A hard case?

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I haven't been able to focus properly over the last two days, but I will answer the last questions tomorrow.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Seeing the trees outside = simply colors (seeing)

What makes a thought a belief?

There is nothing intrinsic in a thought that makes it a belief. What seems to make a thought a belief is the “I” story (“I” believes in it), and the fact that others thoughts assumes these thoughts/beliefs as true.

Is there a believer?

No. When saying “I believe in X”, it is not possible to find this “I”. But there is this assumption that this thought/belief is “mine”, because it is appearing “here”. It is a circular pattern.

What makes the experience personal besides the thought?

This seems to be my biggest sticking point. It is really a deeply rooted assumption that, for this experience to happen, there must be an “I”.

But I’m unable to find what is still holding this up.

There are sensations “of heart beating”, “breathing”, subtle ones that have “always” been there but besides that is there a center of some kind, a “spot” or a “pole” a “hook” where all the experience bounces of or is attached?

There is a sensation of being a seer, but, looking closer, it is just sensations in the eyes and forehead. So, no, there is no center.

How exactly is that “personal” experienced?

Besides a labeling of everything that happens here as “me”, “mine” or happening to “me”, I can’t find anything making this “personal”.

But this doesn’t make it impersonal, either, right? It just is.

What do you find?

Experience just is. There is no center to which it is happening.

It’s “stubborn” because it’s been repeated for a long time, but is there any truth in it?

I can’t confirm any of it in DE.

Are there two “things”?

No.

If consciousness is not a learned concept, did you know about it when you were a baby?

Indeed. Labeling this as consciousness was something learned.

What is “here”?

Just this happening, everything else is interpretation.

So if there is a fear of non-existence, explore that (otherwise is just a philosophical debate). Stay with the sensation that comes with the thought “I don’t exist in any form or shape – not as Nelson, not as consciousness, not as God, nor as a void, or a bubble, or whatever. See what shows up.

I will dedicate more time to this one.

Clear about bypassing?

Clear. Bypassing is essentially trying to live as if you realized that the mirage is a mirage, when, in fact, you didn’t. Thank you :)

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson

There is nothing intrinsic in a thought that makes it a belief. What seems to make a thought a belief is the “I” story (“I” believes in it), and the fact that others thoughts assumes these thoughts/beliefs as true.

Can thoughts think or assume? Can they see or hear, or feel?

Nothing thought says is true. Beliefs are a self-reinforcing feedback loop that stays in the system until properly examined - thoughts are self-organised like puzzle pieces fitting together. So when they do not fit with the rest, they are discarded. Beliefs are thoughts with identification, thoughts with hooks. Thus, it is important to check the validity of all thoughts as they appear.
Believing is not about the truth but about feeling. Remember thoughts do not cause, but describe. Whenever there is a “strong” feeling (sensations), it’s accompanied by a story – what is that, why this is happening, where it is coming from, is it positive or negative, is it dangerous or beneficial (to whom?). It’s a “copy and paste” description that is associated with that feeling. Something that has happened in the “past” and it’s always labelled that way – wrongly :).
The story becomes sticky when it is invested with emotion. Where the focus goes, story follows. But when focus goes onto the sensations, when the focus goes away from the head (aka thought) and into feeling and raw experiencing, release happens. The sensation is seen as it is NOW, and not how thought says it was. Less story is being woven. Stepping in and out of story is part of the dance of life. All is included.

Here is great question to ask when the story becomes too much: Is it true? Is it true that a “me” exists? Is it true that there is no “I”? Test it. Is it true that the story goes on by itself? Employ this question often— use it!
There is a common assumption that seeing through illusion means that “one does not get lost in the story” ever again. If you continue to "get lost in the story"/believe, then it just shows you that it may be time to take a careful look at why and how that’s happening. But we do not need to get rid of the story. We merely need to see it as a fiction. The story is happening, yes; the content of the story is a story, not reality. All is not as it seems. Ask yourself: Is it true that life goes on with or without the story? Are sounds and colours here if they don’t have labels?
The story is part of life; it’s a reflection of beliefs about life. Unquestioned assumptions play a crucial role in where and how the story goes. Or so it seems ;)
What's left, story aside, is a sesnation that needs to be felt and "released".

What makes the experience personal besides the thought?

This seems to be my biggest sticking point. It is really a deeply rooted assumption that, for this experience to happen, there must be an “I”.
But I’m unable to find what is still holding this up.

