to the exercise:

1. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

No, I cannot. I can clear my mind of thoughts, but I can only hold them briefly.

2. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

As for the thoughts. I can briefly hold physical sensation. I can choose to relax, contract, to be alert, but for the most, I can't choose and control physical sensations.

3. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

No. I can't control emotions.

4. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

No.

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

1. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

No, I cannot. I can clear my mind of thoughts, but I can only hold them briefly.

Check can again. Clearing of thoughts might happen or not, but can you control if it does? Look right now, in a second either (a) a wish to clear thoughts will come or (b) this wish will not come. Can you actually control if (a) or (b) happens?

2. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

As for the thoughts. I can briefly hold physical sensation. I can choose to relax, contract, to be alert, but for the most, I can't choose and control physical sensations.

Again, focusing on sensation might happen or not, the will to do it might come, or not, but can you actually decide if it happens or not?


Also, again, the idea that there is a "spectator" that is you that is passively recieving - can this spectator be found? Or is experience there without any experiencer to be found?


Always remember, for each question really look freshly. This is all about attention and seeing, never about "the mind "knowing" the right answers".

[EYG]

Sorry for the delayed response. I guessed I missed the notification. I went online to make sure I didn't miss anything, and apparently I did.

Check can again. Clearing of thoughts might happen or not, but can you control if it does? Look right now, in a second either (a) a wish to clear thoughts will come or (b) this wish will not come. Can you actually control if (a) or (b) happens?

I'm muting/clearing my thoughts and focusing on breathing. When releasing, I see thoughts and worries.

Again, focusing on sensation might happen or not, the will to do it might come, or not, but can you actually decide if it happens or not?

Yes,I'm focusing on certain areas of my body and their sensation.

Also, again, the idea that there is a "spectator" that is you that is passively recieving - can this spectator be found? Or is experience there without any experiencer to be found?

No, no spectator. Only me. I'm the experiencer.

Am I on the path? Or am I "putting a fight"? What is on the other side of "seeing"?

Thanks and apologies again for the delayed response.

[Elad]

Sorry for the delayed response. I guessed I missed the notification. I went online to make sure I didn't miss anything, and apparently I did.

Check can again. Clearing of thoughts might happen or not, but can you control if it does? Look right now, in a second either (a) a wish to clear thoughts will come or (b) this wish will not come. Can you actually control if (a) or (b) happens?

I'm muting/clearing my thoughts and focusing on breathing. When releasing, I see thoughts and worries.

Again, focusing on sensation might happen or not, the will to do it might come, or not, but can you actually decide if it happens or not?

Yes,I'm focusing on certain areas of my body and their sensation.

What is this you that does that? Where exactly is it?

How can "you" focus if you do not control the will? Do you control the will? Try ask yourself questions like:

Do I want a cookie or hummus?

Do I want to swim a swimming pool or in the ocean?

Do I long most for safety or truth?

Do I long most for love or pleasure?

Just see this: Whatever answer comes and feels true, happens by itself, not "your" control or choice, just life functioning. Including if you start thinking over it. If it happens it just happens - no you to decide it.

Also, again, the idea that there is a "spectator" that is you that is passively recieving - can this spectator be found? Or is experience there without any experiencer to be found?

No, no spectator. Only me. I'm the experiencer.

Again what is this you that is the experiencer? How do you know there is an experiencer? Maybe there is just experience, and the belief in the experiencer is part of it, a habitual thought?

Am I on the path? Or am I "putting a fight"?

The process happening. Sometimes it can look like one step forward two steps backwards, or the opposite, it is what it is.

Do you think you are putting on a fight? If yes, for what?

What is on the other side of "seeing"?

This is for you to discover.




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Here is a story by a fellow guide, Vince, he wrote it in collaboration with ChatGPT, a little inspiration:

She didn’t say it at first.

It hovered at the edge of the conversation, tightening her shoulders, shortening her breath.
Finally, it came out sideways:

“If I let go of control… I’m scared I’ll stop caring.”

They were sitting at a café table by the window. Outside, traffic slid past in uneven waves. She watched a cyclist wobble briefly, then find balance again.

She’d spent years gripping her life tightly — not dramatically, but constantly.
Schedules. Lists. Mental rehearsals. Quiet pressure.

