A hard case?

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Without thought adding a story, where is the "owner" of these sensations?

The “owner” of these sensations is something learned. So, without thoughts adding a story, they are just a happening.

Where is the entity that assumes things?

This is also something learned. We learn that this assumptions/toughts are owned by an “I”. But, here, there is no owner, just thoughts happening.

Or this is just another thoughts that hasn’t been self-corrected (an old pattern)?

Yes. It is a pattern sustained specially by doubts. This seems to be a circular pattern, in fact. Doubts sustains an I pattern, and an I pattern sustains doubts.

Can you find anything separate, watching, having, or directing experience?

Just a happening, with a bunch of descriptions and stories learned about it.

Or is there just experience, unfolding without a center?

Yes, just an experience/happening unfolding. There is a sense of a center, but when looking closer, it is not possible to find a center.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson

It is not possible to find the exact moment of a decision, because there is no discrete moment that we can call a “decision”. This is all an unfolding, followed by a story about a decision. An “I” thought that claims to have taken this decision.

This is crystal clear. Decisions were never real—just labels pasted onto what was already happening. The “I” was never in control, never orchestrating anything—just a thought appearing after the fact.
Now, what’s left to do?
If everything is simply unfolding, moment by moment, without an owner… is there anything missing?
Right now, without any reference to thought—what remains?

Yes. It is a pattern sustained specially by doubts. This seems to be a circular pattern, in fact. Doubts sustains an I pattern, and an I pattern sustains doubts.

Yes! The "I" pattern is just a feedback loop—doubts create the illusion of a self, and the illusion of a self fuels more doubts. But without “believing” those doubts, what happens?
Right now, in direct experience—what remains without the “I” pattern spinning its story?
Look! If the loop stops being fed, does anything actually disappear? Or was this all just noise over what was always clear?
What is a "doubt" made of?
Is it anything more than a thought appearing, followed by another thought questioning it?
Can you even find a doubter? Or is doubt just another pattern of thoughts, spinning without an owner?


So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Is there any doubt?
Is there any lingering sense that something has been missed, that there is still an “I” somewhere, even in the subtlest way?
Look now—is there anything left to seek? Or is it simply this, as it has always been?

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Now, what’s left to do?

There is no doer, no doing, just happening.

If everything is simply unfolding, moment by moment, without an owner… is there anything missing?

Missing to whom? “Missing” is an idea.

Right now, without any reference to thought—what remains?

Just this happening.

But without “believing” those doubts, what happens?

Without believing in them, these doubts are just thoughts passing by.

Right now, in direct experience—what remains without the “I” pattern spinning its story?

Just this happening - color, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes and thoughts happening, without a doer, an owner, or a perceiver.

If the loop stops being fed, does anything actually disappear?

No.

Or was this all just noise over what was always clear?

It is a distorsion over what is happening.

What is a "doubt" made of?

Doubts are thoughts, and as thoughts are made of mental sounds and images.

Is it anything more than a thought appearing, followed by another thought questioning it?

Just thoughts appearing.

Can you even find a doubter?

No. Just a story about a doubter.

Or is doubt just another pattern of thoughts, spinning without an owner?

Indeed.

I will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living? What changes?

When I started this inquiry, I was really lost, not knowing in what to believe, nor what to do with life. Now, everything is seeing a little different. Beliefs are just that, beliefs, and there is more trust in life, as it is unfolding.

Sometimes I can also sense a background of silence and gratitude.

What stays the same?

Everything else is pretty the same.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

Recognizing the imense amount of assumptions that we have about what is here.

Is seeking still going on?

I can see that seeking itself is a story, but there are still doubts.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address? Is there any doubt?

The sense that everything is unfolding is increasingly clear, but there are still some doubts. I can’t find an experiencer, but still there is this sense that this experience is happening to “Nelson”, or whatever is here. Also, there is this belief that “this can’t be the case”.

Is there any lingering sense that something has been missed, that there is still an “I” somewhere, even in the subtlest way?

Yes, as the experiencer.

Look now—is there anything left to seek? Or is it simply this, as it has always been?

There is a story that there is more to seek, but it is supported by these doubts.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

I would love to say YES, but not yet.