MUST? SHOULD? Who says so? And to whom it is saying that?
This belief could also be rooted in the assumption that “others” have their own experience. But how exactly do you know that? Can you experience this? Can you see a border where your supposed awareness ends and somebody else’s start? Do you experience other people’s awareness somehow? Can you see a reference point that marks “mine” and “not mine”?

Everything that comes “your” way from “outside”, is it “outside”? There is a sound (“someone talking”). Where is the interpretation/meaning of that sound happening? Can you ever leave your “reality bubble”? There are just hearing and thinking happening (among other things :) ). Is the listener or thinker needed for this to happen? Are there even hearing and thinking, or experiencing without the labels, OR just THIS?
Is there an entity in any form or shape? CHECK! If you say that all there is just personal experience, it is solipsism. But solipsism suggests an entity that experiences reality – awareness, mind, etc. So there are two – reality and the entity. Can you see anything like that? Or there is just THIS/”reality”
Do you see how many other assumptions are there? What is there when you drop all these?

Happy new year!

Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali

Happy new year!

Happy New Year! And thank you so much for your guidance during all this time.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson

Are we still doing this???
Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Are we still doing this???

Yes, if that's okay with you. I just needed a few days off. But I used that time to sink into raw experience.

One theme that keeps coming up here is death, or what will happen when there is no experience here. There is this sense of continuity created by the mind, the 'I,' and this belief that when 'I' dies, this experience ends. But I can see that no 'I' can be found, and that there is just this happening, occurring for no knowable reason. If 'something' is being 'born' and 'dying,' it is every sound, color, sensation, etc., that is 'appearing' and 'disappearing' in the experience. This is probably off the mark, but I'm just sharing because I notice a strong reaction in the body when investigating this.

I will start answering the questions tomorrow.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson
It’s good to hear from you! It’s been a while :)

One theme that keeps coming up here is death, or what will happen when there is no experience here. There is this sense of continuity created by the mind, the 'I,' and this belief that when 'I' dies, this experience ends.

Has the “I” ever been born? When? Do you remember it? What are memories saying about that??? Or you rely on others’ memories? Have thoughts ever been true? What will die? Experience? THIS? Or the story of Nelson? What is Nelson? Does the character in a book really die? What happens if you reread the story?
And how about “I don’t know what will happen” and make peace with that? You just don’t really know and you will never know. Have you ever experienced “no experience”? That concept is not pointing to anything real, like Santa. We already looked at the fairy tale of “deep sleep”. Have you ever experienced “deep sleep”? So how do you know “it” exists? How do you know that “no experience” exists? How do you know that death exists? Thought says so? Remember seeing “others” (as in other’s death) is still a story, an interpretation…

But I can see that no 'I' can be found, and that there is just this happening, occurring for no knowable reason. If 'something' is being 'born' and 'dying,' it is every sound, color, sensation, etc., that is 'appearing' and 'disappearing' in the experience.

What has been born and dies are labels. Remember even “sound”, “colour”, “sensation”, “taste”, “smell”, and “thought” are labels. THIS is indivisible, with no parts, no beginning and no end. Have you ever experienced “no THIS”?! Exactly!! Even in isolation chamber, there is still experience.
Can you separate the colour from the sound in experience?

This is probably off the mark, but I'm just sharing because I notice a strong reaction in the body when investigating this.

What you can do is find out if that is really what is happening right now. We've been through this before and you know the "drill". Is there such a sensation as “fear of death”? Is there “death” in it, or anything “fearful”? What makes that sensation “fear of death” exactly? Look at it without the label. What about the sensation of “not knowing” or “not in control”? Stay and explore that sensation. What do you find in common? And now look at the sensation of “peace” and “content”. Stay with that sensation. What do you find in common with the other two? Of course we are not comparing the stories. This is like comparing apples to stones, or aliens for that matter. We are just comparing/experiencing all of these sensations “on their own”. There is certain “energy” to them but besides that what says that the one is pleasurable and desirable and the other is not? What makes the one particularly “peace” and the other “anxiety”? What makes the one strong and the other one not? What exactly is "strong"?
You are still taking things for granted. You should have seen by now, that NO concept is true and can be taken at face value. Concepts are at the most an approximation, an icon, a tool, with some being more useful/”pro-flow” than others. That is why nothing we say here will ever be true in experience. Silence!
When there is a "strong" sensation "present", it just needs to be experienced in silence and then it becomes "not strong", "nothing new and scary" (ask a masochist about pain). Labels change, flow happens. That is the juiciness of life/THIS

And this is how we go in circles with the answers. Please catch up with the answers. I feel this is very unproductive. You are not taking your time, you are procrastinating ;)

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

P.S. In future please let me know if you want to take a time off, so I know that you haven't given up and not take a new guidee.

