I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)

[Reby]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That what I think I am is just a glaring delusion.
I am not the body, I am not the thoughts, I am nothing

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a caring and passionate guide who can direct and point me. I would like him to see my blind spots and my deceptions.
I tend to be lazy, I need a guide to keep me on track .
I hope I'm not asking too much

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To finally be able to see that I don't exist which sounds strange to me but I'm ready to put myself on the line.
As I said above I hope to receive some guidance that can keep me focused , despite the intensity of my interest, I have a tendency to get lost along the way

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Many non-dual readings
Some Satsangs

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are you in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Reby]

hello Rali!!!
sorry I missed your notification! Thanks for writing me!

you can call me Reby and I am in the Central European Time Zone

Thank you very much for accepting my request!
I have read and confirm everything, for me we can start :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in the Central European Time Zone

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

Thank you very much for accepting my request!
I have read and confirm everything, for me we can start :)

It’s my pleasure :)! Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Reby]

Hi Rali :))

. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I know nothing will change but there will be a different perception/understanding of things

. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect feelings and thoughts to change (even if not immediately)

What do you want not to happen?

I would not want that from understanding emotional and mental relief not to come from .

What are you hoping for?

I hope to get the truth and that a sense of peace comes from it.

What is missing?

The real vision, whatever it is

I wish you a nice Saturday

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[Reby]

Hi Rali

If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Yes, it's ok!

If you look for the I, what is there?

The body, undoubtedly.
Thoughts and the feeling of being here

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

It doesn't give me great feelings, maybe because I've read it so many times and it's become a concept.
I understand and see that I'm not the one making decisions or taking actions that are only the result of conditioning over which I had no power, despite this I suffer a lot from the responsibility of wrong choices. However, it's impossible for me to see that the experiencer and the witness do not exist

Where exactly did you look?

I looked at the body, the thought

What exactly did you find?

The body, the thought, my presence

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

In general, not much emerges, as I wrote above. The thought says that it is impossible because "here I am..!"
A thought of the probability of relief also emerges, from the weight of responsibility.

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby
Thank you for your honest reply! It gives me an idea where to look. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience.

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[Reby]

Hi Rali

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes!

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

all that can be experienced is the color, the tactile sensation and the thought about the apple however I cannot say that the apple is not in reality since apple is the word that indicates that set of direct perceptions given from this object .. maybe there is something I don't understand?

Thank you!!

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby

all that can be experienced is the color, the tactile sensation and the thought about the apple however I cannot say that the apple is not in reality since apple is the word that indicates that set of direct perceptions given from this object .. maybe there is something I don't understand?

YES. Let’s clear it all the way out.
Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to patterns in hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Let's have a look...

Right now—forget what “apple” means. Don’t go to logic, don’t defend the concept. Just look. Play with a real apple or another fruit or any other object...
What is actually here?
There’s:
•a patch of colour,
•maybe a texture,
•maybe a smell,
•maybe taste or sound if you're biting into it,
•and a thought: “apple.”
The thought says, “That’s an apple.”
But can you find apple in the seeing?
That’s what language does: it points to patterns in the sense-field. But where is the thing?
Not the perceptions. Not the labels. The thing itself.
Can you find it? How can you probably know that an apple exist on its own, if all you have is the sensory experience? To say that an object called apple or papel or whatever exists outside of the sensory experience would be an assumption, wouldn’t it? A thought comes along to label that particular experience and claim that there is an inherent object, but all that is experienced is particular seeing, smelling, tasting, and feeling (no hearing in this case) which is conditionally labelled “apple”. Is that clear or you need more pointing?
Love
Rali

[Reby]

Good evening Rali,
I'm so confused I can't even figure out what's confusing me, if that makes sense.. can you deeper further if possible please?
sorry..🙏

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby
Don’t need to apologise. If all there is… your conditioning…
Let’s burn right through the confusion. Don’t analyse this. Don’t try to understand. Just look—with your actual senses. That’s it.
Pick up an object again. Anything. Don’t name it. Don’t think about it. Just feel what’s there.
Now answer directly from what’s happening—not your thoughts about it:
Is there a thing there?
Or is there only:
•Seeing — patches of colour
•Touching — sensation of pressure, temperature, texture
•Maybe smell, maybe taste
•And then a thought — "This is a ___"
Where is the “object” in the direct experience?
Look at the picture below.

Is there any actual dividing between any of these colours, or is there just seamless colour which thought divides into different objects, with different labels and seeming space between them; and then further divides them into different colours?
Seeing is like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of objects is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper. So where is the object exactly? Is the object outside of seeing? In your DE are there seeing and an object OR just seeing?

Close your eyes and just touch the object. Strip the label. What is there?
There is a sensation? Are there two sensations – one of your fingers and one of the object, OR one sensation (labelled “fingers touching object”)? If all there is a sensation, where is the “thing” left behind?
Don’t say “I know it’s there.” That’s a thought. Look again. Stay with the raw experience disregarding the story of this and this ...

