One love

[cormacFitz]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The our impssion of our selves / ego is a construct .
It is subject to our conditioning- it is filtered by our experiences ,beliefs, trauma, upbringing, education , media etc. therefore is not true.
I also have a sense that when I look for it it is not there . I have done so and find only spacious awareness and possibly a sense of love of life

What are you looking for at LU?
The end of delusion .
Less suffering
Living in a non dual reality
I currently only have a conceptual knowledge in my day to day life . However I do find this helpful at times. I want this non dual self awareness to be my lived experience

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I suppose guidance on dealing with the fetters that obscure my view of reality .
I have never met anyone who is awakened so that would be cool.
In fact I have never really had much formal teaching. I am obsessed with this journey for self knowledge though . Always reading and listening to podcasts.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have a lot of experience with various meditations , yoga, chi gong. I meditate daily . I have done a few retreats
I have practiced self inquiry as per Ramana mahirishi - an Indian sage and enlightened being.
I have been seeking truth my whole life- tried many paths

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Sonofnature]

Hi!

My name is Marius and I’m glad to connect with you and explore this inquiry together. Before we get started, I’d like to check in about a few things:

1. Please take some time to carefully read through the following LU documents. Let me know if you have any questions, doubts, or reservations about them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

2. I work best with people who are motivated and willing to engage consistently—answering questions and reflecting on exercises almost daily until we complete the process. Flexibility is key, and exceptions for vacations or other priorities are perfectly okay. What matters most is a shared commitment to staying engaged.

3. Honesty is crucial in this process. I encourage you to be as open and truthful as possible when answering questions, even if it feels uncomfortable at times. This level of honesty is what allows real breakthroughs to happen.

Additionally, I’d like to explore your expectations of "awakening" or "enlightenment" more deeply. Please answer the following questions as honestly and openly as you can:

How do you believe life will change if enlightenment is realized?
How do you think you will change?
What will be different?
What do you feel is missing right now?

Looking forward to hearing from you!

[cormacFitz]

hey Marius, thanks for getting back to me

in regards to your points and questions
1 I have just read those documents
2 I would be able to message you daily . I am a very dedicated practitioner.
Couple of issues- I live in New Zealand so time differences are usually big. I also work full time and have 4 children. However I will do my best to respond promptly. Also I am slow at typing and terrible at spelling!
3 honesty eh.... I'll try


questions - 1 . I think that I will have a completely different perspective on life. I am imagine that I will be identifying myself as a witness to events that flow through my life.As opposed to feeling like the one who owns these experiences/ controls things. I think I will become less attached to things. I expect to find a broader more well established sense of common humanity. I expect that I will see the flow of thoughts and emotions and feelings as just that and not become attached them. I expect that I will be less frustrated when things don't go my way. I think maybe my future actions will be more in line with who my true self really is. In that maybe life will flow easier for me.
2/ I am hoping to have a constant sense of who I really am in every moment of my life. To see who I am in perspective in every moment effortlessly. For example someone may say something to offend me but the words will have no where to land as I won't have a me to defend. I will be seeing them and myself as the same thing- consciousness manifesting in human form.
3/besides my perspective changing I am not sure. As the zehn monk said before enlightenment chop wood carry water after enlightenment chop wood carry water. I expect to continue to provide for my family, keep connecting with my friends and looking after my health and finances. So yeh not really sure what will be different. Maybe I will be less influenced by aversion and desires.
4/I intellectually believe that I am pure loving consciousness in human form . I have been reminding myself this frequently of late through self inquiry. When I do this I feel a sens of relief and calmness. However I have to rinse and repeat all day.


Can I ask is this seen by anyone other then you? Or is it a public forum?
Also maybe tell me a bit about yourself- where are you from? how old are you? if you don't mind
ciao
Cormac

[Sonofnature]

Hi Cormac!

Couple of issues- I live in New Zealand so time differences are usually big. I also work full time and have 4 children. However I will do my best to respond promptly. Also I am slow at typing and terrible at spelling!

No worries about the time differences. The main thing is keeping up some momentum in our exploration together. :)

Can I ask is this seen by anyone other then you? Or is it a public forum?

The Gate forum is completely public, which means anyone can read the threads without needing to log in. For privacy, if you wish to share anything personal, I recommend sending me a private message via your LU profile. Once we've addressed any sensitive issues, we can continue discussions on the forum.

It looks like your username is your full name. If you'd like to change it to something more private, please contact the forum admin as soon as possible using this contact form: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/contact/
Changing the username is still possible, but it requires manually updating each of your posts, so the sooner it’s done, the better.