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Hearing a music on my computer = simply sounds (hearing)

It’s good to hear from you! It’s been a while :)

It is good to be here :) Thank you.

And this is how we go in circles with the answers. Please catch up with the answers. I feel this is very unproductive. You are not taking your time, you are procrastinating ;)

There may be some aspect of unconscious procrastination here, but it is more a combination of a lack of time and the need to see things with my own eyes.

When I read your questions, I usually know the answer immediately, but it’s based on memory or intellect. To truly see, I usually need some time.

There’s also this aspect of lack of time. I’ve been able to dedicate between 30 minutes to 1 hour per day to this investigation. Unfortunately, at this moment, I can’t dedicate more time.

Although it’s a small amount of time, it has been having a great impact here. When we started talking, I was pretty lost, but now there’s some peace. Things are starting to get clearer.

However, I also don’t want you to use your time unproductively. So, please, let me know if you’re okay with this level of dedication. I know there are so many people waiting to be guided.

P.S. In future please let me know if you want to take a time off, so I know that you haven't given up and not take a new guidee.

Sorry. Sure, and If I ever decide to give up, I’ll let you know, but I don’t plan on doing that.

Has the “I” ever been born?

I would be lying if I said I’m completely sure that there is no “I,” and therefore no “I” to be born. But I can see that no experiencer or manager of life can be found here. So, at least considering DE, no "I" has ever been born.

Apparently, what truly happened is that, at some point, these patterns of sensations and colors began to be labeled as "body/I". But this is just a label.

When?

Never.

Do you remember it?

No.

What are memories saying about that??? Or you rely on others’ memories?

There is a story about a baby Nelson that was born, etc, but this was something learned.

Have thoughts ever been true?

Thoughts are just thoughts. At best, their contents are good approximations.

What will die?

“I” being a label, can not die. It is just a thought, a story, a fiction.

But this experience will likely end at some point in the future, although this is merely speculation. Moreover, I’m not sure if this can be called death.

Experience? THIS?

Experience probably will end.

Or the story of Nelson?

In the story of Nelson, Nelson will die. But this is just a story.

What is Nelson?

A label/story.

Does the character in a book really die?

No.

What happens if you reread the story?

It won’t resuscitate :) Because it has never born or died, in the first place. It is just a story.

And how about “I don’t know what will happen” and make peace with that?

This is the difficult part :) I notice a constant need here for something to be "me", so I can control my destiny and avoid death for as long as possible.

Of course, more thinking.

Have you ever experienced “no experience”?

No.

I will continue tomorrow.

Thank you, Rali.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson

There’s also this aspect of lack of time. I’ve been able to dedicate between 30 minutes to 1 hour per day to this investigation. Unfortunately, at this moment, I can’t dedicate more time.

I understand. Life happens… Thank you for telling me! Who/what is to blame? ;)

There may be some aspect of unconscious procrastination here, but it is more a combination of a lack of time and the need to see things with my own eyes.

When I read your questions, I usually know the answer immediately, but it’s based on memory or intellect. To truly see, I usually need some time

Looking doesn’t take time – it’s immediate, fresh and raw. If you have to spend time with it in order to see, making sense of it, you are doing something else (persuading yourself, creating a new story). You can’t force yourself to see reality. It takes a second to look. I’m not trying to rush you, just making sure that you are not coming with a new narrative, bypassing. The trend in your responses is to report thought content, which you agree at the end that it is just that, but you still leave it there. We are not interested in these stories. We all had them. We are interested in reports of DE. Doubt is the resistance of old thoughts to the new. The cure for doubt is to look, and to look again, every time these thoughts appear. It should happen every time they appear. It does not happen only in certain dedicated time of the day. Most shifts happen while washing the dishes or throwing the trash.
(May I suggest reading my reply in the morning (10 min), staying the whole day with the main questions in mind, and writing your reply in the evening (30 min)?)

Which leads me to:

I would be lying if I said I’m completely sure that there is no “I,” and therefore no “I” to be born. But I can see that no experiencer or manager of life can be found here. So, at least considering DE, no "I" has ever been born.