Thank you, Rali. I couldn’t have asked for a better guide.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson

I can’t find an experiencer, but still there is this sense that this experience is happening to “Nelson”, or whatever is here. Also, there is this belief that “this can’t be the case”.

I told you what to do with opposing beliefs - the dissonance can only be solved by actual LOOKING :).
There’s no experiencer to be found, and yet there’s still a lingering "sense" of something that experience is happening to. But look:
What exactly is this sense of "happening to Nelson"? Is it anything other than a thought claiming experience? What does it feel like? What is this sense made of?
A doubt appears. Ignore the thought. Right now, without that thought—what remains?
If there’s no experiencer, can there still be an experience owned by someone? Or is there just this, unfolding, with no center at all, indescribable?
Thoughts insist—that’s what they do. But look:
Who are they insisting to?
Is there a listener, a believer, an owner of these thoughts? Or are they just appearing and disappearing on their own, like echoes in an empty room?
Right now—without engaging, without resisting, without believing—what happens to the insistence?
What is doubt made of?
Is it anything more than just another thought appearing?
Does it have special weight, special truth? Or is it just another passing movement, no different from any other thought? If doubts are just thoughts questioning other thoughts—a self-looping process with no real center, what is doubting?
Is there an actual “doubter” behind them, or is thinking just happening?
Right now, without assuming a doubter—is there even a problem?

Does doubt actually do anything? Or is it just another cloud drifting through an already clear sky?
Furthermore, thoughts say many things—but do they control reality?
A thought appears: It will rain today. Reality doesn’t care. It just does what it does.
Now look: A thought appears: There is an "I"/”Nelson”/”experiencer”
Does that make it true?
Or is it just another empty prediction/statement—never actually changing what’s already happening?

There is a story that there is more to seek, but it is supported by these doubts

Yes! The only thing keeping seeking alive is a thought about doubt—just another thought pattern looping on itself.
But now, what happens if doubtful thoughts are left alone?
Does it actually stop anything? Or is it just more empty noise, trying to convince itself it's important?
Right now—without fighting, without resolving—is anything actually missing? Or is it already just this?
There is this expectation that there will be no more doubt, but that expectation is just another thought—one more story about how things “should” be.
But look: Does anything actually need doubt to disappear?
Right now, even with doubt appearing—is anything wrong?
Or is doubt just another passing cloud in a sky that was never troubled to begin with?

I would love to say YES, but not yet.

What exactly is missing?
Is there an actual gap, an actual problem, or just a thought saying "not yet"?
Look right now—what exactly is waiting for clarity? Describe this “outsider”
Can you find an actual block, or is “not yet” just another passing cloud, pretending to be important?
Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Hearing the rain on my headphones = simply sounds (hearing)

What exactly is this sense of "happening to Nelson"? Is it anything other than a thought claiming experience? What does it feel like? What is this sense made of?

This sense is a mix of sensations, especially in the eye, mental images of “Nelson”, an “I” thought claiming to be having this experience, and a lot of doubts. There seems to be something more, but I’m unable to grasp it.

A doubt appears. Ignore the thought. Right now, without that thought—what remains?

Just this happening.

If there’s no experiencer, can there still be an experience owned by someone?

I don’t know…

Or is there just this, unfolding, with no center at all, indescribable?

Yes, and thoughts say otherwise, creating theories.

There is some frustration here. Sometimes I feel like screaming :)

I spend a litlte more time just trying to stay with this, ignoring these thoughts.

I will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Who are they insisting to?

To no one, they just happen.

Is there a listener, a believer, an owner of these thoughts?

No.

Or are they just appearing and disappearing on their own, like echoes in an empty room?

Jjust appearing and disappearing on their own.

Right now—without engaging, without resisting, without believing—what happens to the insistence?

It just appears and disappears as everything else.

What is doubt made of?

Thoughts - mental images and sounds.

Is it anything more than just another thought appearing?

Just thoughts appearing.

Does it have special weight, special truth?

No.

Or is it just another passing movement, no different from any other thought?

Indeed.

If doubts are just thoughts questioning other thoughts—a self-looping process with no real center, what is doubting?

Good pointer. Nothing.

Is there an actual “doubter” behind them, or is thinking just happening?

Just happening.

Right now, without assuming a doubter—is there even a problem?

Without a doubter, doubts are like clouds passing by.

Does doubt actually do anything?

No.