Please don’t worry to ask for more guidance. It’s important to see this for yourself!
Love
Rali

[Reby]

Hi Rali

Pick up an object again. Anything. Don’t name it. Don’t think about it. Just feel what’s there.
Now answer directly from what’s happening—not your thoughts about it:
Is there a thing there?

Ok, I take the lighter, it is yellow and it is in my hand
All I experience is color and sensation. This is clear.
But I cannot deconstruct the concept of the lighter object in my hand. I see that it is a concept but -paradox- it seems more real than the perceptions alone.

Where is the “object” in the direct experience?

In direct experience I find only color and sensation but somehow the object is there

Is there any actual dividing between any of these colours, or is there just seamless colour which thought divides into different objects, with different labels and seeming space between them; and then further divides them into different colours?

There is only colours but here the volume is missing and perhaps it is also this that in reality deceives me by creating an object-form (the volume - which then I see is only a sensation but gives the idea of ​​a thing of itself in space)
I don't know if I managed to be clear in my explanation... in short I think it's the volume that creates the most problems for me in deconstructing the concept of object

So where is the object exactly?

in my field of vision

Is the object outside of seeing?

No

In your DE are there seeing and an object OR just seeing?

Seeing and the object seen. I know this is the "wrong" answer but it is. Sometimes I see how EVERYTHING is a concept. It seems like we are experiencing something, but in reality we are seeing the concept regarding perceptions. but the understanding (if it is so) stops there.

Close your eyes and just touch the object. Strip the label. What is there?

A sensation

There is a sensation? Are there two sensations – one of your fingers and one of the object, OR one sensation (labelled “fingers touching object”)?

A unique sensation

If all there is a sensation, where is the “thing” left behind?

I get knotted . I know I have to put aside the thought that says "it's the sensation of touching the lighter" but I can't.
I see that in the direct experience there is ONLY the Sensation but somehow it's as if I don't trust that and that's it.


In summary, i follow you that all I find is color and sensation but I really can't see how we can say that the object doesn't exist. Sorry, I wouldn't want to insist..
I guess it's a matter of practice, I've been doing it all day today and will continue to do so
If you have other examples, other material to give me on this topic I would be grateful

I thank you and I am very grateful for the time you dedicate to me!

[poppyseed]

Hi Reby
Don’t need to apologise! I appreciate your honesty and determination to see for yourself!
Now stay right here with me—don’t move away into explaining, doubting, or thinking about this. You’re looking exactly where you need to.

I see that in the direct experience there is ONLY the sensation but somehow it's as if I don't trust that and that's it.

That is it.
That “not trusting it (i.e. DE)” is the self reasserting—only in thought.
The “I” that insists the object must be there is just a thought appearing after the experience. Just a layer. A reflex. A voice that says, “Yeah but it feels like something is there.” Look at that voice—not through it.
Let’s agree:
Seems like, feels like, it’s as if = thought content (not DE)
Nothing in DE is seems/feels like. It’s either there or not.
Right now, slow down…
Touch the lighter.
Be utterly still. Feel the sensation.
Now:
Can you find anything in the sensation itself that says “lighter”? Does the sensation has a certain shape, or is it ungraspable?
Can the sensation declare itself to be anything at all?
Can it say “I am a separate object, I am volume, I am outside of perception”?
Or is that only added by thought?
Here’s what’s happening:
The sensation is raw. Unlabelled. Immediate.
Then thought comes in after—and assigns/talks about solidity, volume, identity.
Then another thought says “That’s realer than the sensation.”
Catch it.
The deception isn’t volume—it’s belief in a knower of volume. A belief that anything thought says is truth.
So try this:
Instead of deconstructing the object… try letting it win.
Let the lighter be exactly as it appears in DE: colour, sensation, a thought that says “lighter”.
Now where is the object—as a thing-in-itself? Let the thought say “lighter”—fine.
But what is it without the thought?
Do you see?

Have a look at this abstract painting.


Seeing can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes, dimensions, etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there - they are only formed out of colour - but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist? The same is happening with all experience. It is thought that divides experience into different abstractions and gives them objectivity via labels (colour, sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation), dimensions (volume), meaning and purpose and then further overlays these with stories about them.
Have you seen the illusion of a Kanitza Triangle:

Seeing and the object seen. I know this is the "wrong" answer but it is. Sometimes I see how EVERYTHING is a concept. It seems like we are experiencing something, but in reality we are seeing the concept regarding perceptions. but the understanding (if it is so) stops there.

OK… Now LOOK! Where is the border where seeing ends and the seen begins? Can you find any beams or lasers (that seeing is made of), anything at all OR that border is it a mental construct? What is seen is within the seeing of it…
Next thing you will tell me that seeing comes through your eyes and ends in the object so let’s explore this…

Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - it really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Reby, a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Play with this throughout the day and report what is SEEN (not interested in what thought says about it, the stories that we’ve all heard). We are only interested in DE
Love
Rali

[Reby]

Good evening Rali,
I would like to take another day to look,
if it's okay for you :)