I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)

[Elad]

Good morning Elad, I would like to take an extra day if that's okay with you!

Sure!

What is your original language? Just curious...

[Reby]

Hi Elad, i'm italian and you?

Lets make it simpler. Stop shortly many times during the day and look: What is going on in the thinking process now? Report to me what you notice. Don't analyze, just report what is observed.

An uncontrolled flow of thoughts

A person who is awake also has and know the feeling of choice, it's not like choice as a part of conventional life goes away. I can differentiate experientially between tripping over a step (not a choice, conventionally speaking) and asking myself right now: Would I prefer to a massage or to go see a movie ("my answer": a massage - and this is a choice conventionally speaking). So: What changes is not having access to the feeling of choice. What changes is, that I am also aware that the choice also ultimately came mysteriously by itself. Now this sense of the mysterious nature is not there all the time. If I just focus on say a process of thinking through something and making choices, that is all that is experienced: thinking through something and making choices. It is only if I attend to "where does this come from", like you did with the numbers now, then it is seen clearly that even "my" choices and "my" will are actually spontaneous emergent phenopmena. And... Recognizing again and again this spontaneous mysterious emergence across situations, especially those where we tend to have a very sticky and painful sense of struggle, gradually (and sometimes more suddenly) infuses life with the "taste" of liberated nature or mystery.

Any questions to this?

No, everything is clear

Now lets continue with this. During the next days, take at least 3 periods of between 5 and 25 min. Sit facing a wall, eyes open until the times rings. While sitting pay attention to every movement and thought that happens, looking: What is choosing and controlling the movements, thoughts and feelings that come and go?

Let me know what you experience.

No choice, I don't see how there could be since everything comes naturally, already "done."
I feel more like someone who witnesses things unfold

[Elad]

Hey Reby

Hi Elad, i'm italian and you?

I am half Danish half Israeli.

Lets make it simpler. Stop shortly many times during the day and look: What is going on in the thinking process now? Report to me what you notice. Don't analyze, just report what is observed.

An uncontrolled flow of thoughts

Your answer is clear. And it gives almost no observations about the changes in thoughts in terms of content or other qualities. I wonder how come it is so? I am curious how many times did you look? How much did you try to describe?


[

quote=Elad]

Any questions to this?

No, everything is clear

Great.

Now lets continue with this. During the next days, take at least 3 periods of between 5 and 25 min. Sit facing a wall, eyes open until the times rings. While sitting pay attention to every movement and thought that happens, looking: What is choosing and controlling the movements, thoughts and feelings that come and go?

Let me know what you experience.

No choice, I don't see how there could be since everything comes naturally, already "done."

[/quote]



Very clear.

I feel more like someone who witnesses things unfold

Now let's look at this supposed "witness".

Where does this witness start or end?

Is the world inside the witness, or is the witness inside the world, or would either way of saying it just be a thought/belief?

Remember, don't answer from rational knowledge - look and report what is seen.

[Reby]

Hi Elad

Your answer is clear. And it gives almost no observations about the changes in thoughts in terms of content or other qualities. I wonder how come it is so?

Sorry, I tend to be brief.
It's a river of wild thoughts. Sometimes I get sucked into them and they seem to create physical responses. Other times I experience them as if they were titles scrolling on the screen, other times as a faint background noise.
Sometimes they're painful thoughts, other thoughts that don't concern me, other times they're songs sung to a certain point, other thoughts of love/anger/depression, etc.
Sometimes they're thoughts that then trigger an action, other times they're ignored and the action doesn't start.
But everything is automatic. I've noticed that even when I "resurface" from to be sucked... it simply happens on its own.
Despite this, I feel as if I'm the one thinking, whatever the nature of the thought. I see that it's automatic, but at the same time it's me/I/mine.

I am curious how many times did you look?

They are before my eyes throughout the day.
Sometimes I'm more present to this, sometimes less, but I still think I'm present to they enough times to see the mechanism.

Now let's look at this supposed "witness".

Where does this witness start or end?

It seems behind the eyes, inside the head.

Is the world inside the witness, or is the witness inside the world, or would either way of saying it just be a thought/belief?

I experience the witness both as inside the body (witness is inside the world) and as that within which the body appears, along with everything else. (The world is inside the witness.)
So from these points of view, the first two seem correct to me.
Then both also seem like concepts to me.
Also...in my direct experience, I can say that I have not found any witness, but only a concept/belief about it, which are the things mentioned above...

There's a lot of confusion.
Sorry..!

[Reby]

So grateful for your time! 🙏

[Elad]

Hey Reby, thank you, and lots of clarity here, things are flowing along...

Regarding being short - all good, as long as there is a lot of looking :) In the end, it is always what you directly see, feel and discover in real time, not what is written, that is most imortant.