Also maybe tell me a bit about yourself- where are you from? how old are you?

I am a 38-year-old male and I reside in Norway.

Please watch this little clip about using the quote function here on the forum, to make our communication easier:
https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=SAxVKYRJj74Z9ig0

Let's get started.

Before we address your expectations about "enlightenment" or "awakening", I would like you to take a moment to quietly say or reflect on this phrase several times: There is no separate self—there never was, and there never will be.

After each repetition, pause and notice. What arises? Sensations, emotions, thoughts, subtle movements—simply observe. Let it all come up without judgment, effort, or expectation.

Write down what you notice, uncensored and unfiltered. There’s no right or wrong here—only what’s already happening, what’s naturally present. Trust in the process and allow everything to unfold as it is. What is effortlessly noticed is what matters most.

[cormacFitz]

OK I gave that a go
I used it as a sort of a mantra while meditating.
When I dropped the phrase in I felt that whatever thought was present just fell away. I was left with a sense of calmness. Also it felt spacious. There was an awareness present but it felt like a different awareness that wasn't concerned with any narratives or conceptions of what was happening. Just pure awareness I guess. There was also a pleasant feeling in my head and neck like a tingling sensation. There was a warm feeling in my heart at times. However I am not sure if I fabricated these feelings by putting myself into this meditative state. I often feel this way meditating. It feels like a kind of universal joy at the wonder of the passing of thoughts and emotions and events that spring to mind. that maybe things are flowing along and it doesn't really matter what the outcome is . Like its all part of a beautiful journey. I also sometimes feel like this same awareness is witnessing all journeys. I am trying not to intellectualize the experience. there is this felt sens though The feeling gets stronger if I intentionally bring it to mind. Thoughts can arise while at the same time I can maintain this detached state of awareness. However sometimes thoughts will pull me away from this state. They fall away again as soon as I say the mantra. I think I had more thoughts then normal today because I was planning what to write! I guess that's normal. it just gives me more to work with
I'll keep playing with this today

[Sonofnature]

Great looking. I invite you to bring that same looking into everyday life, so to speak. Looking and paying attention to your direct experience, rather than the content of thoughts.

Do I understand you correctly that the idea of a "me" or a "self" or a "Cormac" not existing, evokes a sense of calmness?

Also, there was one point I forgot to mention in my initial response. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation, unless it is LU based material. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

For this process to work you have to be focused on your DE (direct experience) of what's actually happening and describe your findings without relying on thought, memory, or imagination. Long-winded analytical and/or philosophical answers are best avoided as they can hinder 'seeing'.

I also sometimes feel like this same awareness is witnessing all journeys.

If we take a closer look at this statement. You say you "feel" like this same awareness is witnessing all journeys, but how can a feeling contain that information? Is that not thoughts assigning meaning to a sensation? I only point this out, as it will be helpful to become aware of our tendency to attach labels and stories to sensations during our exploration together.

There was a lot we can take a closer look at in your answers about your expectations of "enlightenment" or "awakening".

Let me start by saying that these are all common expectations. I invite you to let go of all imaginations and expectations how this will be experienced. Whatever you imagine it will be like will be inaccurate and will only be an obstacle to seeing clearly, as it is.

Let's start with your response to the first question.

I am imagine that I will be identifying myself as a witness to events that flow through my life. As opposed to feeling like the one who owns these experiences/ controls things.

Who is this "I" you imagine will be identifying as a witness? Can you find this "I" in your direct experience? If you can, can you give a description of your experience of this "I"?

[cormacFitz]

Hey Marius ,
Ok I will try to leave out all the dogma and other preconceptions. It will probably a matter of noticing a process that is already happening . I’ll give it my focus today.

Do I understand you correctly that the idea of a "me" or a "self" or a "Cormac" not existing, evokes a sense of calmness?

Yes a sense of calmness is the predominant feature. I can feel tension slipping away. It’s like a letting go mentally of clinging that is happening . Clinging to a false sense of self. This last sentence is obviously a mental construct though. Hmm . It’s a fine line… I’ll try not to interpret the sensation.

Who is this "I" you imagine will be identifying as a witness? Can you find this "I" in your direct experience? If you can, can you give a description of your experience of this "I"?

