Want to finally know the truth

[JackBurton]

Also, the question that arose which keeps getting turned over is,"Who is here that believes there is a me?" It's the mental equivalent of staring into a mirror facing a mirror.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin.

It can be hard to remember at the time the I thoughts come up, to do the inquiry. Generally it's happening after the fact.

The inquiry can only happen NOW, after the fact, is just thoughts, so rightly you can't inquire into that, but nothing is lost, use that as a reminder to look into your experience right now. Don't worry about 'I thoughts', they are thoughts 'about' I. look directly at the sense of self, try and find it, locate it specifically, as if searching for a location on a map. Where is it? If it exists, it must be somewhere right?

There was one instance where something felt different, maybe a feeling of overall lightness, but it didn't stick around.

All experiences come and go, this is not about getting into a permanent state of being. States like that can of course be enjoyed, but it's not the goal of the inquiry.

Also, the question that arose which keeps getting turned over is,"Who is here that believes there is a me?" It's the mental equivalent of staring into a mirror facing a mirror

Yeah, and that will go on forever if you expect the answer to appear as a thought.

Come back to the inquiry - explore the sense of
self itself and look whether it represents a real 'I'.
You don't need a question, just look.

[JackBurton]

This is what's so frustrating. It's not there. The reactions happen, the thoughts happen, the reference back to "I/me" peppered throughout all of it...but to stop and really look, I see only the thoughts and emotions, and the physical reactions that come with the thoughts sometimes (stress reactions, etc...) Yet the reference to "I/me" won't stop. Looking but never finding, yet somehow it's always there anyways. It's really frustrating. And then "Who is it that's frustrated?" The thoughts and feelings are definitely there, they must be coming from SOMEWHERE, and why would frustration be expressed in the absence of a self to be frustrated? The assumption has always been that the thoughts WERE the self, but they're not. They're noise, more often than not.

It's a hard place, it feels "stuck" - looking hard, but can't find anything and yet nothing changes.

[JackBurton]

Thinking thoughts last night about what "I' should have done or what "I" need to do and then trying to find who the "I" is that should be doing something or should have done something. Is it the body that should or shouldn't do? That's not the "I" so who are the two seeming parties involved in these thought discussions? Bantering back and forth in conversation, one feeling like intruding thoughts from somewhere else and the other feeling like "me." But not actually a me, because it's impossible to find either a source for the thoughts or a target for them to be received by. Yet they're being received and noticed, and acknowledged, and treated as though they come from a self that actually can't be found, when looked for.

It just feels like being on a merry go-round that can't be disembarked from now.

[filtah]

Ok Kevin, you are doing good.
Stay with it. This is impossible for 'you' to do and will push the mind to it's limit, just keep looking earnestly.

Yet the reference to "I/me" won't stop.

Does the have to stop? This narrative referencing a me will continue because our thoughts are silent speech.
They use the normal grammatical language structure with personal pronouns. The fact that these thoughts are arising is not actually a problem at all.

The next time, the thoughts talk again about 'I', have a look.

What is is labeled "I"?
Which sensory experience is called 'I' or 'me'?
What are the thoughts referencing with the word 'I'?

[JackBurton]

That is exactly the process of questioning that starts when no "I" is found. What IS being found, if no self is found upon close examination? Always just beliefs, feelings, memories, thoughts, sometimes sensations, either connected to an emotion or just physical input. But no source, no thing that they belong to that could be called "self." If vigilant and paying attention, it happens over and over, never finding anything but the various thoughts, being referred to collectively as "I."

It doesn't make sense that it can be seen over and over again this way, but nothing changes. It's like being told again and again that Santa isn't real, yet still believing it. Some stubborn insistence that it's a lie, or just a refusal to see the truth. It makes no sense, but then it's still there. I'm left wondering "What's it going to take?" And then immediately realize that yet again, there is no "I" to wonder anything...its just a thought suggesting that there is something yet to happen which will cause a desired result. A belief, again, in a self who can do something about this...but as you said, "I" cannot do anything. Infuriating. It's very challenging.

[JackBurton]

In fact the question keeps coming up, who is it that's even doing the looking? Who is it that's even coming up with the answers? All that is actually seen is thoughts.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin.

Thanks for your patience with my slower responses recently.

Yeah it's frustrating as hell, I can remember being there.
There was a clear understanding, and overtly, it wasn't really believable, but apparently some unconscious belief still remained.

Just keep looking, this is what does the work.

All I can say is that frustration resolved itself and there was a huge sense of relief. A relief of not needing to know, to fix, or to do anything. It will probably be different in your experience.

The truth is staring you in the face in every moment, it doesn't have to be known by the mind. Relaxing is helpful, just keep coming back to the looking, explore the sense of 'i am looking' - is there someone really looking? where is it? What is here?

Does the totality of thoughts constitutes a tangible I?

Also, do you have any expectations about what needs to happen?
How seeing through the illusion, would be different from your experience now? Just be honest and look, it's important to own expectations before they can be set free. They can be subtle.


Maybe try another exercise:

Are You the Thinker?

Also investigate how the thinking process works.

Sit quietly and take a few deep, slow breaths. Then allow the breath to flow on its own. Notice the thoughts as they arise and take about 5 min. for each question. You don't have to do them all at once.

1. Where do thoughts come from, where do they go to?

2. Can you predict the next thought, and if you don't like it, can you stop it from arising?

3. Think of a number between 1 and 49. Did you know the number before it ap- peared?

4. Is there a' thinker'?

[JackBurton]

The question you asked, "Is there someone really looking?" This is what is being butted up against now. No, it's just thoughts. And that means the looking is just thoughts. The questioning is happening but who is the questioner? These are thoughts too. And where is it all coming from, if not from a "me?" Just consciousness babbling away incessantly for its own entertainment? And to this point, the investigation into the thinker...

