Seeing the illusion of self

[FritzAA]

Now look directly: in that immediate, vivid alive-ness, is there a center?

No, I don't find a center.

Then what is it, without any reference to the story?

It is 'me'. I can't define it further than that.

That felt aliveness—does it need to belong to anyone?

No

If there’s no boundary, and no ownership—what’s left to be "me"?

No boundary is necessary. Me could take up lots of space. There's no ownership-- that would imply there are TWO mes, and one owns the other.

Feel the edge where the sense of aliveness ends and something else begins.

I can't find an edge.

If not, what’s the substance of the one who claims to feel it?

I don't know.

Love,
Fritz

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz,

No boundary is necessary. Me could take up lots of space. There's no ownership-- that would imply there are TWO mes, and one owns the other.

Let’s go right into this.

In your actual, present experience—without thought, without imagination—what is “me”?

Look right now. Not what you believe. Not what you were told. Not what you read. Not even what feels intuitive. Drop it all and look:

Is there any actual thing that is “me”?

L.

[FritzAA]

Is there any actual thing that is “me”?

Yes. I can feel it, the way I can feel gravity, or love. I can't describe it or define it further. Words are not adequate because this sense is prior to all words. It is even prior to thought. Thoughts only arise after the sense of me.

Love,
Fritz

[FritzAA]

Is there any actual thing that is “me”?

I know my answer is not typical of the Liberation Unleashed community. I know that what I'm SUPPOSED to say is "I assumed the Self was real, but when I really seriously questioned it, I found that it was just a series of thoughts that had solidified into a belief. Its supposed existence did not survive serious inquiry."

I like people who say things like that! I want to be someone who says that! I even believe such people are much smarter, or more sensitive, or better questioners, or more accurate investigators, or more 'spiritual' than I am.

But that is simply not what I find. What I call 'me' is felt all the time. It never goes away. It exists prior to thought, prior to emotion, prior to sensation. It is not a bunch of thoughts laid over a sensation (or if it is, then I am not sensitive enough to detect that.)

I believe there are lucky people who are sensitive enough to detect that the self is not real. Then there are others, like me, who can not see that. For me, the self is real. Is it possible this is a mental illness, or illusion, on my part? I suppose. Maybe if I could somehow get 'outside my head' I could look in and see that the Me is not real. But as things are, it is real to me.

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz,
Oh, somehow I missed your previous reply...

I know my answer is not typical of the Liberation Unleashed community. I know that what I'm SUPPOSED to say is "I assumed the Self was real, but when I really seriously questioned it, I found that it was just a series of thoughts that had solidified into a belief. Its supposed existence did not survive serious inquiry."

I like people who say things like that! I want to be someone who says that! I even believe such people are much smarter, or more sensitive, or better questioners, or more accurate investigators, or more 'spiritual' than I am.

But that is simply not what I find. What I call 'me' is felt all the time. It never goes away. It exists prior to thought, prior to emotion, prior to sensation. It is not a bunch of thoughts laid over a sensation (or if it is, then I am not sensitive enough to detect that.)

I believe there are lucky people who are sensitive enough to detect that the self is not real. Then there are others, like me, who can not see that. For me, the self is real. Is it possible this is a mental illness, or illusion, on my part? I suppose. Maybe if I could somehow get 'outside my head' I could look in and see that the Me is not real. But as things are, it is real to me.

Thank you for sharing so honestly and vulnerably. What you wrote touched something very human — the longing to see clearly, to know truth, and to not pretend to have arrived at an answer that doesn't feel true to your direct experience. That honesty is far more valuable than saying what you're "supposed" to say.

It sounds like there's a deep sincerity in your search — and also a quiet longing, a sense that maybe there’s something more to see...

What comes when you ask that question:

“What would I be without the belief that I’m someone?”

The invitation is not to adopt a new belief, but to gently rest in that question and see what reveals itself.

Sending love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

"What would I be without the belief that I’m someone?”

That would be wonderful! Getting rid of the belief that I am someone is the goal of spiritual practice.

It seems to me that someone who asks me to ask such a question must believe that I am IN FAVOR of being a separate self. That somehow I WANT to be a someone. Nothing could be further from the truth. I see NO value in separation. There is nothing in me that wants to convince others that separation is real. I HATE feeling like an individual.

When I get up in the morning and see that I still feel like a self I cry 'NO! It's STILL THERE! Despite bombarding the self with thousands of inquiries, questions, and investigations, it is STILL THERE.

So if you ask me what I would be without the belief that I'm someone, I say "Great! It would solve everything! Make it happen!" But for some reason inquiry, and questioning, and meditation, and all the spiritual techniques don't make it happen. Nowadays I actually look forward to death, because I'm sure that death is the perfect way to eliminate all sense that there is a someone. Even non-existence is better than being a someone.

Love,
Fritz

[Luchana]

Thank you for sharing this with me, Fritz. I hear your words and feel the immense pain, frustration, and honesty in them. Your cry of "NO!" is a profound expression of your deepest longing for freedom.

Please know, the question "What would I be without the belief that I'm someone?" is not meant to imply that you want to be a separate self. On the contrary, it is asked precisely because the belief in a "someone" is the source of all the pain you are describing. It is a pointer to the freedom you long for, not an endorsement of the imprisonment you feel.

I understand completely the exhaustion and despair of seeing the self still there, despite all the spiritual efforts. That feeling of being misunderstood, of feeling that your deepest truth is being ignored, is one of the most painful parts of the journey.

But what if the goal is not to "get rid of" the self, which only creates more struggle? What if the goal is to see so clearly that the belief in the separate self simply falls away on its own? Your tears, your frustration, your feeling of hate—they are not a sign of failure. They are the raw, pure aliveness itself, showing up as a deeply human form of pain and longing.

The very 'NO!' is a gateway. It is the truth of reality speaking through the form of frustration. You don't have to fix a single thing.

Just feel the pain of it, and know that even that feeling is the very life you are seeking to live.

With so much love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

Just feel the pain of it, and know that even that feeling is the very life you are seeking to live.

Yes, the pain of not 'Seeing' is no less sacred than anything else. I have come to accept that I will not see clearly in this lifetime, will not see through the illusion of separation. That pain must be enough.

[FritzAA]

What has occurred to me over the last several days is a thought I'd never entertained before: even if the belief in the separate self never falls away on its own in THIS particular body-mind, it HAS done so for many others! I live on a planet where thousands of people have lost the belief in separation. That is a good thing! I can take comfort in the fact that so many no longer see themselves as a Self.

Love Fritz

[Luchana]

That's a profound observation. It points to the core insight of non-duality: The very comfort you feel is the shared reality, the so called oneness :-)


Are you separate from that reality?

Love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

Are you separate from that reality?

Yes, I am separate from that reality. I believe that others are able to see the separate self as false, and that is great for them, but I do not share that insight. However I think it is good for Humanity that so many can see it.

Love,
Fritz

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz.
I'm really touched by your honestly and willingness to continue this inquiry here. I am afraid I can't be at help any longer for I'm going to take a pause guiding in the forum.
Would you like me to ask another fellow guide if they can be of service in your quest to freedom?

Sending love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

Hi Luchana,

Yes, that would be nice if you recommended another guide. But only if you think I won't drive them crazy! Haha!

Love, Fritz

[Luchana]

Let me ask and will come back to you again hopefully soon.

Sending love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi again Fritz,

Elad will support you further here.

Thank you again for your willingness to continue this exploration for freedom.

Sending love,
Luchana