One love

[Sonofnature]

So if objects are interpreted by thoughts and the thoughts are based on a false premise of there being a separate me. Then when you stop identifying with the thoughts there just is what you are experiencing.

Objects are not interpreted by thoughts because, in reality, there are no objects. What appear to be "objects" are only apparent due to thought labeling and dividing what is experienced in direct perception. This labeling creates the illusion of separate objects out of what is inherently one seamless whole.

Rather than saying thoughts are based on a false premise of a separate "me," it’s more accurate to say that thoughts arise as expressions of conditioning, reacting to life as it unfolds. The "me" is just another thought, so it’s not necessary to attribute thoughts to it.

I see this to be true however it is not my natural reaction to seeing an object.

That's not a problem and not the goal. The key is not to resist this function but to see it for what it is. Just a process of labeling and dividing for practical purposes.

As the understanding deepens, the grip of the illusion lessens, and you begin to see the distinction between the practical utility of objectifying and the deeper reality of what is. This shift doesn’t mean the mind stops labeling, it just means the labels lose their weight as "truth" and are seen as mere conventions.

I can't stop it happening yet- I don't think this is the goal?

Exactly. This is not the goal.

How about the fact that thoughts can be directed somewhat or initially. For example in this inquiry I am having to think if I am generating thoughts or if they are just arising but in doing so I am generating thoughts. Its hard to do this and also maintain a non dual perspective

Again, the purpose of our exploration is not to maintain a nondual perspective.

You ask how about the fact that thoughts can be directed somewhat. Is that really a fact? Let's take a closer look. Wasn't it my comment that triggered a thought response in your experience, that questioned wether you are generating thoughts or not? And isn't it true that the following thought was a triggered reaction by the previous? It might feel like there is someone directing thoughts, but if we take a closer look, that's not the case. :)

1 other question- I hope you don't mind me asking. Just so i know what the end game looks like.

I don't mind questions, but I want to point out that whatever interpretation comes up for you when reading my answer, or anyone's for that matter, is going to be an accurate interpretation of "the end game". So instead of anticipating an imaginative interpretation of how that will look, it would be more fruitful to stay with reality in your direct experience.

Do you find your mind planning things ? If so what is the difference between how that is for you now versus before you did this? I mean on an experiential level as opposed to an intellectual level.

There is no one making any plans, but there can be planning happening. I guess the main difference is that plans are held very lightly and are no way near as detailed as they used to be as a result of recognizing that I have no control of what will happen. With this recognition, there are also no attachements to any outcome of the plan, which used to be a source of suffering. I guess one could say there is planning around an intention, but not around an outcome.

[cormacFitz]

This labeling creates the illusion of separate objects out of what is inherently one seamless whole.

Yes I am seeing this and I am experiencing this seamless wholeness when I notice the labeling and recognize that it is an illusion of separateness. I am glad when I do remember to so this but also glad to hear that I shouldn't be striving to do this all day. So I'm going to continue to play with this concept but hold it lightly at the same time. I think I got it right yesterday. I felt very happy and calm and not at all attached to outcomes. I saw the thoughts arising as just that. I noticed that sometimes thoughts would try to go down familiar thought patterns reinforcing some story lines. yet i didn't feel stressed abut it . I feel like I was seeing clearly for a whole afternoon. Which was amazing

Is that really a fact?

I'm not sure anything is a fact any more! :)

Let's take a closer look. Wasn't it my comment that triggered a thought response in your experience, that questioned whether you are generating thoughts or not?

yes that's true I hadn't thought of it like that. there is usually an external reason or internal motivation based on ego that drives any directed thought in the first place. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered.

isn't it true that the following thought was a triggered reaction by the previous?

yes I have definitely noticed this.

it would be more fruitful to stay with reality in your direct experience.

Ok yes I'll try to keep to the present experience. I asked that question as I felt strangely like I was in the right space yesterday for a few hrs. But the thoughts were still there so I thought I should check.