Now let's look at this supposed "witness".

Where does this witness start or end?

It seems behind the eyes, inside the head.

Try to stay with this supposed experience of a witness behind the eyes. Just drop the words and thoughts many times and just feel into it. What is actually there? Can a witness be experienced there? Or is it just a belief?

Also...in my direct experience, I can say that I have not found any witness, but only a concept/belief about it, which are the things mentioned above..

.


Yes!

There's a lot of confusion.
Sorry..!

We are all good, we are here exactly to help the natural clarity see the confusion for what it is. Actually I hear quite a lot clarity.

everything is automatic. I've noticed that even when I "resurface" from to be sucked... it simply happens on its own.
Despite this, I feel as if I'm the one thinking, whatever the nature of the thought. I see that it's automatic, but at the same time it's me/I/mine.

The first part here is very clear. Regarding the last part:

What does it mean that it is you/yours? Does it mean that there is a real separate self there, or just that it is "you/yours" in terms of normal everyday life thinking and communication?

Of course I know to say that it is me/Elad writing this now, and not you/Reby. And this is a very automatic and obvious experience. This is not supposed to change. If you did not know what is *conventionally* and in terms of *normal relational and everyday life thinking/feeling* you/yours - you could not function and would be in a mental hospital. This is not what this is about. It is just about recognizing that even this normal feeling of me/mine is just constructed/helpful mechanism of thought, with no real separate self in it or controlling it. Can you see this?

[Reby]

Hi Elad

Try to stay with this supposed experience of a witness behind the eyes. Just drop the words and thoughts many times and just feel into it. What is actually there?

Physical sensations

Can a witness be experienced there? Or is it just a belief?

It's certainly a belief too, but I can't see the situation clearly.

Actually I hear quite a lot clarity.

I suspect it's not my doing, just a chemical clarity...
Otherwise, I've always been so overwhelmed by thoughts and emotions, I don't think I'd be able to see much.

What does it mean that it is you/yours? Does it mean that there is a real separate self there, or just that it is "you/yours" in terms of normal everyday life thinking and communication?

That there is a true separate self or at least that's how I feel

Of course I know to say that it is me/Elad writing this now, and not you/Reby. And this is a very automatic and obvious experience. This is not supposed to change. If you did not know what is *conventionally* and in terms of *normal relational and everyday life thinking/feeling* you/yours - you could not function and would be in a mental hospital. This is not what this is about. It is just about recognizing that even this normal feeling of me/mine is just constructed/helpful mechanism of thought, with no real separate self in it or controlling it. Can you see this?

Yes but I feel like a separate self inside (without control - or rather - with only the illusion/sensation of control)

[Elad]

Try to stay with this supposed experience of a witness behind the eyes. Just drop the words and thoughts many times and just feel into it. What is actually there?

Physical sensations

Clear here

Can a witness be experienced there? Or is it just a belief?

It's certainly a belief too, but I can't see the situation clearly.

What is seeing that it is a belief? What is seeing this truth?

And what is claiming the thought "I can't see it"?

Don't repeat your negative beliefs about "yourself" like an old stubborn record. Look.

Actually I hear quite a lot clarity.

I suspect it's not my doing, just a chemical clarity...
Otherwise, I've always been so overwhelmed by thoughts and emotions, I don't think I'd be able to see much.

Look here the fantasy story of a "only chemical" clarity where "the real you" (ha) would be overwhelmed. Pure fantasy. In reality, no matter if there is calm or overwhelm, and what combinations of chemicals happens to float in a brain in a given time, there is no you there that can claim that. Look. And the clarity I refer to is neither the calm given by medication nor an overwhelm of trauma/unhappy experiences plus "this is me" fantasy. I refer strictly to the clarity in some of the answers. Like many others, clarity is there in the looking ("your looking" conventionally speaking) and a moment after the old boring story is told "but hey, this me that doesn't get it" (and a story about a me that does get it would be equally fictional).

What does it mean that it is you/yours? Does it mean that there is a real separate self there, or just that it is "you/yours" in terms of normal everyday life thinking and communication?

That there is a true separate self or at least that's how I feel

Of course I know to say that it is me/Elad writing this now, and not you/Reby. And this is a very automatic and obvious experience. This is not supposed to change. If you did not know what is *conventionally* and in terms of *normal relational and everyday life thinking/feeling* you/yours - you could not function and would be in a mental hospital. This is not what this is about. It is just about recognizing that even this normal feeling of me/mine is just constructed/helpful mechanism of thought, with no real separate self in it or controlling it. Can you see this?

Yes but I feel like a separate self inside (without control - or rather - with only the illusion/sensation of control)

I didn't ask "how you feel". When you speak about "how you feel" you don't refer to what is directly FELT, you just retell the old invested stories, like a loop. I ask what you directly see.


