One love

[cormacFitz]

Hey Marius,
the last couple of days have been going better in terms of my non dual awareness or clear seeing,
It has not been a dramatic shift however when I think back there was very little attachment to thoughts.
I also think that recognizing that I was becoming attached to a kind of blissful non dual state. I recognize that this was because of my conditioning. I am also seeing the difference between just dwelling in this state and taking it as my goal or the enlightened state that I am seeking.
Self referential thoughts still arise but they go quite quickly and don't tend to have an emotional pull. there is some degree of seeing them clearly as just thoughts as soon as they arise.
I have been dealing with a painful eye injury so I have had lots to work with. just allowing the pain to be there. Then allowing the thoughts about the pain to be there . While also recognizing them as just thoughts.
So I guess my awakening will just be a gradual process no light bulb moments.I'm sure that the self referential thoughts will get less and less prevalent because they get less traction .
SO I think I am good with dealing adversity. My fear is that when I start awakening it will just shift my ego to believing my own bullshit. i.e. that I am awakening. When in fact no one is awakening.I see this as part of my conditioning too in that I have been pursuing this goal for so long and so ardently. So I am not getting annoyed about it but still the tendency is there to want to achieve a state of permanent clear seeing. Its been my life goal for 25 years.

it sounds a little like you might be trying to bypass the feeling of frustration by saying there is no one here to be frustrated.

Yes that may have been true- I have been using the spiritual bypass for many years. I used to think that meditation gave me the superpower of being able to stop my suffering. I am aware that it is just reinforcing a duality. So that Cormac can exist in a frustrated and a non frustrated state/ When in fact Cormac is just a label that doesn't really exist at all.

Do you recognize that however one interprets other peoples experience is going to be wrong?

Yes I recognize this. I see that my interpretation will always be biased. The more important the event I am interpreting is the more biased my interpretation will be too. It does kind of conflict with my day job though in that my job is to interpret other peoples experiences and give them my opinion! However I am noticing that can be done without identifying with the thoughts. Its almost like I need to have faith in the judgments that arise without getting into overthinking things. I mean without taking ownership of the thoughts thereby creating a concern that I might be wrong/ missing something.
When in fact there is no Cormac that is right or wrong and there is no other personality who is waiting for my opinion.
I think that I am finding this- the dropping of labeling hard because I intentionally created distance between me and the people who are suffering so that I wouldn't have to suffer for them. i.e. labeling it as their drama gave me a barrier from having to suffer too. So I guess its going to tale a while for this to fade too.

by interpreting and comparing it to what is experienced there will set up an expectation of looking for something else than what is directly experienced in the present moment?

Yes I see how this draws me away from the present moment.
I will try to stay with the present moment.
Also I will attend one of the zoom seminars next weekend.

[Sonofnature]

Hey Cormac.

Here are the checkpoint questions. Please really take your time with these. There is no hurry to get back to me. :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

Warmly,
Marius

[cormacFitz]

) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No its just thoughts. They come and go . When I look for them later they are gone. So they were never really there- well the thoughts did arise but the Identification with them was just a thought about a thought. Or more accurately a pattern of thinking that I had been believing to be me. However in watching this unfold lately it is very clear that this pattern of thinking ( self referential thoughts) is based on my conditioning.Therefor it is biased and unlikely to be true or certainly not fully true. I note that it is very inconsistent and sometimes contradictory and mostly unhelpful. It leads to reactivity sometimes.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is that there is a quintessential me that is both orchestrating my life and accumulating a knowledge from past experiences. It starts with a thought that occurs spontaneously. However very soon after there is an attachment of sense of me or self to the thought. From here a character (me) is referenced and story begins in my mind. My experience now is that I recognize when I am creating a narrative about myself quite quickly. Then I let go of the narrative. Then I rest in what is present.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When I see how this false identification is happening it feels quite freeing. There is a sense of calmness and presence. Perhaps a more expansive awareness is noted or more like a feeling of vastness. Also a sense of OKedness is present. Like everything is going to work out fine. UNtil the next thought comes and I repeat the process.
I think the big difference is that now that I have looked hard at the thoughts and noted that the self referential thoughts are also just thoughts. They come and they go just like any experience therefor they cannot be anything permanent. Therefor there is no permanent sense of self. Its all just like winds blowing through me.
In terms of the last few days - well I sustained nasty eye injury and now its infected. Its quite sore. There is a tendency to catastrophise. However I soon recognize that these are just thoughts and that the underlying emotion is really just sensations. The pain is the same but the suffering is less. Admittedly sometimes it has been more challenging to remember to apply the new programming but I will do so in under a minute everytime. It is normal I guess for one to worry about something like this and I am not letting the fact that I do not rest in a permanent state non dual awareness/ bliss/ annata bother me either. There are thoughts that my narratives about catastrophising the issue implies that I have not achieved a permanent state of seeing clearly my true nature ( annata). However I soon recognize these as just the next layer of thinking and its gone again for a while.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after