1. Where do thoughts come from, where do they go to?

It has been said that thoughts are the "activity of consciousness." From the view seen here, they just seem to arise and disappear in the same way. Sometimes they get latched onto, repeated over and over, or trigger a chain of other thoughts. But each time, they just vanish from awareness eventually. There are many that recur, though.

2. Can you predict the next thought, and if you don't like it, can you stop it from arising?

There is no way to predict what the next one will be, a prediction would be just another thought anyway. There is the idea here that a prediction would be self-fulfilling, as it would result in the predicted thought, but the strange thing is...I can't say that a single thought comes intentionally, anymore. I encounter situations that appear to call for thought and then thoughts come, but why? Because "I" said that "I need to think about this?" or is that just the self attempting to take credit for something that was already happening?

As for whether I can stop it, it does SEEM like it. It feels like I stop thoughts I don't like all the time, usually with other thoughts like just a mental "no." This is what makes it feel like I am the thinker of the thoughts. I may not seem to control what they are, but I can shut them down. However, it happens in mid-stream and it's because I seem to already know where it's going before that internal language has finished being "spoken."

3. Think of a number between 1 and 49. Did you know the number before it ap- peared?

No, it came completely at random. I can't even say why. It was 17...no rhyme or reason to it.

4. Is there a' thinker'?

The thoughts are coming from somewhere. But it now feels more like being a receiver of thoughts, not the thinker of them.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin.

And that means the looking is just thoughts

Can a thought see?
What can thoughts actually do?

As for whether I can stop it, it does SEEM like it. It feels like I stop thoughts I don't like all the time, usually with other thoughts like just a mental "no." This is what makes it feel like I am the thinker of the thoughts. I may not seem to control what they are, but I can shut them down.

When you shut down an unwelcome thought the next time, watch out for which entity does that.

[JackBurton]

Can a thought see?
What can thoughts actually do?

This is true. The seeing isn't a thought but what is "seen" is a thought. Thoughts don't do anything by themselves, they appear and disappear. Something appears to make a choice whether to interact with them, believe in them, trust them, and allow them to influence behavior or further thoughts though. And to that point...

When you shut down an unwelcome thought the next time, watch out for which entity does that.

It seems impossible to determine. If there is no self, no manager here, then who is there to manage the thoughts in this way? Even to cut them off seems like a degree of management.

A thought arises and is noticed. The truth or value of it is questioned/evaluated, which is another thought. Then there is a thought questioning where this thought came from. The same place the question about it came from, or somewhere else? Is there more than one source for these thoughts that are being noticed? And then the noticing of the thought itself...who or what is doing that? And every thought or observation that arises after, looking for the noticer of the thoughts that sees them and interacts with them or not, but butting up against this question of "Can the seer actually see itself?"

This is grueling. It feels like I'm just running in circles now.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,

Sorry again for the slow response, work has been very busy recently,
I'm going to try and make more of an effort to reply daily.

Something appears to make a choice whether to interact with them, believe in them, trust them, and allow them to influence behavior or further thoughts though

If something appears to make a choice, you should be able to find that thing? Thoughts may say there is something there, but ignore them, just for a moment, and look to see if there really is something.
Choice happens, just like reading happens, and writing happens, but where is the self 'doing' all these things? You can't trust what thoughts say, but you can trust what is seen.

A thought arises and is noticed. The truth or value of it is questioned/evaluated, which is another thought. Then there is a thought questioning where this thought came from. The same place the question about it came from, or somewhere else? Is there more than one source for these thoughts that are being noticed? And then the noticing of the thought itself...who or what is doing that? And every thought or observation that arises after, looking for the noticer of the thoughts that sees them and interacts with them or not, but butting up against this question of "Can the seer actually see itself?

You are getting into a tailspin of thought after thought, trying to figure out the previous thought. This will go on forever, it is indeed grueling, as you rightly see!


Relax - really, this is important. Looking is happening. In your actual experience, that's all there is. It's simple. There is no self that can be found in direct experience. Notice this, then just pay attention when the 'sense' of self arises. What is it exactly that makes whatever arrises 'self'? What is it exactly, where is it exactly? Notice, but ignore thoughts 'about' this sense of self. See what is actually here. Nothing is hidden.

[JackBurton]

I recognized the other day as I was talking to someone that there was no "thought" involved, the talking was just happening and the words were just coming. It was a weird feeling to realize that this was going on without management, just words flowing out. In a weird way I wondered who it was that was actually doing the talking in that moment. "Myself" would have been the answer before starting this process but that's clearly not the case.

You're right, I get caught in a feedback loop of thought when I think I'm "looking." I feel like I don't know HOW to look, it always devolves into a thought stream. Maybe because nothing is actually being seen?

I need to be more diligent about looking every time the sense of self arises. It happens so fast and so imperceptibly that I miss it. I'll keep working on it.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,

How's it going?

I think you are being more than diligent with the inquiry.
It doesn't matter if you miss an opportunity - its only a reminder to take a look NOW. Don't worry about HOW to look, looking is happening, already. You can just relax into that. Curiousity may arise naturally. Relax a little, and just look. If frustration arises, smile - notice where your attention is and come back to the looking. Keep it very simple and immediate.

[JackBurton]

Same, still on the merry go round. Looking but not finding anything but thoughts, feelings, beliefs, all being packaged up as an entity and referred back to as if it's what I am. The identification still happens, efforts are being made to catch it when it happens and look closer at it, but it's a definitely a frustrating place to be.