There is no I that I can find. I guess there will just be witnessing

[cormacFitz]

hey so I tried to stay with my direct experience as much as I could today.
I noticed some interesting things.
like movement happens without any sense of I. sometimes a sense of I will try to attach itself to a movement but its not the natural way. I never noticed this before.
just wondering how to stay with direct experience when looking at something? I found this easy when I was looking at something neutral . Not as easy when looking at a person/pet.
there is a tendency to label things which I know makes it a concept in the mind. I wasn't getting annoyed about this just noting that it happens.
But lets say you are just staring out a window trying not to label or create a story about what you see. What would the direct experience of this be? I guess I am just wondering how far to break things down.... i.e. there is a tree- there is an object that is moving . It is green and brown. THe brown bits are shaped like cylinders and the green bits are shaped like flat oblong things. is this the raw data?
Also although I don't actually do the seeing because there is no me as I am referring to it in my mind. still there entails movement of the eyes and changing of focus to look . This is the process of looking its just that who I thought was looking isn't really.
hopefully this makes sense.
I just wanted to see if this is correct. It was a bit confusing before- strangely it seems to make more sense as I type it- part of the process I guess.
Please don't feel you have to get back to me within any time frame. I don't want to pester you.
Have a nice day

[Sonofnature]

This is beautiful. It seems that you are really digging into direct experience and the movements going on in thought. Keep it up!

just wondering how to stay with direct experience when looking at something? I found this easy when I was looking at something neutral . Not as easy when looking at a person/pet.

This is very common. Notice that the noticing that this is not as easy when looking at a person/pet is also a thought. What else is there besides thought?

there is a tendency to label things which I know makes it a concept in the mind. I wasn't getting annoyed about this just noting that it happens.

Good! Not judging or getting annoyed at experience as it is, labeling or not, is a good place to be. Yes, the activity of the mind is essentially what is creating duality through labeling and thereby separating what is, into separate objects. What happens if you stop labeling? Can you feel into the "nonduality" of direct experience?

I guess I am just wondering how far to break things down.... i.e. there is a tree- there is an object that is moving . It is green and brown. THe brown bits are shaped like cylinders and the green bits are shaped like flat oblong things. is this the raw data?

The purpose of breaking things down, like you have beautifully done here, is to notice how thought is overlaying and constructing meaning by labeling. Notice that even "green" "bits" "shape" "flat" "oblong" "things" are also labels. What are you left with without those labels?

Also although I don't actually do the seeing because there is no me as I am referring to it in my mind. still there entails movement of the eyes and changing of focus to look . This is the process of looking its just that who I thought was looking isn't really.

Correct! There is a subtle assumption that there is someone looking, when seeing happens. Can you see how in order to "know" or "register" something in experience, there has to be a thought about knowing it? If this is clear to you, can you see how the thought of knowing something, subtly suggest or assumes that there has to be a "someone" that knows?

I just wanted to see if this is correct.

There is nothing that is incorrect. What you experience is what you experience. We are just exploring experience here. :)

[cormacFitz]

What else is there besides thought?

objects exist with or without me thinking about them . in terms of me interpreting my perceptions it seems this can happen without thought or with it. Without thought there is just the seeing/ hearing/feeling etc. It seems like if I focus my attention on an object long enough thoughts will arise. prior to that there is no one noticing but the object is there and I am aware of it. I know this because without thinking I can walk down the road and not get knocked down/ walk into someone. I know that being aware is a subtler layer of thinking/ perception. I only added this phrase retrospectively for it to make sense.
in other words awareness must be there but it doesn't have to labelled as a phenomenon that is separate from me .

What happens if you stop labeling? Can you feel into the "non duality" of direct experience?

interesting question... I am tempted to say that nothing happens if I stop labeling it as my labeling has no effect on what actually happens. from a direct experience level there is a calmness felt. I was also surprised to note that when I don't label things/ people I still treat them the same way as normal. Like on auto pilot.
Can I feel the non duality- sometimes I get as sense of it ad it is very freeing. For example this was my first week back to work after 2 weeks off and I had a stack of emails and tasks to get through. I could feel a tightness in my jaw and also heat in my face- (stress and irritability to label it). Then I just reminded myself there was no one who could get stressed and felt calm again. I guess I am gaining faith that the processes will continue as per usual whether I get stressed or not. learning to trust my auto pilot. My job is pretty cerebral though so I am still trying to work out if I can approach everything form a non dual perspective all day... it seems like I think about the concepts I need to think about to get the job done but just don't try to insert a concept of me or mine.
I am wondering how does one deal with symbols that are everywhere when they are already labeled for us- like a stop sign.
I certainly note it and stop ( don'y worry) and I don't think I label it other then to recognize it and obey it. But when I check to see if I labelled it or not then I suppose I must have...