What is that entity that is not sure? Did YOU come up with that thought: “I would be lying if I said I’m completely sure that there is no “I,” and therefore no “I” to be born.”? If not, are you the one listening to that thought? So check then! Is there an I in any form or shape (experiencer, thinker, doer) that could be seen, felt, smelled, heard, and/or tasted? Right now? And what about now? And NOW? Check until you are certain. At which point will you notice that these are just thoughts (not yours) that have nothing in common with reality? Would the "i" appear out of the blue? Is there future where this could happen? Are you mistaking a subject in a sentence/language (the icon on your desktop), with an entity? If it cannot be found in senses then it’s just a thought, an old copy and paste from the past. This is where the “lying” is :))). That is the only way to “deal” with these thoughts

Experience probably will end.

But this experience will likely end at some point in the future, although this is merely speculation. Moreover, I’m not sure if this can be called death.

Thank you for acknowledging that this is a speculation! How exactly do you know that experience will end?And when exactly is the future again? After NOW? The future exists only in thoughts. Time happens only a thought at a time (according to memories). Do you see the absurdity of this? Your life and death is at the mercy of thoughts (excuse the puns).
Do you expect that somehow you will stop using pronouns in the "future"?

This is the difficult part :) I notice a constant need here for something to be "me", so I can control my destiny and avoid death for as long as possible.

And this is why I wrote this:

What you can do is find out if that is really what is happening right now. Is there such a sensation as “fear of death”? Is there “death” in it, or anything “fearful”? What makes that sensation “fear of death” exactly? Look at it without the label. What about the sensation of “not knowing” or “not in control”? Stay and explore that sensation. What do you find in common? And now look at the sensation of “peace” and “content”. Stay with that sensation. What do you find in common with the other two? Of course we are not comparing the stories. This is like comparing apples to stones, or aliens for that matter. We are just comparing/experiencing all of these sensations “on their own”. There is certain “energy” to them but besides that what says that the one is pleasurable and desirable and the other is not? What makes the one particularly “peace” and the other “anxiety”? What makes the one strong and the other one not? You are still taking things for granted. You should have seen by now, that NO concept is true and can be taken at face value. Concepts are at the most an approximation, an icon, a tool, with some being more useful/”pro-flow” than others. That is why nothing we say here will ever be true in experience. Silence!

So, in stead of just giving me more story, try it and see what comes up…You are saying you want to “look with own eyes”, but you are not looking, you are just reporting stories… Where is the looking? Where is that "I" that needs stuff??? That can control stuff??? Check whether you have control over what is happening and when. How about now? Does THIS care about what you want THIS to be? Wanting control is just that— wanting. When you say a "need" (like hunger), which one of the appearing sensations is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it?
In simple everyday life, what is happening is happening. Seeming decisions are made, seeming actions are taken, seeming things get done. Thinking about what should be done, thinking about what needs to be done, and planning the next step flow with whatever is happening. Hands and feet are doing their thing and thoughts are flying by. What is in control of that? LOOK! If I ask “What is in control of the weather?,” what what would your answer be? Thoughts? Clouds? Or maybe the wind?

I can add to the previous quoted questions: At which point the “peace” becomes “boredom” and “anxiety” - “excitement”? Do you see any physical link between these labels and the sensations? How do you know that they are linked? Can a thought cause anything, or just describes/gives “meaning” to whatever is happening (i.e., sensation)? Could this be a case where you are creating something out of nothing (i.e., fear of death, not being in control)?

Although it’s a small amount of time, it has been having a great impact here. When we started talking, I was pretty lost, but now there’s some peace. Things are starting to get clearer.

Sorry. Sure, and If I ever decide to give up, I’ll let you know, but I don’t plan on doing that.

I’m happy to hear that!

Love
Rali

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Seeing my hands typing on the keyboard = simply colors (seeing)

I understand. Life happens… Thank you for telling me! Who/what is to blame? ;)

Thank you for understanding.

Looking doesn’t take time – it’s immediate, fresh and raw. If you have to spend time with it in order to see, making sense of it, you are doing something else (persuading yourself, creating a new story).

Indeed. Usually dealing with doubts.

May I suggest reading my reply in the morning (10 min), staying the whole day with the main questions in mind, and writing your reply in the evening (30 min)?

I will try to do that.

The cure for doubt is to look, and to look again, every time these thoughts appear.

Yes.

What is that entity that is not sure?

The first impulse is to say that it is the “body”, which we have already investigated many times. But as you mentioned, this is just a copy-paste from the past.

In the experience, there is no experiencer, doer, or any separate entity. There is only the experience happening.

There is just a story about an “I” that is not sure.

Did YOU come up with that thought: “I would be lying if I said I’m completely sure that there is no “I,” and therefore no “I” to be born.”?