Control had been her fuel.
Fear was the match.

She remembered times when she had loosened — moments of rest, surrender, softness. They felt good… and then quickly frightening.

Because after the softness came the thought:

What if I don’t start again?

She pictured herself stalled. Unmotivated. Drifting.
Life unlived.

As if control were the only thing keeping her upright.

Later that night, lying in bed, she noticed something subtle.

Her hand was clenched.

Not metaphorically.
Actually.

She unclenched it.

Nothing dramatic happened.
The world didn’t collapse.
Her ambitions didn’t evaporate.

But her breath deepened on its own.

She realised then:
what she was afraid of losing wasn’t drive —
it was the familiar strain that had always masqueraded as purpose.

Control had never been the engine.

It was the brake she’d been leaning on so long, she mistook the pressure for motion.

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[Elad]

For the next week try this many times during the days:

Stop thinking for a moment - what remains?

Stop controlling for a moment - what remains?

Stop trying to get any improvement or understanding for a moment - what remains?

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You will see that very soon after you take such short moments, thinking, controlling, striving, etc will return. Including striving to not strive, thinking not to think!

All that is fine. Just keep doing it, even if it is not clear if you "succeed", just see doubt as it is, and don't try to change it. And continue. Many short moments.

Probably gradually, sometimes suddenly, natural effortless wisdom and love will start to reveal itself more. Not as you imagine. Not as your ego wants it. In its own surprising and often subtle way.

[EYG]

Thank you. Will do.

[Elad]

Thank you. Will do.

Cool. In case you missed it, or got confused by the mistaken use of quote function, there is also the message before. Everything in "skin color" background is response to you (you are quoted on a green background).

[EYG]

In case you missed it, or got confused by the mistaken use of quote function

I totally missed it as I was only looking at the last message. I thought you were easing it up on me :)

What is this you that does that? Where exactly is it?

I don't know what is this that does that. I was trying to refrain from using "thoughts". But it feels like an effort that is happening between my ears.

Whatever answer comes and feels true, happens by itself, not "your" control or choice, just life functioning. Including if you start thinking over it. If it happens it just happens - no you to decide it.

It brings me to a great point of discomfort. The will is what I'm holding and feel guided by. Seeing the possibility that there is no will or control, feels like I'm "exposed" and vulnerable. I'm not sure I'm up for this lesson. I see the associated sensation which currently brings fear.

what is this you that is the experiencer? How do you know there is an experiencer? Maybe there is just experience, and the belief in the experiencer is part of it, a habitual thought?

I see, I ear, I smell. I experience. I don't know what I is, but something is experiencing. Experience can't exist without this "something"

"Do you think you are putting on a fight? If yes, for what?"

The points at which Will, thoughts, decisions, and I are questioned make me feel like I'm losing grip with beliefs and thoughts that served me, and I'm afraid of letting go while I don't see my next "north star."

I love the story you shared. I see the relevance. These lines in particular.

She pictured herself stalled. Unmotivated. Drifting.
Life unlived.

As if control were the only thing keeping her upright.

Where will ambitions come if I unclench? I fear to driftt, to be unmotivated to unlive like the charactrer in this story/

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

Your responses are mainly thoughts and beliefs, rather then the result of really looking in direct experience. I could ask questions that can help see that, but really, given your fear and reservation, it is question if you really want to look deeper into your assumptions?

Maybe we should just focus on the exercise I gave you for now. When you have practiced with it a lot of times, many short moments, many short experiments, write me what you see, about your patterns, about the way reality works.......

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

Wanna let you know our exchange here has come up in my mind and heart a few times spontaneously. I sense I did not sufficiently acknowledge the validity of your fear and concern. That of course you would not want to drop your North Star without sensing a better one. I also want to say strong and clear that this is not about becoming passive or careless. It is much closer to what I believe you understood more in our last live session: That action can happen from relaxation and openness to what is already here, and this includes powerful and commited action.

Please just keep exploring that. Not looking for big changes. Just small moments of exploring this, many times. We are helping the system to gradually remember its natural balanced state, seeing that it doesn't have to be caught continuously in straining or collapsing, to function from natural ease and clarity.

Write me when you feel like sharing how it moves.