Can you see how in order to "know" or "register" something in experience, there has to be a thought about knowing it? If this is clear to you, can you see how the thought of knowing something, subtly suggest or assumes that there has to be a "someone" that knows?

I'm not totally sure about this but yes to register something I probably have to have a thought about it. However as i said above lots of things happen without something being registered consciously. An awareness can be inferred however to consciously register that I am aware of something is a thought. I also see how thinking you know something suggests there has to be someone who knows. the same goes for being aware. Ill have to play with this a bit and also see if there is an experience without thought. my instinct is that there is an experience but its not assimilated into whatever story I'm telling myself about it.

[Sonofnature]

objects exist with or without me thinking about them

Are you sure? Look closely. How can there be objects without the mind labeling and separating them? Without those labels, is there an object at all, or just raw experience?

It seems like if I focus my attention on an object long enough thoughts will arise. prior to that, there is no one noticing but the object is there and I am aware of it. I know this because without thinking I can walk down the road and not get knocked down/ walk into someone.

Yes, thoughts will eventually arise, but the focus here is on what’s there before thought. As you’ve pointed out, there’s awareness of “something,” but how can you know it’s an object without thought labeling it as such? Wouldn’t it just be “what is,” undefined and whole?

I know this because without thinking I can walk down the road and not get knocked down/ walk into someone. I know that being aware is a subtler layer of thinking/ perception.

As for walking down the road, that’s more about subconscious programming. Conditioned responses and patterns, not the active involvement of thought. Awareness isn’t a subtler layer of thinking, it’s what’s always present, even before thinking or perception arise.

interesting question... I am tempted to say that nothing happens if I stop labeling it as my labeling has no effect on what actually happens. from a direct experience level there is a calmness felt. I was also surprised to note that when I don't label things/ people I still treat them the same way as normal. Like on auto pilot.

That’s an interesting observation. Can you see how labeling is what creates the sense of separation, this thing versus that thing, me versus you? Without labels, without that separation, what’s left? Isn’t it just one whole, undivided and complete? This is what I meant about nonduality.

My job is pretty cerebral though so I am still trying to work out if I can approach everything form a non dual perspective all day... it seems like I think about the concepts I need to think about to get the job done but just don't try to insert a concept of me or mine.
I am wondering how does one deal with symbols that are everywhere when they are already labeled for us- like a stop sign.

Our goal isn’t to maintain a nondual perspective all day, it’s to see how the mind’s veil of concepts shapes our experience and recognize that these concepts aren’t the truth of reality.

As you go about your day, notice, who is it that’s trying to function from a nondual perspective? Can you find a self there, or is it just thoughts arising?

I'm not totally sure about this but yes to register something I probably have to have a thought about it.

Explore this further until you feel certain of a conclusion.

I also see how thinking you know something suggests there has to be someone who knows. the same goes for being aware. Ill have to play with this a bit and also see if there is an experience without thought. my instinct is that there is an experience but its not assimilated into whatever story I'm telling myself about it.

Good, play with this some more and get back to me. :)

[cormacFitz]

Look closely. How can there be objects without the mind labeling and separating them? Without those labels, is there an object at all, or just raw experience?

its true the object is there. however the concept of there being an object separate from myself is not true. This is because there is no self as such. So yeh the concept of objects is not true because my concept of who I am as a separate entity from these objects is not real. My concept of self is constantly changing.
I am seeing this more clearly. I think before I had sought to identify myself with a kind of timeless loving awareness but in trying to do so I have made it untrue. I recognize that this is just another concept.

thoughts will eventually arise, but the focus here is on what’s there before thought. As you’ve pointed out, there’s awareness of “something,” but how can you know it’s an object without thought labeling it as such? Wouldn’t it just be “what is,” undefined and whole?

its true what you say to have an awareness of something implies a duality- there is a something and a me that are separate.
I can see how labeling further reinforces this belief
I like the expression it is just "what is" as you said
sometimes I do get a sens of wholeness- although this sometimes requires me to remind myself that there is now self and then I can slip back into that sense of wholeness.

Our goal isn’t to maintain a nondual perspective all day, it’s to see how the mind’s veil of concepts shapes our experience and recognize that these concepts aren’t the truth of reality.