This was something learned, and the thought simply popped out of nowhere.

Also, no thinker can be found.

If not, are you the one listening to that thought?

No experiencer can be found. Although the mind tries to come up with a thousand theories why this is the case.

Is there an I in any form or shape (experiencer, thinker, doer) that could be seen, felt, smelled, heard, and/or tasted?

No.

Right now? And what about now? And NOW?

No, no, no.

At which point will you notice that these are just thoughts (not yours) that have nothing in common with reality?

Excellent question. My problem is with these countless theories claiming that the inability to find an 'I' in direct experience is not sufficient to prove that it doesn’t exist. We have already discussed this, but I’m still struggling with it.

I will re-read that part when we investigated this.

Would the "i" appear out of the blue?

No.

Is there future where this could happen?

I doesn’t think so.

Are you mistaking a subject in a sentence/language (the icon on your desktop), with an entity?

Probably :)

If it cannot be found in senses then it’s just a thought, an old copy and paste from the past. This is where the “lying” is :))). That is the only way to “deal” with these thoughts

Makes sense.

I’m happy to hear that!

:D

I will continue tomorrow.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Hearing music on my headphone = simply sounds (hearing)

How exactly do you know that experience will end?

Just speculation. This experience seems to happen from the perspective of the “body,” and we observe “other bodies” dying all the time.

I know that, to be precise, we never actually see a body - much less other bodies - just colors, sensations, sounds, etc.

It is a bunch of learned ideas.

And when exactly is the future again?

There is no future, nor past, it is just imagination/memories. There is only now. But this now follow some patterns that repeat again and again, like “people” dying.

Or, at least, thoughts say that now follow some patterns.

After NOW?

Impossible.

Do you see the absurdity of this?

To live at the mercy of thoughts? Yes.

Do you expect that somehow you will stop using pronouns in the "future"?

No. Just that its emptiness will be crystal clear.

It is too late here, I will continue tomorrow.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Hearing the rain = simply sounds (hearing)

Where is the looking?

Looking just happens, I don’t know where.

Where is that "I" that needs stuff???

Here, there are just sounds, sensations, colors, smells, tastes, and thoughts. None of these is an 'I.' This 'I' that needs things exists only in a story (thoughts).

That can control stuff???

An “I” in a story (thoughts) can’t control anything.

Check whether you have control over what is happening and when. How about now?

There is no control here.

Does THIS care about what you want THIS to be?

Experience doesn’t care about what this “I” in the story wants.

When you say a "need" (like hunger), which one of the appearing sensations is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it?

I can’t pinpoint it. Just thoughts say that something is in control or not.

What is in control of that?

Experience just happens.

“What is in control of the weather?,” what what would your answer be? Thoughts? Clouds? Or maybe the wind?

There is nothing in control of the weather. It is a movement of the whole.

At which point the “peace” becomes “boredom” and “anxiety” - “excitement”?

“Peace” seems to become other things when there are other sensations in the body, and these sensations are labeled as another thing, like “anxiety”.

It is just a different label to a different state, but no intrinsic link between the two.

Do you see any physical link between these labels and the sensations?

No.

How do you know that they are linked?

They aren’t.

Can a thought cause anything, or just describes/gives “meaning” to whatever is happening (i.e., sensation)?

Just describes.

Could this be a case where you are creating something out of nothing (i.e., fear of death, not being in control)?

Certainly :)

Can thoughts think or assume?

No.

Can they see or hear, or feel?

No.

The sensation is seen as it is NOW, and not how thought says it was.

Great pointer.

Is it true? Is it true that a “me” exists? Is it true that there is no “I”?

There is no “I” in the experience. If there is an “I” outside of the experience, that is not knowable.

Moreover, it doesn’t make sense to have an “I” outside of experience, either. All that we always have access to is experience, so how could any one even come up with the ideia that there is an “I” outside of experience. (I’m talking to myself here, haha)

Is it true that the story goes on by itself?

Yes. Although most of the time it doesn’t feel this way, because of thoughts.

Is it true that life goes on with or without the story?

Life doesn’t care about the story. The story just describes what is happening.

Are sounds and colours here if they don’t have labels?

Yes.

I will continue tomorrow.

Best,
Nelson

[Sunyata1]

Hi Rali,

Feeling the chair = simply sensations (feeling)

MUST? SHOULD?

Indeed. Who knows how reality should be.

Who says so?

Just thoughts/beliefs.

And to whom it is saying that?

In DE, it is happening to no one.