I guess the main difference is that plans are held very lightly and are no way near as detailed as they used to be as a result of recognizing that I have no control of what will happen. With this recognition, there are also no attachements to any outcome of the plan, which used to be a source of suffering. I guess one could say there is planning around an intention, but not around an outcome.

thanks you for this explanation- very helpful for me

So yeh for now I'm gonna pay attention to when I'm labeling things and what effect this has. Also noting what is the difference when I stop labeling things. But yes I'll try not to strive too hard this and let it happen organically if possible.

[Sonofnature]

I think I got it right yesterday. I felt very happy and calm and not at all attached to outcomes. I saw the thoughts arising as just that. I noticed that sometimes thoughts would try to go down familiar thought patterns reinforcing some story lines. yet i didn't feel stressed abut it . I feel like I was seeing clearly for a whole afternoon. Which was amazing.

This sounds great! I just want to point out one thing, and that is that nothing is right or wrong. It's just what is. :) It might seem trivial, but categorizing what is happening into right or wrong sets up an attachement to what you think is right, and a rejection/judgement of what you think is wrong. Life is happening the way it is happening.

I'm not sure anything is a fact any more! :)

Perfect! :D

yes that's true I hadn't thought of it like that. there is usually an external reason or internal motivation based on ego that drives any directed thought in the first place. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered.

Exactly!

So yeh for now I'm gonna pay attention to when I'm labeling things and what effect this has. Also noting what is the difference when I stop labeling things. But yes I'll try not to strive too hard this and let it happen organically if possible.

This sounds good, but there a subtle suggestion in that last part, that there is someone there who has control over striving too hard or not, which by know I think you know is not true, at least intellectually. What can happen is a thought can arise that says something like "I need to pay attention to labeling" and maybe a following thought about, "Oh, right. I shouldn't be striving at this". Or there can just be a thought that says something like; "Oh, without labeling, this feels xyz." All just thoughts arising, without anyone striving or not striving. :)

It feels like the right time to introduce a new exercise to explore the notion of control and doership more closely!

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts.

Examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

[cormacFitz]

Life is happening the way it is happening.

This was more how I felt . I wasn’t being goal driven or putting expectations on things. It did very pleasant and I was relaxed. Super happy to be talking to people . But the way I was thinking about our interactions was different . Anyway that passed but I have had small glimpses since then of this feeling that things were all one effortlessly.

How is the movement controlled?
A thought initiated the movement. It’s like I know I’m supposed to move my hand. But then it just starts happening. There is no intention to flip the hand for a while but it keeps happening until a thought comes up that I’m done and then the movement stops.

Does a thought control it?
Like I said above I felt a thought started and stopped it . However the movement once initiated was happening automatically.

Can a controller be located .
No there are just thoughts .

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
First I think ok it’s time to investigate this experience . Then my attention moves to my hand . Then I am just seeing my hand rotating. I say my hand but that is just to explain this . I felt no ownership of the hand. Nor did I feel like there was a me who had instigated it, because this thought had gone and all there really was was the seeing of a hand rotating.

I’m going hiking today so I’ll be late getting back to you next time…

[cormacFitz]

Hey Marius I’m back

I did spend a bit more time analysing the hand movement. I actually feel like there are thoughts initially . These tend to be self referential- like is now an appropriate time to do this with my hand movement, or I should check my hand movement experiment again . But then it seems like it will just starts happening . I can’t find a thought that controls the movement in any way. Sometimes thought of possession of the hand or control of the movement may arise but the movement is definitely happening independent of thought…

[Sonofnature]

Hey!

Life had plans that didn't include responding to your last message. I will get to it tomorrow. In the meantime, I think it would be fruitful to introduce a new exercise if you are up for it.

I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can:

Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Talk soon. :)

[cormacFitz]

So I have tried this throughout the day
There tends to be the perception of a sensation I.e. pot falling sounds like a loud banging noise. The mind doesn’t necessarily attach any meaning to it most of the time . However when the pot fell I noticed thoughts generating. Then I created a narrative in my head as to why a pot fell. Straight away this creates labels and therefore division.
As I continue to listen to my daughter cooking I realise I hadn’t registered the noises though there was an awareness. So if you stopped me and asked me what I had been listening to I would be able to say water running but prior to that there was just water running. To be more specific there was a sound of water falling from a tap into the metal sink.
Interestingly I am not interpreting the noise to be part of me or external to me until I thoughts arise . Like I said these thoughts create division that was not in my initial experience.