Or is it just another cloud drifting through an already clear sky?

Yes.

Furthermore, thoughts say many things—but do they control reality?

Certainly not.

Does that make it true?

No.

Or is it just another empty prediction/statement—never actually changing what’s already happening?

Indeed.

I will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

What happens if doubtful thoughts are left alone?

They dissolve.

Does it actually stop anything?

No.

Or is it just more empty noise, trying to convince itself it's important?

I have some difficult with this one. Doubts sometimes are important, aren’t they? When people relied solely on their direct experience of the sun rising and setting, they believed that the sun circled the Earth. It was doubt and research that revealed their direct experience was misleading and that, in reality, the Earth circled the sun.

I’m not really doubting what you said, just expressing what’s on my mind, so you know.

Right now—without fighting, without resolving—is anything actually missing?

No.

Or is it already just this?

There is just this.

There is this expectation that there will be no more doubt, but that expectation is just another thought—one more story about how things “should” be.

I see…

Does anything actually need doubt to disappear?

No.

Right now, even with doubt appearing—is anything wrong?

Just if thoughts are “believed”.

Or is doubt just another passing cloud in a sky that was never troubled to begin with?

Indeed.

What exactly is missing?

Hmm… “What is missing” is a thought passing by with expectations.

Is there an actual gap, an actual problem, or just a thought saying "not yet"?

Just expectations passing by.

Look right now—what exactly is waiting for clarity?

I would say “Nelson” but a story can’t wait for anything.

Describe this “outsider”

It is more a doubt than a precise description. It is a doubt that “maybe I am the body having this conscious experience” - I know we already explored this, and that the body itself is just an idea, and that there is just colors, sounds, sensations, etc.

Can you find an actual block, or is “not yet” just another passing cloud, pretending to be important?

It is a thought passing by, labeled as important.

Thank you, Rali.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson
You are so close!! Just hang in there (literally) :)

This sense is a mix of sensations, especially in the eye, mental images of “Nelson”, an “I” thought claiming to be having this experience, and a lot of doubts. There seems to be something more, but I’m unable to grasp it.

Yes, the sense of "happening to Nelson" is just sensations, mental images, and thoughts claiming ownership—nothing more.
Now, look at this "something more" that feels just out of reach.
What is it made of? Can it actually be found? Or is it just another subtle assumption, a feeling that something must be there, even when nothing can be located?
Right now—without trying to grasp anything—what remains?
If there’s no experiencer, can there still be an experience owned by someone?

I don’t know…

Perfect. Stay there. Don’t reach for an answer.
Right now, without looking for certainty—is there actually a problem?
Does experience need an owner? Or is experience just happening, regardless of what thought says?
Look directly—isn’t it already just this, unfolding effortlessly?

Yes, and thoughts say otherwise, creating theories. There is some frustration here. Sometimes I feel like screaming :) I spend a litlte more time just trying to stay with this, ignoring these thoughts. I will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

Of course it is frustrating! It’s just this, centerless, effortless, indescribable—yet thoughts keep weaving theories over it. That’s their habit. But none of them touch what’s actually here.
Frustration? Let it be. Even that is just more happening, more unfolding. No one owns it.
And screaming? Why not? What would be screaming, anyway? Let it all burn through.
No need to “ignore thoughts” tomorrow—this is already here, now, and never left.
Good. Stay here. No escape.
Notice the sheer rawness of this frustration—not the story, not the label "frustration," but the physical sensation of it. That heaviness in the chest, the contraction—what is it, really? What is there before thought turns it into "frustration"? Drop every single explanation. "I need to solve this", “I need to awaken and it’s not happening”, "It can't be just that, there should be more in how it feels"—those are just noise, aren't they? Just more thoughts appearing and being believed. But the sensation itself—does it say anything?
Now, go deeper. Without trying to get rid of it, without trying to resolve it—what is it like to be completely consumed by this sensation? Make it bigger-enlarge it to fill up the room. Let yourself drown in it. If control is an illusion, if the belief in control is what fuels this grasping, then what happens when you completely let go? Not pretend to let go, not "watch it," but actually surrender to the absolute helplessness of it all?
No escape. No "working through it, trying to change it." No labels. No control. Just this
There’s no one there, just the unfolding of what was always inevitable.

