Trying to see through fetter 1

[lostandfound]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I'm not sure. Maybe that there isn't a permanent self or maybe that there isn't a "something" that is controlling everything or that there isn't a perceiver.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see through the first fetter and beyond. It's like to connect with a guide and also to connect with a community of like-minded people. In short, I'm looking for support to help me see the reality of who I am.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'd really like experiential "pointing" that is gentle and that tries to get around all my doubt and intellectual defenses. I'd like someone who really tries to understand where I am stuck and help me through it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a seeker for many years. I recently lived at a Buddhist retreat center where I had a kensho experience. Yet I still don't think I've seen through the first fetter. I don't have a regular spiritual practice because whenever I try to establish something, some kind of frustration or doubt comes in and knocks me off track.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Canfora]

Hello lostandfound and welcome to the LU forum. I can be your guide if that's ok with you.

Thank you for your introduction.

I don't have a regular spiritual practice because whenever I try to establish something, some kind of frustration or doubt comes in and knocks me off track.

Fortunately, this exploration isn't a spiritual practice. What we are looking for is to achieve a seeing, not a progressive learning and deepening of a specific practice. Seeing is always available, when you know how to do it. Consistency in seeing could be described as a practice but the goal with a practice is to learn how to be better at something and the seeing can't evolve, it is what it is. What can change are perceptions and thinking.

I suppose you're expecting some difficulties on the way and, if they happen, I suggest you write about them, so that we can address them.

I'd really like experiential "pointing"

Let's start here.

You can only point to what is present here/now. And there is no need to think to see. There is no need to think "sky" to see the sky. And thoughts can't change the seeing. If I think about a bright pink sky, and then I look to the sky, I will see the sky as it is at the moment - thoughts can't change the seeing.

So, I can point to what I can see here. I can point to the windows, I can point to the walls, to the floor, to the ceiling, to this body, to the computer.

I can't point to a self.

If I ask you to point - using a finger - to what surrounds you, is your experience similar to mine?

What can you find, what can you see?

What is here, what isn't here?

Can you find a self?

Is a self in sight?

Let me know how this goes for you.

Take care,
Sandra

[lostandfound]

Hi Sandra,

Yes, I would be delighted for you to be my guide. Thank you.

When I look for a self, I can't find a self. But there is still a "sense" of a self.

I've heard other guides say that the sense of self is just a thought. I think I might be seeing that now.

For example, I feel a "sense of a self" behind my eyes. I also feel a sense of a self in my body. However, now I'm wondering if the thought "this is a self" or "this is a sense of a self" is actually a layer added on later by the mind.

Thank you,
JT

[Canfora]

Hi again. Well done!

We could say there is the seeing and that the thinking may seem to overwrite the seeing in a way. Fears, expectations, justifications, stories, doubts, are thoughts (or a mix of thoughts + sensations + emotions => stories) that apparently can invalidate the seeing.

I know I'm pointing directly to the illusion, and it may take a while for you to realize this. And that's normal and ok, and to be expected. Notice how you didn't saw a self - I'm assuming you have looked around you and didn't saw a real, separate, solid, permanent thing ~~~ a self - and then thinking did its thing and doubt popped up: ok, I can't find a self, but there is this thing here that seems to be a self, and it may be a self, so a self may exist.

When this happens - this appearance of something that seems to be a self popping up in your immediate experience - have another look. What is this thing that seems to prove the existence of a real self made off? Is this a real self? Or is this a bunch of thoughts/believes/something that you've learned, running their course? What can you see going on when you look? Can you find a real self or can you find something - real or not real - that is creating the illusion that there is a self?

For example, I feel a "sense of a self" behind my eyes.

That is what I seem to feel also, if I focus my attention on that sensation. There may be many reasons why there is a sense of being a me behind the eyes. But is that sense a self behind the eyes? You can play with your imagination to check if this idea points to something that is accurate. Imagine that you are doing a head scan, a brain MRI (magnetic resonance imaging). What would you find behind the eyes? Would a little me be somewhere inside the head?