[Sonofnature]

I did spend a bit more time analysing the hand movement. I actually feel like there are thoughts initially . These tend to be self referential- like is now an appropriate time to do this with my hand movement, or I should check my hand movement experiment again . But then it seems like it will just starts happening . I can’t find a thought that controls the movement in any way. Sometimes thought of possession of the hand or control of the movement may arise but the movement is definitely happening independent of thought.

So who controls the movement? Can you find anything controlling anything in your experience?

There tends to be the perception of a sensation I.e. pot falling sounds like a loud banging noise. The mind doesn’t necessarily attach any meaning to it most of the time . However when the pot fell I noticed thoughts generating. Then I created a narrative in my head as to why a pot fell. Straight away this creates labels and therefore division.

I see that I could have been more clear about the exercise. That's my bad. :) Let's try that again.

I want you to label daily activities with the following labels, rather than focusing on the usual narrative about what is going on.

The labels are: colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast and you become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply note = image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply note = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply note = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply note = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply note = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply note = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories and write out an example of doing this during your day here, so that I understand that you have understood the task, and also about how you experienced this exercise.

[cormacFitz]

who controls the movement? Can you find anything controlling anything in your experience?

No one controls the movement. It seems to just happen.

Just break down daily activities into these categories and write out an example of doing this during your day here

sitting here having a coffee
sight -a cup on a desk
smell- smell of coffee
feeling- warm liquid in mouth, warm hand, chair beneath me air on the face
taste of coffee
hearing background music
thoughts are about if this is the correct answer

So yeh I was noting each sensation that was present while I drank it. Also noting when I noticed that thoughts were present- thinking...

[Sonofnature]

Hi Cormac.

What has been alive in your experience the past few days? Where is your intuition taking you? Is there anything in particular you feel drawn to exploring, or do you feel content?

[cormacFitz]

Hey Marius
hope you are well...

What has been alive in your experience the past few days?

So I have been getting quite alot out of this non dual perspective. I am noticing how I am labeling things and people as others. THen I am remembering that this is just a false impression I have of someone else and not real. Also recognizing that who I think I am is not true either. THen I find that I can have better interactions with people throughout the day. I have more empathy for them. I am happier to see everyone even people who I am not friendly with. My interactions seem more genuine at times. My smile comes more naturally.So this often takes the conscious effort but I also go through brief runs of it happening effortlessly at times.
I still have thoughts about them and me being separate as our conversations would not be possible otherwise but I am definitely registering these as just thoughts and maintaining the feeling of non duality. To me this feels open and calm and full of empathy for others. I am probably better focused too when dealing with people in work
I was even able to maintain this perspective during a couple of conversations where I might previously have gotten triggered. which isn't to say that I let other people get their way necessarily. I can still draw my line in the sand and stand up for myself if I feel it is necessary.

Where is your intuition taking you?

my intuition is taking to me towards my suffering most strongly.
I have been able to see a couple of not helpful narratives I can have in my mind happen as per usual but there is no stress associated with them. I really only have 3 things going on my life which bother me. Mostly because they are outside of my control. However I don't seem to be getting hooked by these issues and becoming reactive. I am simply watching the thoughts arising ,recognizing them as just thoughts and not attaching a sense of ownership to the thoughts. So that is pretty helpful. I feel like obviously I would want to relieve any suffering I have so this is where I was drawn the most.
However I am also trying to apply the same principals to pleasant emotions and pleasant thoughts . This doesn't happen as instinctively.

Is there anything in particular you feel drawn to exploring, or do you feel content?

I just feel I need to relax more into this self inquiry.
I also need to have more faith that It will all work out the way its going to work out . THis would also mean not getting frustrated when I drop the ball. Not that I get frustrated too much. I have been working on my self compassion for a while now. I also already recognized that striving to get something you already have doesn't make sense.

[Sonofnature]

I am noticing how I am labeling things and people as others. THen I am remembering that this is just a false impression I have of someone else and not real.

This is great to read! 😊

Also recognizing that who I think I am is not true either.

