Seeing the illusion of self

[FritzAA]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self-illusion is what causes many human problems. It develops some time during childhood and continues
for most people throughout their lives. It represents separation from Life as a whole.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to see that the 'Me' is an illusion. I have been on many spiritual paths
in my life and I have a 'belief' that the 'I' is not really there, but I don't experience
it as true in my own life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like someone to help me locate whatever block I have that
prevents me from seeing that Self is not real. Whatever it is seems to
have been 'baked in' somehow, and I'm unable to remove it myself.
If someone says to me "Look at Direct Experience; is there a self there?"
I find it is there.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced Zen meditation for years. I have gone to 3 Vipassana retreats.
I have practiced self-inquiry according to Dzogchen Buddhism. I have always
been a searcher.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bluejay]

Hi Fritz (is it okay if I call you that)?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Also, what time zone are you in? :)

[FritzAA]

Hi Bluejay (is that what I call you?)

I agree to the conditions.

How will life change? There will be no reference to an 'I'. Things will happen as before, but not to a 'someone'.

How will you change? 'You' won't exist any more! I mean there will still be a self that answers when someone calls my name, but it won't be a distinct independent entity.

What will be different? Life will go on as before, but it won't be revolving around a 'self'.

What is missing?

The insight that the self is an illusion.

Fritz

[Bluejay]

Hi Bluejay (is that what I call you?)

You can call me Bluejay or Henri.

I agree to the conditions.

Excellent!

Your expectations seem grounded. We can get started.

Question 1: “What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?”

Question 2: "What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?"

Since you mentioned that "The insight that the self is an illusion" is missing for you, the above questions are meant to reveal how the illusion of self is maintained.

Also, if you can, please use the quote function to answer questions as I've done above. It helps with clarity not just for me, but when other guides read your answers to the final questions.

Thanks!

[FritzAA]

Hi Henri,

Did you get my last message? It's been 3 days and I wonder if you got it. You suggested messaging back and forth every 1 or 2 days, but if that doesn't work for you we can change it.

Thanks!
Fritz

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz,

I'm Luchana and I can walk with you here and see how it goes if that is ok for you?

I prefer to start a fresh so to speak, can you look at the question bellow and reply from experience:

In your daily life when you are not inquiring, not looking, not doing any practice -

does it feel like "I'm thinking", "I'm choosing", "I'm living my life?"


Sending love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

In your daily life when you are not inquiring, not looking, not doing any practice -

does it feel like "I'm thinking", "I'm choosing", "I'm living my life?"

Hi Luchana!

Yes, it does feel like that. And it feels like the 'I' is in a spot located behind my eyes.

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz

(would you like me to call you like that or you prefer another name?)

Yes, it does feel like that. And it feels like the 'I' is in a spot located behind my eyes.

thank you for your honest reply.

Can you bring this feeling of an "I" behind the eyes closer.
Try to localise It.
Where EXACTLY is this feeling of "I"
When you find the exact location stay there and curiously examine the feeling.

Does the raw sensation knows that it is a feeling of I?

Does it know anything?

What brings that information here?

How do you know that the "I" is located behind the eyes?

Sending love,
Luchana

ps. This Saturday 27th of May we are making a day online retreat...
here are the details if you feel an impulse to join message me.

https://awakeningawakened.com

[FritzAA]

Hi Luchana,

Yes, you can call me Fritz.

The feeling of 'I' is 2 centimeters behind my eyes. That's what Direct Experience tells me. Of course my thoughts come in
and say "That is ridiculous! We know from science that there is just brain matter there." But that would be bringing thought in, and I am dedicated to Direct Experience only.

Does the raw sensation knows that it is a feeling of I?

Yes it does. In Direct Experience, that is what I find.

Does it know anything?

No.

What brings that information here?

There is no information, so nothing is brought anywhere.

How do you know that the "I" is located behind the eyes?

I feel it there. My thoughts tell me it is NOT there, because neuroscientists can't find a Self when they dig into
the brain. And I have a 'belief' that it's not there, because so many LU people say it is not there.

But since I am dedicated to direct experience and not thoughts or emotions or other people's views, I must report
what I feel: the 'I' is there behind my eyes. No matter how hard I look I cannot honestly say "The I is not there."

Thanks!

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz,

The feeling of 'I' is 2 centimeters behind my eyes. That's what Direct Experience tells me. Of course my thoughts come in
and say "That is ridiculous! We know from science that there is just brain matter there." But that would be bringing thought in, and I am dedicated to Direct Experience only.

But since I am dedicated to direct experience and not thoughts or emotions or other people's views, I must report
what I feel: the 'I' is there behind my eyes. No matter how hard I look I cannot honestly say "The I is not there."

Thank you for your honesty and willingness to look.

Let's clarify something regarding the direct experience and looking, not thinking.

There is a difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are.
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Sending love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

Hi Luchana,

Yes, this makes sense and I agree. When you tell me to look for the self I do not rely on memory
or thought or on what experts say, even LU experts. I look RIGHT NOW in direct experience. There may be thoughts saying "This is silly, this won't work, I've done this before" but I ignore them and just look.

Thanks,
Fritz

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz,

Yes, this makes sense and I agree. When you tell me to look for the self I do not rely on memory
or thought or on what experts say, even LU experts. I look RIGHT NOW in direct experience. There may be thoughts saying "This is silly, this won't work, I've done this before" but I ignore them and just look.

Lovely. Yea, this is the way we can LOOK at thoughts, regardless of what their content (comment) is.

Here is a thought exercise.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Please look the questions and reply each one individually.
Take your time.

Tomorrow, 27th of May (Saturday) we open a space for an intense exploration 3 x 90 min. on that matter.
Have a look at the details and if you have an implus just jump, without thinking :-)

Down The Rabbit Hole – 27th of May
One day online retreat. 3 meetings 90 min each.
Starts 3:00 pm ends 8:30 pm Sofia, Bulgaria EEST
Details:

https://awakeningawakened.com

Sending much love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They just appear and disappear from nowhere.

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

No

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

[Luchana]

Hi Fritz.

Your replies seem right, but in a way mechanical.

Tell me
How does it feel to see experientially that there is NO control over thoughts whatsoever?


And also what do you do precisely in order to think?

How do you make a thought into existence?


Sending love,
Luchana

[FritzAA]

How does it feel to see experientially that there is NO control over thoughts whatsoever?

contro

I don't see that there is NO control. There isn't MUCH control. It feels neutral, normal, like that's how
things are. No strong emotions either way.

And also what do you do precisely in order to think?

I make a to-do list in the morning and try to follow it through the day. The things on the list guide me on what
to think about. There are also lots of other thoughts I have no control over that just show up from time to time.

How do you make a thought into existence?

I think of a subject matter. For example, today I needed to write emails. So I went to my email box and
scanned it. As I read each one, I decided whether to reply or not.

But maybe that doesn't answer your question: how do I make a thought into existence? I suppose technically speaking, I can't do that.