I would say thar what we call "sense of self" is one of the closest ways we can get to what we are (whatever that may be) but is this sense a separate thing, a solid self?

Let me know how this goes for you.

Take care,
S

[lostandfound]

Hi Sandra,

I'm not really sure what I'm even looking for. If I were to find the self, what would that even look or feel like?

I can't find a separate self, but still there are the thoughts "my" thoughts, "my" body, "my" feelings. I then ask, "whose thoughts?". Then there is a sense of someone saying "my thoughts" but when I look for who is saying it, I can't find them, I just feel those few clusters of sensations (behind the eyes, in my chest, in my gut) that "feels" like an I. When I put my attention there, it's just sensation, and then a stillness or blankness/emptiness. Should I stay with the emptiness?

How will I know when I haven't found myself? Hahahaha

Thank you,
JT

[Canfora]

Hi JT,

I'm not really sure what I'm even looking for. If I were to find the self, what would that even look or feel like?

Yes, absolutely. We think we know what a self is but when we try to find one, we may suden realize our thinking doesn't match our experience. We may think it’s real, but it isn’t, and thoughts can’t make it real. If a self were a real thing - like a cup - with a colour, a shape, a solid real presence, we would be capable to find it, here and now, among what is here. We would know how it looks and feels, because it would be here.

How will I know when I haven't found myself? Hahahaha

It's funny, isn't it? The need to know, the thinking, may be similar to a dog searching its tail, going round and round, never able to reach what is looking for.

I would say that when you look you can't find a self. Is this what is going on?

If it is, I suggest you start noticing what is in the way of realizing that this is it. That you are seeing there is no self. And that this no seeing means there is no self.

This is a knowing similar to realizing Santa isn't real. With Santa, when you get it, you can't go back to believing Santa is real. It's obvious that there is no Santa. With the self it's the same, which doesn't mean that "selfing" (anything that is going on that seems to be a self or the thoughts about a self, etc) stops.

What would you say is in the way of realizing without a doubt there is no self? Do you have any fears or expectations that may be in the way? What would you like to look at next?

Take care,
S

[lostandfound]

Hi Sandra,

I'm not sure what is getting in the way. I know I keep getting pulled into thought. There is also fear there.

I'm also not sure what my expectations are. Maybe I have an expectation that something will be different. But then, when I examine that thought, I realize that maybe nothing will be different. I mean, if there never was a self to begin with, then maybe my experience will be the same before and after I realize there is no self...

Maybe I'm looking for a big insight to happen. Then I ask, "who is it that is looking for a big insight to happen?"

There are also fears coming up. Fears about not being good enough. "Maybe I can't see though the self" and all the anxiety that is coming along with that. But those are just thoughts connected to body sensations or connected to other thoughts.

[Canfora]

Hi JT,

Well, yes, we are looking for a shfit to happen. A shift from "I think there isn't a self, because it's the logical thing to think" to "OMG! There is no self here!". Something like that :) Anyway, you are doing great.

Feeling fear and having expectations is normal and to be expected when you are going outside your comfort zone. If fear arises you can look behind it.

Why is the fear appearing? Maybe the fear is a protective mechanism, popping up to protect you from going forward into the unknown, like a knight in shining armor?

When you look behind the fear, can you see a self here, that is in any kind of danger? What can you find that needs rescue?

There is no need to be afraid. Like you wrote, stuff is already being experienced anyway, even if there is no self, and life will go on after the illusion is clearly seen.

Let me know if the fear keeps appearing, so that we can deal with it.

Your expectations seem like normal expections, I don't think they are in the way at the time being.

So, let's go back to basics.

When I suggest you look, what do you do? What do you think looking for a self is?