I have some difficult with this one. Doubts sometimes are important, aren’t they? When people relied solely on their direct experience of the sun rising and setting, they believed that the sun circled the Earth. It was doubt and research that revealed their direct experience was misleading and that, in reality, the Earth circled the sun. I’m not really doubting what you said, just expressing what’s on my mind, so you know.

That’s good—this isn’t about blind acceptance. It’s about seeing clearly.
Doubt can be useful when it drives investigation. But what’s happening right now? Is doubt appearing as an active inquiry, or is it more like a subtle hesitation, a reflex trying to re-establish a sense of stability?
Because look—when people believed the sun circled the Earth, was it direct experience that misled them? Or was it the interpretation of experience? The assumption that what appears a certain way must be a certain way?
Direct experience never said, “The sun circles the Earth.” Thought did. What are "Sun" and "Earth" in DE anyway?
Right now, what is direct experience actually saying about choice and control?
Without referring to thought, can you find anything being controlled?

Look at “research” in real time.
A question arises. Then—without choosing—attention moves toward information. Thoughts compare, analyse, connect ideas. Insights appear.
Where in that sequence did “you” do anything? Did you choose which thoughts would arise, which connections would be made, which insights would click?
Or did it all simply happen, unfolding moment by moment, just like breathing, just like the beating of the heart?
If research is just this automatic unfolding, where is the researcher?
Is doubt yours and is it your responsibility to resolve?

It is more a doubt than a precise description. It is a doubt that “maybe I am the body having this conscious experience” - I know we already explored this, and that the body itself is just an idea, and that there is just colors, sounds, sensations, etc.

Good—this doubt is just another ripple in the system, another thought appearing. But look:
Right now, does the experience of a body confirm a separate “I”? Or is that just a thought about the body, looping back in to claim ownership?
Check in real-time:
Colors appear. Do they belong to anyone?
Sensations arise. Is there a "you" inside them, or are they just happening?
Sounds, thoughts, movements— are any of them actually proving an “I” that has them?
If the body itself is just a collection of sensations and labels, then where exactly is the one having the experience? Can it be found? Or is it just another assumption sneaking in?
Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

You are so close!! Just hang in there (literally) :)

:)

What is it made of?

Thoughts and sensations.

Can it actually be found?

No.

Or is it just another subtle assumption, a feeling that something must be there, even when nothing can be located?

Yes.

Right now—without trying to grasp anything—what remains?

Here, there are only colors, sounds, sensations, smells, tastes and thoughts happening. There is no center observing everything or performing actions. There is just this mysterious happening.

If there’s no experiencer, can there still be an experience owned by someone?

I don’t known.

Right now, without looking for certainty—is there actually a problem?

No. There is a relief.

Does experience need an owner?

Probably not. Ownership is a story, at least here, is a story.

Or is experience just happening, regardless of what thought says?

Yes.

Look directly—isn’t it already just this, unfolding effortlessly?

Yes.

I will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

What would be screaming, anyway?

No one.

Notice the sheer rawness of this frustration—not the story, not the label "frustration," but the physical sensation of it. That heaviness in the chest, the contraction—what is it, really?

Just sensations.

Drop every single explanation. "I need to solve this", “I need to awaken and it’s not happening”, "It can't be just that, there should be more in how it feels"—those are just noise, aren't they?

Yes…

But the sensation itself—does it say anything?

No.

Now, go deeper. Without trying to get rid of it, without trying to resolve it—what is it like to be completely consumed by this sensation?

It is a relief, in fact.

If control is an illusion, if the belief in control is what fuels this grasping, then what happens when you completely let go? Not pretend to let go, not "watch it," but actually surrender to the absolute helplessness of it all?

If control is an illusion, if the belief in control is what fuels this grasping, then what happens when you completely let go? Not pretend to let go, not "watch it," but actually surrender to the absolute helplessness of it all?

I will explore this one a little more.

It is too late here, I will continue tomorrow. Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

But what’s happening right now? Is doubt appearing as an active inquiry, or is it more like a subtle hesitation, a reflex trying to re-establish a sense of stability?

It is more like the second - a resistance.

Because look—when people believed the sun circled the Earth, was it direct experience that misled them? Or was it the interpretation of experience?

Great point. It was interpretation, indeed.

