Trying to see through fetter 1

[lostandfound]

Hi Elad,

Your questions are difficult to answer.

I'm having a hard time discerning between my direct experience and any thoughts that come up. For example, when I "look for the looker" it "feels" like the looker is somewhere up in my head. Yet that is also seen. When I "look" at my hand, it "feels" like I'm looking from my head, but yet the sensation is in my hand. It seems the sense that "I'm looking from my head" is a thought, yet it doesn't feel that way exactly.

How can I have "awareness" of the sensation in my hand at the hand, yet I'm telling myself the awareness of the awareness of my hand is in my head? That must be a thought, right?

I have aphantasia (no to very little visual images in my mind), which I think makes things more difficult to discern. My "thoughts" aren't very clear. They are more like vague impressions.

Thank you.
JT

[lostandfound]

And when I say I "look" at my hand, I mean when I feel the sensations in my hand. I don't mean visual looking.

[Elad]

Hi JT,

Are you on board with not watching/reading other awakening stuff for a couple of months, staying focused within our collaboration here?

[lostandfound]

Hi Elad,

Yes, I can do that.

JT

[Elad]

It is completely normal to have a hard time discerning deeply and unconsciously believed thoughts from direct experience.

Here is an exercise for you. Watch/listen to the following video. Only the one I send you here. While listening notice all your reactions, without trying to change them at all. And look: Are you the one choosing the reactions, thoughts, feelings, sense of agreeing or not, getting it or not, it being helpful or not? Or does it just happen whichever way it happens?

Here is the video:

https://youtu.be/v2UnnObWkgw?si=vHhl06yoyqaAmLqN


Don't continue to the next ones in the series. We will use them later, when I instruct you to. If you have seen them before, still just watch this one, and leave the others alone.

[lostandfound]

Hi Elad,

I listened to the video three times in the way you described. One time I was moving and the other two times I was sitting. When I was moving, I noticed the body was moving on it's own when I wasn't paying attention to it. However, as soon as I started paying attention to the movements, I started getting the sense that "I" was doing it, even though I wasn't fully conscious of everything the body was doing in those moments.

When I was sitting (with my eyes closed), I tried to pay attention to my thoughts and reactions. This was more difficult. I got the sense that my thoughts and reactions were happening "to me". I also kept trying to imagine not having a self (even though this seems ridiculous if there really isn't a self because if there isn't a self then how would my experience of the world change if it wasn't real in the first place?).

A lot of fear also came up which tended to scatter my attention. I think this was the hardest thing to "manage" was my scattering of attention. It was almost as if I couldn't maintain my attention long enough to truly investigate. I also didn't really know what I was supposed to be looking for. I think I was trying to investigate the thoughts, feelings, and reactions with more thoughts. I'm unsure of what this "seeing through" is really about. I'm not sure how to "operationalize" it.

Thank you,
JT

[Elad]

Hi JT,

Yes, it is very normal for a while to contiue to try figure out, control, etc. It's just the habitual mode. And seeing will not happen with that, it will happen purely by itself. Now, how to control control? How to figure out not to figure out? We can't, we can't stop it. So this is another thing to just notice. We just notice how we try to control, how we try to figure out... Gradually - sometimes suddenly - through the increased clarity and awareness things start to change in their own way. Good that you listened and did the exercise several times.


As for the fear, next time you feel it, sit with it and really ask what it wants to protect. Write me what it answers.

AFTER you do that, and send me what you write, listen to this video:

https://youtu.be/Ly-y6Om95hc?si=kKFK_bAhJ7GKvHBr

When you listen to it, repeat the last exercise: Just notice the reactions that come up while listening to it, and look for if there is a self that is controlling them, or they just happen. Again if there is a sense of resonance, is there a separate self that decided that, or is it just so? The same if there is a sense of aversion... Or fear... If there concentration... Or distraction... A sense of "its working"... Or "its not working"... "This makes sense to me"... "I don't know if this makes sense to me".... No matter what it is, just notice every time something happens (a thought, a feeling, an interpretation, an attitude, an action, trying something, letting go of something): Where does it come from? Is there really some agent you who decides to react like that, or it just happens as it happens, it just is as it is. Let me know what you experience.

[lostandfound]

Hi Elad,

I'm not sure what the fear is trying to protect. I've sat with it for a while. A few things have come up, but no real answer. Some "answers" include: the body, the "I" (which is just a thought when examined. I look for what's behind the thought but there is nothing there), even "fear" as if the fear is trying to protect me from the fear, which doesn't make sense. I'm not really sure.

I haven't watched the next video yet, but I'm going to start it now.

Thank you,
Thomas

[lostandfound]

It's just a thought! It's just a belief, an idea! It's not referring to anything! Hahaha! It's not "my" thoughts. It's just thoughts. They aren't "my" emotions. They are just emotions that are appearing 😂😂😂

How bizarre.