I think early on in our conversation I revealed that I was resting a sense of loving presence. I had been trying to do this for years. I was identifying myself with this state. You pointed out that was merely another thought. IT is taking me a while to shed this concept as I had really put a lot of effort into it. i see now that this state of loving awareness exists but it is not mine. There is no mine/ me/I its just labels and its very fickle.
No there was no moment of a distinct shift. AS I said to you before I think its unfolding gradually. THis has been a challenge for me as every other account I read here and elsewhere over the years there was a moment of absolute clarity and very notable shift in perception for people. BUt like we said yesterday my experience is as its is. Wanting it to be otherwise is counter productive. Still I also recognize that my conditioning is that I "should" be having some sort of shift in awareness/ perception. I understand that seeing my thoughts and feelings as just such is a shift of some sort and not identifying with them as much is the path. Like you said this new programming will gradually change the nature of my perception and my thinking patterns.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.[/quote
]
This bit was the most surprising discovery for me. I assumed a sense of self/ controller existed until I did the hand turning experiment and looked closely. THere can be a decision to turn the hand however the action of turning it requires no sense of self. It just happens, it also just stops without me orchestrating this. So even in more complex decisions such as should I go to work today with one eye there is a thought process that seems appropriate like I cannot drive but the actual decision is not rooted in this sense of I. I don't feel liie there is a me that has made a decision. However the right decision was made and Here I am at home.Admittedly I have to search for the decision maker to note that it is not there. THis is due to my conditioning over the previous 40 years. I have been conditioned to believe that I am making decisions based on thoughts but in fact there are thoughts arising and decision happening there is just no real me orchestrating things
To me intention is like a decision to do or not do something. It exist and it has effects however again there is no me that is intending to do something. there are merely thoughts about what intentions would suit a fictional character I have in my mind based on circumstances that are being interpreted by a biased thought process. Ludicrous really, I'm surprised I made it this far! I guess at the root of a lot of these thought processes is the need to survive and to fit in with my tribe . So I shouldn't demonise my conditioning.
Free will eh... AS eluded to a few times above there is no such thing for me due to having a biased thought process and a selective memory. It seems that I maybe accumulate 10% of my thoughts as being valid/ relevant because they support my ego or are likely to help me to thrive in society. Any scientist would ask about the rest of the data...I feel it is discarded and forgotten very quickly. Therefor the idea that I can make a decision that is free from external influences is impossible.
choice and control... I can choose to do something like go to a movie. However my choice of movie and even of movie theatre will be based on prior experiences and future expectations neither of which are certain. Also I would only choose to go to a movie if this was something which I felt suited my fictional character. For example if I felt I was the type of guy who was afraid of the dark then I wouldn't be choosing to go to a movie int he first place. Which would be fair enough too its just that I would have actually chosen not to go base don prior bad experiences without fully knowing what this next movie experience would bring.
control is an interesting one. THe ultimate reality is that there is no one to control what is happening. I think we like to believe that there are things we can control . We recognize that there are many variables but feel that we can control our response. However this response is actually being determined by our condtioning. For example now I am worried that I will loose all the stuff I have typed as this happened before. So a fear of loosing my answers exists. It is there due to past events. I could try saving the draft but this is how I lost it the last time. So that's a narrative that is arising. However given that there is no me that decides to save my long winded essay( that I am enforcing you to read) then there is really no one in control however a decision has been made to continue typing and to make sure the cat doesn't jump on my laptop. Not my decision just a decision. The cats behavior is obviously out of my control however my behavior is more subtly not being controlled by by anyone either. This is because the thoughts are just arising and then the illusion of a controller is arising. The experience of the worry over a feline sabotage is real the response (putting him off the coach) is real but the perception that a prevailing sense of self acted in accordance with the right intentions is not. Who knows another time the decision to just feed him may have arisen and I would still consider this to be the right action made by myself. Both actions can be experienced as being considered by a me. However when I look for this me there is nothing prevailing only the typing continues and the thoughts fall away.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I may have already touched on this above. THings happen due to complex circumstances, I cannot think of anything that is just happening independently of the circumstances it is in. All is subject to laws of physics and nature. More to the point all things that happen that we are aware of are perceived by the mind. THis is though the medium of thoughts and sensations and emotions. What happens is our mind becomes aware of these sensations and then a thought arises. Often this will trigger a succession of thoughts that involve a sense of self. This self didn't create the thought/sensation or emotion. Also these thoughts sensation and emotions can be experienced without a sense of self. When this happens we only experience the first level of thee sensations like there is a pain in the right eye. Or more accurately there is a sharp burning feeling in the eye.
There may be a decision that this needs to be relieved somewhat and there be action taken such as cold flannel on the eye. The pain may indeed settle a bit after this. The thing is that the I that perceived the pain has already moved on to identify with the next problem like the water spilling down the face followed by a decision to get a dry flannel. Then in a few minutes when I look back at this event there is no attachment to any of the actions. They happened but there is no sense of I that is at the root of the actions/sensations. It is merely just thoughts about a sense of I that made moves to alleviate a discomfort.
THese thoughts will be long gone tomorrow and no doubt the sens of I will be trying to attach to the next dilemma. Seemingly it cannot deal with all dilemmas at once.It does need a dilemma/ thought to exist. Also these thoughts and dilemmas are arising independently of this sense of I and are not therefor not controlled by it. Finally the accumulation of these thoughts/ dilemmas into our memory only happens if they are deemed to be relevant to our sense of self/ego and the majority are discarded for ever.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