The assumption that what appears a certain way must be a certain way?

No.

What are "Sun" and "Earth" in DE anyway?

They are labels to colors, sensations, and other thoughts.

Right now, what is direct experience actually saying about choice and control?

That there is none. Also, there is no chooser, nor controller.

Without referring to thought, can you find anything being controlled?

No. Just happenings.

Where in that sequence did “you” do anything? Did you choose which thoughts would arise, which connections would be made, which insights would click?

No.

Or did it all simply happen, unfolding moment by moment, just like breathing, just like the beating of the heart?

Yes.

If research is just this automatic unfolding, where is the researcher?

There is no doer of the research.

Is doubt yours and is it your responsibility to resolve?

It is believed that it is mine, in the same way that it is believed that this is my experience, but these are beliefs. In DE, these are just thoughts passing by.

Right now, does the experience of a body confirm a separate “I”?

Good point. No.

Or is that just a thought about the body, looping back in to claim ownership?

Indeed.

Do they belong to anyone?

No.

Sensations arise. Is there a "you" inside them, or are they just happening?

Just happening.

Sounds, thoughts, movements— are any of them actually proving an “I” that has them?

No…

If the body itself is just a collection of sensations and labels, then where exactly is the one having the experience?

Great point. It is just an idea.

Can it be found?

No.

Or is it just another assumption sneaking in?

Yes…

Thank you, Rali.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson

It is more like the second - a resistance.

Yes—resistance. A reflex trying to pull back to familiar ground.
But look:
What is resisting?
Is there actually a you doing the resisting, or is resistance just another arising—just like thought, sensation, movement?
If resistance is just happening, without a resistor, then what is left to hold onto? What happens when even resistance is allowed to unfold, without needing to fight it?

Look at the sensation labelled “resistance”. Is there anything resisting in it or is it just a thought about resistance that comes along?

It is believed that it is mine, in the same way that it is believed that this is my experience, but these are beliefs. In DE, these are just thoughts passing by.

Yes! In direct experience, doubt is just another passing thought—like a cloud moving across the sky.
If doubt isn’t yours or anyone’s, if it’s just appearing like everything else, then what happens when there’s no effort to resolve it?
Can doubt just be what it is, without needing to be claimed or fought against? What remains when even the need for resolution drops away?
Thoughts insist there is a self but it cannot be found in DE. Thought insists—but insisting doesn’t make it real.
In direct experience (DE), where is this "self"?
Is it in sensations? No, just raw feeling.
Is it in thoughts? No, just words appearing.
Is it in awareness? No boundary, no center—just this.
Thought keeps spinning the idea of a self, but it never actually appears in experience.
So—if the self cannot be found, was it ever there at all? Or just a story believed for no reason?

Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

I had problems with my telephone and internet provider yesterday night and couldn’t post.

What is resisting?

When trying to find what is resisting, there is just silence.

Colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes and thoughts can’t resist.

There is a belief that what is living this experience is what is resisting, but it is not possible to find anything living this experience, nor an “I” seems to be necessary for these perceptions to happen.

I can’t find anything resisting, just resistance happening.

Is there actually a you doing the resisting, or is resistance just another arising—just like thought, sensation, movement?

Just another arising.

If resistance is just happening, without a resistor, then what is left to hold onto?

Nothing.

What happens when even resistance is allowed to unfold, without needing to fight it?

There is some relief. Also there is always this feeling that “something more needs to be done”. When letting go of that, there is also some relief.

Is there anything resisting in it or is it just a thought about resistance that comes along?

Just a story.

I will continue tomorrow. Thank you for still being here.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

If doubt isn’t yours or anyone’s, if it’s just appearing like everything else, then what happens when there’s no effort to resolve it?

There is some relief.

Can doubt just be what it is, without needing to be claimed or fought against?

Yes. It can be just thoughts passing by.

What remains when even the need for resolution drops away?

Just this happening.

In direct experience (DE), where is this "self"?
Is it in sensations? No, just raw feeling.
Is it in thoughts? No, just words appearing.
Is it in awareness? No boundary, no center—just this.

Yes.

So—if the self cannot be found, was it ever there at all?

No.

Or just a story believed for no reason?

Yes, it is a recurrent story here.

I can see that things are getting clearer here. Thank you, Rali.

Best,
Nelson