Take care,
S

[Canfora]

Hello. Will you please let me know if you don't want to continue?
Take care,
S

[lostandfound]

Hi Sandra,

Sorry for the delay in my response. I didn't think you responded for several days but I must have missed the notification.

I think the fear is about "losing control" or maybe some fear about the unknown. I notice when I'm looking and I am starting to feel myself dropping away that my mind comes in and starts creating a lot of thoughts. I'm not sure if the fear comes first or the thoughts, but eventually I start getting fixated on the thoughts and then I lose my concentration. Sometimes the thought stream and the emotions that come with that are so strong that it feels very difficult to return to the practice. But I keep trying to come back when I feel more relaxed.

You asked what I do when I look for the self. I basically just look into my present moment experience. I examine my thoughts, sensations, and any underlying beliefs that seem to be there.

Thank you for your response. I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Best,
jt

[Canfora]

Hi jt,

Sorry for the delay in my response. I didn't think you responded for several days but I must have missed the notification.

That's okay.

I think the fear is about "losing control" or maybe some fear about the unknown. I notice when I'm looking and I am starting to feel myself dropping away that my mind comes in and starts creating a lot of thoughts. I'm not sure if the fear comes first or the thoughts, but eventually I start getting fixated on the thoughts and then I lose my concentration. Sometimes the thought stream and the emotions that come with that are so strong that it feels very difficult to return to the practice. But I keep trying to come back when I feel more relaxed.

I would say that what is going on, even the fear-ness, is the practice. Look for a self there.

What is present that is afraid? Is it a you?

What is behind the fear? Can you see a self here?

If you compare the experience of seeing with the experience of thinking/feeling emotions, can you find a reason to believe the thoughts story? Can you find a prove that the thought-stories are real?

You asked what I do when I look for the self. I basically just look into my present moment experience. I examine my thoughts, sensations, and any underlying beliefs that seem to be there.

When you say "I examine", what do you mean? Can you please describe what you do to examine something?

Take care,
S

[lostandfound]

Hi Sandra,

I'm not sure what's behind the fear. There are the physical sensations of fear (tightness in the chest and the vibrational energy underneath that), but I'm not sure "who" or "what" is afraid. It's just fear or the sensations of fear. Underneath those sensations just feels like "being less".

If you compare the experience of seeing with the experience of thinking/feeling emotions, can you find a reason to believe the thoughts story? Can you find a prove that the thought-stories are real?

The thought story doesn't seem to have any reality on the physical plane. It's just happening in my head. If I drop the thought story, then just my present experience through the senses remains. Then it's back to "who is seeing?, "who is hearing?", "who is feeling?".

When you say "I examine", what do you mean? Can you please describe what you do to examine something?

I put my attention there and just try to see what's going on. What's here? What's real? What stays and what goes?(if anything).

Thanks, Sandra.

JT

[lostandfound]

Correction on my last post: I meant "beingness" not "being less"

[Canfora]

Hi JT,

I put my attention there and just try to see what's going on. What's here? What's real? What stays and what goes?(if anything).

Sorry for being picky but it seems to me that there is something here worth exploring.

When you say, "try to see what's going on", what do you mean?

Let's say I ask you to look to something. A phone, a cup, a wall.

Isn't seeing, seeing? Is really necessary to try to see something?

Take care,
S

[lostandfound]

Hi Sandra,

Sorry for being picky but it seems to me that there is something here worth exploring.

When you say, "try to see what's going on", what do you mean?

Let's say I ask you to look to something. A phone, a cup, a wall.

Isn't seeing, seeing? Is really necessary to try to see something?

I had never thought about that before. When I "try" to see something, it feels like there is effort there or that I have to make effort. I think the idea of an I is even operating in that too... It still feels like there is someone doing something, someone trying to do something. What is this about? It's like my body tenses in certain areas (my chest, parts of my face and forehead) and there is a sense of I there ...

I'm also wondering about "who" is directing the attention. Is there a doer in that? What is directing the attention?

Thank you,
JT