not to be a smart ass but this seems like a bit of a trick question. I did think about it... before I would have said things like my family's well being- you know paying the bills and nurturing children. However when I look at this through my new lens I see that there is no I who is responsible for anything. It is all just thoughts then thoughts on thoughts on thoughts. It can be anxiety driving. Now I experience this as a mere concept that has no where to land. To be honest there may be a thought of my responsibilities but there is also a deeper sense that this is not true. If there wasn't then I would apply my no dual lens and discover that this is a false sense of responsibility.
So I have decided to get on my motorbike and ride into the sunset... joking I know that my conditioning will not allow me to make decisions such as this. Otherwise I would have been long gone :). Its no shame though I have been conditioned to love my family is all.

8) Anything to add?

WEll actually the process of me answering these questions has really solidified my confidence that I have actually progressed somewhat towards this gateless gate. I know that my thought processes will be the last to accept that I am seeing clearly so forcing me to think about these complex issues has really helped me. Right now I'm feeling light and free. maybe I should answer them every day! just jokes ..
. Sorry the answers are so long winded hopefully its not total drivvle

[Sonofnature]

Hi Cormac.

I think answering these questions were a good practice for you and I suspect something more has clarified as a result.

One thing that sticks out is that there is quite a bit of intellectualization going on so I want you to take another look at the questions and answer each one from more of an experiential level. Keep your responses concise and try to relate your experience as authentic as possible.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

[cormacFitz]

hey Marius
true it was an intellectual response.
I'll try again

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

NO the sense of self is just a thought pattern. The "me" is a fictional character that is somehow accumulating experiences and planning everything. When I look for a source of this "I thought" it falls away and nothing remains other then what is being experienced.
There was never a "me" in the center of the story. This "me" is not real and never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

THe illusion is that there is a Cormac at the center of things that is experiencing sensations, emotions and thoughts. The illusion is that all these thoughts about sensations or mostly thoughts about thoughts are being done by some part of me that is my quintessential essence. The illusion is also that this 'me " is essential for living a life.
When I look at the process a thought arises and then it is identified as a thought that I have had that is relevant to me and my journey/ story. It can then lead to a cascade of thoughts that arise due to my conditioning or my ego. The cascade of thoughts usually give me the sense that a me is in control or at least is participating in the experience.
Now I see that these are just more thoughts and they stop happening. Then I rest in a sort of expansive awareness . This has a pleasant feeling, like a feeling of relaxation or calmness. Things are then witnessed ,though the noting of experiences is no longer attributed to a "me". Things just are the way they are. This feels deeply reassuring. There is a palpable release of tension from somewhere inside.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Before I was seeing the thoughts arise then thinking that I was generating the thoughts and the subsequent planning was being done by me. Intellectually I understood that is was an illusion but I didn't look closely enough to see how it was being played out.
In the past few days THese thoughts of me or I are still arising but quickly this is being recognized as a false narrative and they are being let go of. Consequently negative emotions are less prevalent. These negative emotions can still arise but I am less reactive. I just let these emotions be there and recognize any following thought patterns as being just thoughts .
I could go on about all the situations I have done this but the list is growing . Also I am noting that when these negative emotions are dealt with this way there is a tendency to attribute it to the work I am doing with you in seeing clearly. To consider myself to be a good student or to be progressing along the right path. I then let go of this narrative in the same way.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

THe last bit that had an impact on my perception of the nature of self was probably watching closely what happened with intent and decision. Since then there has been less planning going on. I am more at ease with whatever situation I am in. There is still some background thoughts/narrative but I am not taking them as seriously. consequently they are less prevalent.
I don't think there was a massive change in one moment that has left my perception permanently changed. I think it has been a gradual process with lots of lessons along the way.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