This belief could also be rooted in the assumption that “others” have their own experience. But how exactly do you know that?

I don’t. It is just speculation.

Can you experience this?

No.

Can you see a border where your supposed awareness ends and somebody else’s start?

No.

Do you experience other people’s awareness somehow?

No.

Can you see a reference point that marks “mine” and “not mine”?

No.

Everything that comes “your” way from “outside”, is it “outside”?

In DE, I can’t find an outside, nor inside.

There is a sound (“someone talking”). Where is the interpretation/meaning of that sound happening?

Here.

Can you ever leave your “reality bubble”?

No.

Is the listener or thinker needed for this to happen?

Probably not. It is just a feature of language.

Are there even hearing and thinking, or experiencing without the labels, OR just THIS?

Just this.

Is there an entity in any form or shape?

No. Just this.

Can you see anything like that?

I can’t.

Or there is just THIS/”reality”

Just this.

Do you see how many other assumptions are there?

Indeed. A lot of assumptions.

What is there when you drop all these?

There is just this.

Best,
Nelson

[poppyseed]

Hi Nelson
Are there any more questions left? :)

My turn ;)

I noticed that a lot of your answers sound like logical conclusions (not looking):

Moreover, it doesn’t make sense to have an “I” outside of experience, either. All that we always have access to is experience, so how could any one even come up with the ideia that there is an “I” outside of experience. (I’m talking to myself here, haha)

Good that you noticed :). How exactly are you talking to yourself ;)? Is there anything that makes “sense” in THIS, without the story?
Another one:

Is the listener or thinker needed for this to happen?

Probably not. It is just a feature of language.

Well, check! Do you see a listener? Is it needed then if all is happening without one?

Next:

Indeed. Who knows how reality should be.

Is reality knowable at all? It is “experienceable” but is it knowable? Or knowledge is just another story built of approximations/symbols?

What is that entity that is not sure?

The first impulse is to say that it is the “body”, which we have already investigated many times. But as you mentioned, this is just a copy-paste from the past.

Can a sensation be not sure?

“Peace” seems to become other things when there are other sensations in the body, and these sensations are labeled as another thing, like “anxiety”.

It is just a different label to a different state, but no intrinsic link between the two.

There is no future, nor past, it is just imagination/memories. There is only now. But this now follow some patterns that repeat again and again, like “people” dying.

Are there even discrete “states” or just pulsating never ending feeling? Do you see any borders that show that one state is finished and the next one starts? Are there really “patterns”/shapes? Are they always the same?

Are sounds and colours here if they don’t have labels?

Yes.

Let’s have another look!
Close your eyes and listen to a sound “in close proximity”. Now open your eyes and see what thoughts suggest is making the sound. Do you see a border of where the sounds is and where the colour is in experience? Are they happening in space? How can you differentiate between the two without the labels “colour” and “sound”? Are there sound and hearing; colour and seeing even? And if there is just flux of hearing_seeing where is the border between seeing and hearing? Are they dependent on eyes and ears? Or is it all just one inseparable “experience”?
Even if you are blind there is still seeing – “blackness”. Even if you are deaf there is still hearing of “silence” (whatever is present). Do you see that?

No experiencer can be found. Although the mind tries to come up with a thousand theories why this is the case.

Can what a thought says ever be true? If thought is just an approximation, a symbol, would the story/theories ever be true? So why bother looking for an answer in thoughts?

At which point will you notice that these are just thoughts (not yours) that have nothing in common with reality?

Excellent question. My problem is with these countless theories claiming that the inability to find an 'I' in direct experience is not sufficient to prove that it doesn’t exist. We have already discussed this, but I’m still struggling with it.

What theories are you referring to? Aren’t we just looking here? Is the absence of an “I” a theory or an observation???

We are not looking just to see that there is no “I”, we are looking at how “things” actually are. There is experiencing happening without experiencer as you can see (hopefully). So what makes then the experiencer necessary? Is there even experience happening without the labels (nothing to be experienced and no one to experience it) or just inseparable seeing_hearing_smelling_tasting_feeling_thinking or just THIS? There is the illusion of language – I did that, I saw that… but in reality there is just seeing_feeling_hearing…Some languages don’t even have a subject (closer to reality). There is the illusion of action, the illusion of time and space. Without these where, when and why can the I possible exist? “I” just points to here_now, nothing else. Can you see that? Do you see any proof for the existence of an “I”? If all that is available are the senses (nothing outside or inside them) can the “I” be anything else but an illusion, an abstraction, an assumption, a fairy tale, just language?

Love
Rali