I am seeing this more clearly now. Actually I have been getting a bit frustrated with this the last 2 days. that is unusual for me. I think its because I am not used to analyzing my thoughts patterns so much. I am sure its a necessary part of this path and I will continue it when appropriate. Its just that before I was dealing with my thoughts by acknowledging them and letting them go as opposed to looking where they come from.
I think I do see that thoughts arise and I quickly latch on to them as being my thoughts and then I assign a tone to it i.e. pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. The neutral ones get discarded and the unpleasant ones generate more thoughts. the pleasant ones happily get assimilated as part of my experience.
So now I am noting this happening and reminding myself that there is no self and never was. THis means that the thoughts all dissipate pretty quickly. A feeling of calmness then prevails (until the next of thought).

who is it that’s trying to function from a nondual perspective? Can you find a self there, or is it just thoughts arising?

its just thoughts arising and then process I described above.
I also see that trying to function from any perspective implies effort which implies a sense of self. But I think is just where I'm at at the moment
thanks for your insights- much appreciated
Cormac

[Sonofnature]

That’s a great observation! You’re noticing something profound. Without the concept of a self as separate, the idea of objects as separate also starts to lose its grip. The mind labels and separates, creating a sense of duality. "Me" here and "objects" over there.

But let’s look closer at this idea that "the object is there."

its true the object is there. however the concept of there being an object separate from myself is not true.

Without the apparent separation and labels, how could there be any objects at all? Instead of saying "It's true that the object is there", could you say that there is just what is, without objectifying what is, and just be?

I think before I had sought to identify myself with a kind of timeless loving awareness but in trying to do so I have made it untrue. I recognize that this is just another concept.

This is a big realization, and one that’s surprisingly common in the nonduality space. Any attempt to identify, even as "timeless loving awareness", is still subtly reinforcing the belief in a self, just in a more refined form.

If we must conceptualize it, think of "awarenessing" as a verb rather than a noun. It’s not something you are; it’s simply something happening. When the mind tries to pin it down or make it into "me," it’s just creating another concept, another layer of identification.

sometimes I do get a sens of wholeness- although this sometimes requires me to remind myself that there is now self and then I can slip back into that sense of wholeness.

Do you see how this implies that there is a "someone" reminding oneself? Isn't it actually just a thought arising that says something like "oh, there is only now, only this", and a following thought with a different perspective than the previous?

Actually I have been getting a bit frustrated with this the last 2 days. that is unusual for me. I think its because I am not used to analyzing my thoughts patterns so much.

I see this as a totally natural reaction when introduced to a new behaviour, so to speak. In my experience, it went from feeling like it took effort to feeling like an automatic and effortless response to my experience.

I think I do see that thoughts arise and I quickly latch on to them as being my thoughts.

It's also worth contemplating if one is the "doer" of the thoughts that come up. Is there a me that selects the thoughts that comes up next or directs which way the train of thoughts go?

I also see that trying to function from any perspective implies effort which implies a sense of self. But I think is just where I'm at at the moment

Great observation! Trying to control what perspective one functions from, implies that one has control, and that there is someone who is controlling it.

[cormacFitz]

Without the apparent separation and labels, how could there be any objects at all?

So if objects are interpreted by thoughts and the thoughts are based on a false premise of there being a separate me. Then when you stop identifying with the thoughts there just is what you are experiencing. I see this to be true however it is not my natural reaction to seeing an object. Or more accurately to sensing the thought of there being an object. I know that when I look for a seer then I find nothing. Then I end up having a non dual perspective briefly. THis is more a felt sense then cognitive process for me

Do you see how this implies that there is a "someone" reminding oneself? Isn't it actually just a thought arising that says something like "oh, there is only now, only this", and a following thought with a different perspective than the previous?

Yes I am beginning to see that all there is is thoughts-. We interpret everything through thought.
I do feel less attached to my thoughts today so its taken less effort to perceive this then yesterday.
I am noting how labeling occurs and how it implies a division that is false/ unnecessary. I am more at peace with this today.
I can't stop it happening yet- I don't think this is the goal?

It's also worth contemplating if one is the "doer" of the thoughts that come up. Is there a me that selects the thoughts that comes up next or directs which way the train of thoughts go?

I feel like there is no real doer of thoughts. Its just all shifting thoughts like shifting sands- no real base to them.
How about the fact that thoughts can be directed somewhat or initially. For example in this inquiry I am having to think if I am generating thoughts or if they are just arising but in doing so I am generating thoughts. Its hard to do this and also maintain a non dual perspective

[cormacFitz]

1 other question- I hope you don't mind me asking. Just so i know what the end game looks like.

Do you find your mind planning things ? If so what is the difference between how that is for you now versus before you did this? I mean on an experiential level as opposed to an intellectual level.
thanks