Who do you think you are?

I have been able to see a couple of not helpful narratives I can have in my mind happen as per usual but there is no stress associated with them.

The noticing of these and the not reacting is where the juice is here. The unhelpful narratives can come and go as they want. Those in themselves are not a problem.

Mostly because they are outside of my control.

Isn't everything outside of your control? And don't just answer from your intellect here. It's important to really look here.

I feel like obviously I would want to relieve any suffering I have so this is where I was drawn the most.

I want to make a distinction between emotional pain and suffering, in case you are mistaken one for the other. Pain will always have a place in life, it comes and it goes. Suffering on the other hand, is a rejection of feeling the pain which only prolongs it and this turns into suffering. Do you see how the desire to want the suffering to go away, rather than accepting that there is suffering, subtly keeps the suffering alive?

I also need to have more faith that It will all work out the way its going to work out . THis would also mean not getting frustrated when I drop the ball. Not that I get frustrated too much.

This again seems to suggest that you believe that there is a "me" and that the "me" is somehow in control. Who is it that needs to have more faith? Work out for who? Life is just unfolding. It doesn't work out for anyone. If dropping the ball happens, it happens. If frustration happens, it happens. There is nothing "you" can do about it, other than observing. And by observing, what can happen is new programming gets installed so this happens less frequently.

What do you get from reading the above?

[cormacFitz]

Who do you think you are?

What I was referring to was my ego.
But who do I actually think I am is a trick question. As the substance/ content of thought is not who I am. I can see this quite clearly . MY mind will just latch onto thoughts and claim them as my own. Then they go and my mind is on to the next thought. When I search for an ownership or a sense of I in the previous thought it is gone. Its like my ego can only latch onto one narrative at a time. Also I am noticing that how I feel about the same thought pattern will change quite frequently.
So I am as much as possible noting when this is process is occurring and investigating if the thoughts feel true. When I look for a source of the thoughts or something permanent that my ego can be based on I find nothing. THis process of reaffirming my true nature doesn't take as long now as every time the search is the same . So I just have to be aware that thoughts are occurring and that the sense of ownership or of a me in the middle of it all is not possible. IT only takes a second or two to remember now.

Isn't everything outside of your control?

Yes that is true as there is no one to control. Its all just shifting sands.
How do you ally this with the thought that one can control ones behavior? Sure there is no one to control it but yet I have to behave in a certain way. I can't just say I'm not going to work today, there is still a drive to push myself to achieve other things too. I think I sort of get the answer to this- Its like there is a thought that I should be doing something but it is just a thought and that something will be done but not by a thinker of the thought. Its a bit mind boggling ( although we are trying to boggle our minds).

Do you see how the desire to want the suffering to go away, rather than accepting that there is suffering, subtly keeps the suffering alive?

yes I can see this its like the equation suffering = pain X resistance
Like right now the neighbors dog is barking. The noise is load and also not at regular intervals. However if i get agitated by the noise then the suffering increases. In this situation removing the label of dog and barking is helpful for me. Also recognizing that no one is agitated. In fact he has stopped now and there is no trace of the Cormac was that was annoyed before- thus my belief that there is no Cormac who collects and owns experiences must be false.

What do you get from reading the above?

I agree life is just unfolding.
There is no me that needs to cross a finish line.
I will continue to observe everything that happens. Meanwhile my ego will continue to try to attach itself to events,thoughts,beliefs and emotions. I will observe the way the ego flounders around grasping for something to call my own then dropping it straight after.

[Sonofnature]

Hi Cormac.

Apologies for the late reply. For some reason, I didn't get the normal notification that you had responded to my last post.

MY mind will just latch onto thoughts and claim them as my own. Then they go and my mind is on to the next thought.

What is “your” mind, really? Does it exist as a separate thing, or is it just a label we use for the flow of thoughts? Take a moment to notice: do you actually experience having a mind, or do you simply experience thinking?

Its like my ego can only latch onto one narrative at a time.

What is your ego? Can you find it as something real, or is it just another label we use to describe certain patterns of thoughts and feelings? Look directly—does an “ego” exist, or is it just a story about what’s happening?