Is it really that simple? Like nothing has really changed. My thoughts are the same. There are still "I" thoughts. Is it just the realization that those thoughts don't really point to anything? They are literally thoughts about no one?

Going forward, is it just recognizing that when I'm having a thought about "me", just realizing that it's just a thought? Because I still find myself identifying with thoughts that involve a "me" but then when I realize what I'm doing, i just remind myself "oh yeah, that's just a thought"?

Thanks, Elad.

Best,
Thomas

[Elad]

It's just a thought! It's just a belief, an idea! It's not referring to anything! Hahaha! It's not "my" thoughts. It's just thoughts. They aren't "my" emotions. They are just emotions that are appearing 😂😂😂

How bizarre.

Is it really that simple? Like nothing has really changed. My thoughts are the same. There are still "I" thoughts. Is it just the realization that those thoughts don't really point to anything? They are literally thoughts about no one?

Going forward, is it just recognizing that when I'm having a thought about "me", just realizing that it's just a thought? Because I still find myself identifying with thoughts that involve a "me" but then when I realize what I'm doing, i just remind myself "oh yeah, that's just a thought"?

Thanks, Elad.

Best,
Thomas

That's it! :)

Thought's continue as always, including thoughts about self, it's just seen that they refer to nothing, that everything, including everything we conventionally call me/mine, happens spontaneously.

Please look and answer:

Is there a seer doing the seeing?
Is there a thinker doing the thinking?
Is there a feeler doing the feeling?
Is there a chooser doing the choosing?
Is there an actor doing the acting?

If there is any doubt at all, look to see in direct experience, let me know what you find!

[lostandfound]

Hi Elad,

I think I may have substituted the belief of a "self" with the belief of a "no-self".

This past week, I have lost the drive for this inquiry. I'm struggling a lot with doubt (which I struggle with a lot in general). There is also a fear that this "identity" is the most important thing in my life. "Who would I be without this 'I'"? seems to be the primary fear.

What now?

Thank you,
JT

[Elad]

Hi JT,

I think I may have substituted the belief of a "self" with the belief of a "no-self".

Yes that happens often. Good catch. Of course that is not what we are here for. We are here for your unquestionable discovery of what is true in your direct experience.

This past week, I have lost the drive for this inquiry.

What was the drive before? One of the most solid drives/motives is to actually wanna know: What do I really mean when I say I? What do I really mean when I say there is a self here, or there is no self here?

I'm struggling a lot with doubt (which I struggle with a lot in general).

Good to know. It is that way for so many.

There is also a fear that this "identity" is the most important thing in my life.

Having a functional identity is important for normal life. You will not lose that, nor anything else that supports genuiness, love, care, freedom, compassion. The only things that might be lost (or more precise: seen through and lose power) are the false illusions that create distance.

"Who would I be without this 'I'"? seems to be the primary fear.

The question is, do you mainly wanna stay with the known and the comfort in that, or do you want to give your heart and attention to fully know what is true in your innermost experience?

[lostandfound]

Hi Elad,

I've been looking into my experience and I can't find an I, yet I still have a sense of agency, etc. I know one isn't supposed to have doubt after breaking the first fetter (because supposedly the first three all fall together), but doubt is still there as is a subtle self sense.

I know that some might say I haven't broken the first fetter, given what I have shared, but for some reason I feel like I have, or at least I feel like even if I haven't, that this practice (working on fetter 1) isn't really helpful for me right now.

I'm curious what you think about moving to fetters 4 and 5? Do you assist people with breaking those fetters too and, if so, would you feel comfortable moving forward with those together given what I have shared?

Please let me know.

Thank you,
JT

[Elad]

Hey JT

I've been looking into my experience and I can't find an I, yet I still have a sense of agency, etc. I know one isn't supposed to have doubt after breaking the first fetter (because supposedly the first three all fall together), but doubt is still there as is a subtle self sense.

I would claim that without a sense of agency and self, we would not be able to communicate and function normally. The question is:

Is it believed that this SENSE of self and agency refers to solid sepatate self/agent, or rather that this sense is part of the normal flow of psychological and practical functioning in life, consisting essentially of conditioned patterns of thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions?

I know that some might say I haven't broken the first fetter, given what I have shared, but for some reason I feel like I have, or at least I feel like even if I haven't, that this practice (working on fetter 1) isn't really helpful for me right now.

Can you tell me more about this sense of what is helpful or not helpful? Just talk to me about what you are motivated for and interested in, in the most down to earth and personal way you can. Let's put aside everything others claim about a path, fetters, etc. Speak the most sincere and personal you can, about what you are looking for and are motivated for.

I'm curious what you think about moving to fetters 4 and 5? Do you assist people with breaking those fetters too and, if so, would you feel comfortable moving forward with those together given what I have shared?

Please let me know.

When I get your response to the above, I will have a clearer sense of how I feel I might be able to assist, and give you my sincere answer.

[Elad]

Hey JT

You visited in my mind. It's been quite a while. How are things moving? What reactions came up to my last post?