What is creating this boring repetitive loop of "this is how I feel, this is me who doesn't get it, this is me whose clarity is not real because chemical" bla bla? Is there a you doing it? Or it just is what happens when it happens?

[Reby]

What is seeing that it is a belief? What is seeing this truth?

And what is claiming the thought "I can't see it"?

Sorry, i'm not sure to understand what you're asking me

What is creating this boring repetitive loop of "this is how I feel, this is me who doesn't get it, this is me whose clarity is not real because chemical" bla bla?

Thought

Is there a you doing it?

No, i only witnessing

Or it just is what happens when it happens?

It just is what happens

Thanks 🙏

[Elad]

No, i only witnessing

Is there "I" witnessing, or just witnessing happening?

Really look at what can be found, not what the habit thought loop (that is not your choice and not in your control and not you) says.

Here is an exercise to help with this. If you did it before, do it again.


Mind labelling experience


Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels create what is there prior to being described, or just describe it with more or less simplicity and objecitivty?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[Reby]

Hi Elad

Is there "I" witnessing, or just witnessing happening?

Witnessing happening
It's not something I do

Mind labelling experience
1.Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Honestly, I don't know which of the two is truer.
The description without the "I" seems closer to reality, more "intimate."
"I" seems like a superstructure, something added, superfluous, unnecessary.

. What is here without labels?

Really i don't know

. Do labels create what is there prior to being described, or just describe it with more or less simplicity and objecitivty?

Only describe

. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Without the word "I" the body relaxes, the belly relaxes

[Elad]

Beautiful!

Now I want you to consider the very real option that seeing already is happening.

The only "obstacle" there is left is an habitual loop of thoughts expecting this should be something different/better and/or that "you" are not there.

This habitual loop is not something "you do" (there is no you to do it). It just a very common pattern, that countless body-minds (without a separate self) "run" for a while until it seen clearly (not by anyone) that it is just another habitual pattern without self, in fact another clear expression of no separate self, no agent.

What happens when you read the following sentence:

"the separate self has been seen through, it's just this simple clear seeing, nothing special"

?

Relief?
Disapointment?
The mind counter-arguing? (but I was told it special identity shift bla bla bla)
SOmething else?

Just read out loud the sentence several times and see what reactions come up, seeing alsoclearly that they are not chosen by anyone, are not point to anyone or anything (except more thoughts and sensations without self). Whatever it is, just ee it and feel it, let it be exactly as it is. The initial reactions to seeing can be everything between relief, dissapointment, disbelief, whatever. It's just more conditioning without a self. What we conventionally call "the character" (without a separate self) playing out in its own way, just like all other natural phenomena.

Let me know what is seen.

[Reby]

Disappointment
The thought rebels,
"It's not like that!"
Because in reality I don't feel any change, nothing different.
And the usual negative thought:
"Did you think it wasn't happening to me in a "lukewarm" way?"
No, really, I don't want to contradict you, but...

If nothing really changes, what are we talking about?
sorry there's a bit of anger
not towards you obviously

And then I ask myself: what now? What are the next steps? I want more!

My questions remained unanswered:
1) What am I?
2) What is all this?

Anger

sorry, I poured out what's there....

[Elad]

Great, it is normal to have disappointment and anger as a first reaction. So many come to this, not just because they want truth, but because they hope this will solve problems - emotional and etc.

Stay with the anger and disappointment. Do the exercise from my last message more times - at least 7 times more. See the arguing, bargaining, dissapointment, whatever is there.

My questions remained unanswered:
1) What am I

?


What is Santa Claus? What is The Tooth Ferry or a teddy bear that is believed to be alive? It is a fiction. It is also mystery, like all other thoughts, like existence itself.

2) What is all this?

No one knows. It is a mystery. People come to this thinking they will get answers. Instead they see that all that happens is that beliefs and illusions are lost - including enjoyable expectations and hopes. What stays is life, the mystery, playing out whatever way it is.

Staying with that this is it - what is the biggest dissapointment about it? What was your biggest expectation to now let go of?

While seeing is happening, we are not finished. Continue to share what comes up with openness like in this last message from you sent.

[Reby]

Do the exercise from my last message more times - at least 7 times more.

Yes, ok

Staying with that this is it - what is the biggest dissapointment about it? What was your biggest expectation to now let go of?

I cry with rage.
I wanted to have the big answers in my hands.
It seems like a huge mockery (not being able to know).
I had so much hope for this...
all the books I'd read, all the videos I'd seen, the meetings with enlightened people. What were they talking about?
The greatest hope?
I wanted knowledge
I don't know if I'll be able to let go.