How do you ally this with the thought that one can control ones behavior? Sure there is no one to control it but yet I have to behave in a certain way. I can't just say I'm not going to work today, there is still a drive to push myself to achieve other things too.

Think of it this way: actions arise from a web of conditioning. Your learned habits, beliefs, and environmental influences. You could decide not to go to work, but because of your existing conditioning (desire to keep your job, sense of responsibility, awareness of consequences), you usually end up going anyway. If your conditioning were different, maybe you valued freedom over security, or you didn’t fear losing your job, then not going to work might feel natural, and you’d experience the consequences of that choice.

Over time, experiences and their consequences can shift your conditioning. For instance, if skipping work resulted in hardship you found intolerable, you might adjust in the future, “installing a new line of programming” so to speak. But notice, this isn’t a personal “you” in control, it’s life unfolding through the interplay of circumstances, past experiences, and present conditions.

I think I sort of get the answer to this- Its like there is a thought that I should be doing something but it is just a thought and that something will be done but not by a thinker of the thought. Its a bit mind boggling ( although we are trying to boggle our minds).

Absolutely. Not all thoughts are a problem. Practical thoughts, like planning your next holiday (lightly) or remembering an appointment, are useful tools. Where suffering creeps in is when we invest in stories that create anxiety, guilt, or a sense of personal failure if things don’t go our way. These painful thoughts often revolve around an imagined “me” who’s in total control or needs to be. When you see through that notion of a separate doer, you can still have and use practical thoughts, but you’re less burdened by the stressful ones that insist “I should have done this differently” or “I need to be in control".

Like right now the neighbors dog is barking. The noise is load and also not at regular intervals. However if i get agitated by the noise then the suffering increases.

Look at it this way. If there is a preference for stillness and your surroundings are not still it is likely that a reaction of agitation coming up. In that moment, we can notice the agitation and recognize that life is not unfolding in a way that aligns with our conditioned preferences and that we have a subtle belief that life should unfold the way we want it to unfold. If we recognize this, we might see the absurdity of our belief, and it might dissolve.

Also recognizing that no one is agitated. In fact he has stopped now and there is no trace of the Cormac was that was annoyed before- thus my belief that there is no Cormac who collects and owns experiences must be false.

Or you could say, recognizing that "Cormac" is a label for your current conditioning. We don't want to substitute one belief that says "Cormac exist, and is me" for another belief that "Cormac doesn't exist", we want to recognise what Cormac actually is, and that you are not that. Do you understand the difference?

Meanwhile my ego will continue to try to attach itself to events,thoughts,beliefs and emotions. I will observe the way the ego flounders around grasping for something to call my own then dropping it straight after.

Again, I just want to underline the non-existence of something labeled "an ego". Could we rather say that you will observe the way your attention flounders around habitually grasping for something familiar to hold on to?

[cormacFitz]

Hey Marius,
I think the answer to your first two questions is the same. ... I was just using those terms for convenience.
I don't really believe there is such a thing as an ego and haven't for a long time.
Also yes when I was referring to my mind I meant just a term to describe the flow of thoughts. I also don't think there is an actual mind that accumulates experiences and orchestrates thoughts.
i do like your descriptions of an ego or mind though.

recognize that life is not unfolding in a way that aligns with our conditioned preferences and that we have a subtle belief that life should unfold the way we want it to unfold.

Yes this is how I also see my suffering. Very well put.

If we recognize this, we might see the absurdity of our belief, and it might dissolve.

I am reminding myself of this and it does quickly relieve stress/tension. It seems so true and simple but it is not unfolding instinctively for me. I am needing to remind myself and go through a process of remembering that these are just thought or unpleasant sensations and that they will pass and that they belong in the moment.
There is indeed a subtle belief that things could be better . i recognize this as not being helpful and I can address this when it arises through the process described above or remembering the truth of non duality.

we want to recognise what Cormac actually is, and that you are not that. Do you understand the difference?

So what you are saying is my conditioning exists but it is not who I am. I agree with this. I'll try to ponder this some more . I'm hoping to start seeing this automatically to be honest. I'll try work on acceptance of my conditioning, I think the knowledge that it is just thoughts is helping
thanks