This was an interesting experiment for me. I was on the beach and thought I would think about some of these questions. I was lying down with the intent to get up and go for a swim. A decision was made in my mind that I would go for a swim when the clouds blew over. However I noticed that at one point I just got up and went swimming. So there can be a decision but the action is not controlled by the decision. the action seems to just happen. After this I was noting that the same process for all actions. Like do I catch this wave or the next- it didn't matter If I decided yes as often I would wait or go independently of the decision. Once I clearly saw that for all the planning in the world the right action would arise spontaneously I have sort of let go of some of the planning . I guess it just isn't taken as seriously.
Free will is as I said before an illusion things just happen whether they are willed to happen or not.
Choice is a mind game that happens when several options are available. I am starting to feel that choosing mentally which action to take is pointless.
Control is what the "sense of I" wants me to think I have. However its is a false belief.
Mostly because actions just happen and there is no I in the first place.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things just happen. there can also be a cognitive process involved around events. I think all things that are happening are interdependent to some degree. But I find its better to just allow them to flow or to be there. Including any cognitive processes.
To use an analogy- If you have ever put a car into cruise control the accelerator slips out of your control and starts moving on its own. THis can be unsettling unless you trust the mechanism. So I think I am starting to trust the cruise control now. There is no longer any need to feel like I control the direction I am travelling in. This is because I now recognize that things will just move along as they are supposed to. That actually I wasn't controlling anything anyway. There is no me in the drivers seat. perhaps the car is self driving too. I'm learning to trust the process.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I do like my original answer for this one. however on an experiental level to be honest when I think of things that I used to feel responsible for there is nothing coming up- no stress, no thoughts, nothing. Like I know I have to pick my son up after school to take him to football- so I am responsible for getting him to football with the right gear and at the right time with the right amount of food in his belly. But I strangely don't feel any responsibility for this, its just something that is going to happen. This is an easy one though as it will happen soon when I think of other heavier responsibilities I feel nothing.
Its strange as a big part of my upbringing was being taught to be responsible for my own actions. I used to really try to live by this ideal. Now I am finding it hard to see any responsibilities as my own.

8) Anything to add?

I spent the last 3 days trying to feel into these questions. Things are still evolving . So when I read the first question I realized that what Vince said in the zoom group today does resonated with how I am experiencing things. He gave an analogy of wanting to eat a watermelon then checking if it was in the fridge. Finding it was not there. So if the thought comes up again that I want watermelon I just know its not in the fridge. I don't need to open the fridge again.However there is still a desire for watermelons.In other words there is still a narrative going on about me but I know there is no me as I think it to be. I am not getting annoyed that the thoughts about myself persist and I am trying to stay with what is real- sensations.

[Sonofnature]

Hey Cormac

Happy to recieve your responses. These felt more clear. 😊

So what happens now is that I give the other guides the opportunity to read your responses and ask any clarifying questions.

Before I do, I would like to ask you if there is anything more you would like to explore?

[cormacFitz]

I am wondering about mental chatter
I do still see it as just thoughts . A lot of it is just rehearsing things to say or to hate on should have said . As well as planning. I don’t expect this to stop.
I recognize there is no me controlling these thoughts. It’s probably just old patterns of thinking that are deeply ingrained . Today it doesn’t bother me . TBH yesterday I was getting a bit annoyed but also finding the whole pattern of thinking to be ridiculous. I could see that the thoughts were occurring spontaneously . I didn’t feel that I owned them. They lead to sensing doubt that I was seeing clearly though. But like I said today it’s all good and I feel that sense that things are unfolding as they should. Or like a sense of everything is ok just as it is.
Is it normal to flick in and out of this clear seeing?

[Sonofnature]

Hey Cormac.

Yes. Doubts are a common thing. Seeing through self, so to speak, doesn't mean that thoughts stop, but the relationship to them has changed.

The main thing is that there is a noticing that identification with thought has happened. Over time, this will likely happen less frequently as thoughts become less interesting.

Coming to Vince's meetings and staying in touch with the community can also help with "integration" as well as exploring emotional triggers that hooks us into thought. :)

This is not the end. This is more like the beginning.

[Sonofnature]

Hello again Cormac.

The other guides have reviewed your responses and has no further questions.

Soon you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. Your username will change from green to blue and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

The experience in the past couple of weeks is just the beginning of exploring. It will also be the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs and habitual patterns of thought. This can be an emotional process. If you have any questions or any hiccups, you are welcome to drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

It has been a pleasure to walk beside you here. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation. You have my email if you’d like to stay in touch and perhaps I will see you in Vince's meetings. :)

It was a pleasure exploring with you. 🙏🏼

Warmly,
Marius

[cormacFitz]

Thanks for your guidance mate . I’ll see you on zoom.