Want to finally know the truth

[JackBurton]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? In moments of presence, in the absence of thought or referencing past or future, it's easy to notice that there is no sense of a "me" but just awareness and experience happening. I can see that what I take to be a self is a collection of memories, thoughts, beliefs, and opinions, an "ego" I suppose, connected to a body and mind and senses.

What are you looking for at LU? The truth. I have been deconstructing from the Christian religion over the past year or so and was disillusioned, veering toward atheism. My wife convinced me to read The Power Of Now and I saw the truth of it. Felt like the truth, totally different feeling from my experience with religion. I want to know the truth about what this reality is, and why I can't shake the feeling of being an active participant in it when it's so apparent everything happens with no intervention from an assumed self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Guidance? Help with where to look and HOW to look. I have had moments of recognition and even deep peace through inquiry. It started one morning when I awoke seemingly already pondering "Who am I in the absence of thought?" I stripped away everything until nothing remained, but it was not nothing. More like empty fullness and vast potential, unmanifested. I immediately somehow made the leap that this also meant I was everything. I started having various experiences since then, ringing in the ears, energy experiences... I don't know what any of it means, if it means anything. I just need help, I don't know what is needed.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Christianity, so basically just blind faith in doctrine and "prayer" in the hope that one would reach a compassionate God who might grant my wishes, like some kind of genie, if I'm good enough. I have read The Power of Now and Perfect Brilliant Stillness, a bit of I Am That, watched some videos on YouTube, and done some of my own quiet meditation by just trying to clear the mind and be present. I have done inquiry but aside from that morning where I had what felt like a deeper insight, inquiry seems to devolve into too much thought and logical reasoning. It doesn't go deep enough since that first time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[filtah]

Hi,

My name is Phil and I would be happy to guide you.

Some prerequisites:

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Some housekeeping guidelines:

1 .Commitment: When we get started with this inquiry, it’s very important to keep the process rolling.
I ask that you post here at least once a day, or every second day.
If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts (not the content).
Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.
If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses.
It's good practice to copy / paste questions asked into Word, answer them there, then copy / paste back into your thread.
Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!


Communication guidelines:

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written. I’ll usually highlight them in blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it.
Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


OK, let's get started!

What would you like for me to call you?
Also, what time zone are you in?

Who am I in the absence of thought?

Thoughts will never disappear, and they will continue to use the normal linguistic structure, with personal pronouns.
They are also not a problem, they don't need to be 'stripped away' with the inquiry we will be doing here.

Instead how would you answer this question:

Who am I in the presence of thoughts?

With love,
Phil

[JackBurton]

Thanks Phil! My name is Kevin, thanks for offering to help with this! The two disclaimers have been read, as has the Gateless Gate e-book (most of it). I'm in the Mountain time zone.

This week, I've refrained from reading any other sources of information or looking at YouTube videos, and have just been doing self-inquiry in the vein of the stories read in the e-book. Every time the "I/me" thought arises, it's examined. That is exhausting, because it has been found to be almost constant. Surprising to really see just how much it happens, honestly. No wonder the "self" is so sticky...it's being constantly reinforced, all day every day.

Who am I in the presence of thoughts?

In the presence of thoughts, I am the noticer of the thoughts...most of the time. This is increasingly the case these days whereas before, it was very common for the mind to become locked in a "thought train" that completely removed awareness and focus from the present moment. I once believed the thoughts were coming from a "me" but upon closer looking, it's clear that they often come completely unbidden/unasked and even when there is a felt intention to think about a particular subject (bills, etc...), I can't say with confidence that any direct control is being exerted over what those thoughts end up being. It may be predictable occasionally, and it might "sound" like "me" internally (a sense of "sounding" like my voice but not being audible, so more of a feeling), but in the end it seems they just arise on their own.

[JackBurton]

Thought it was worth mentioning that the realization just arose in considering the question, that there is actually no manager to anything that is arising in thought or happening in life, that there has been an illusion of control but there hasn't been control. Even the realizations that are happening and everything that is currently arising surrounding this subject of Awakening has been happening independently, without the intervention of a self. The feeling that arose was like the self is a passenger on this ride.

[JackBurton]

In trying to solve pressing financial issues, there has been the worry and feeling of needing to be a "doer" today. But I realized at one point while sitting n front of the computer, that the process of coming up with ideas and pursuing them was happening at that moment and the feeling of a self was not involved. It was like the mind was "in the zone" working on possible solutions and the body was taking action on what was brought up, but there was no "self" that could take credit for this process. The self wants to take credit for bringing the subject up, or kicking off the process, but life did that. The process just started on its own.

It seems like such a small distinction on the surface, but it goes really deep. The self takes the credit and bears the blame for almost everything that happens, feels like.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
pleased to meet you!

Great, thanks for all of that.
We can get started, I'd be happy to be your guide :)

Good that you have read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, its a great resource with some really powerful pointing.
You seem to be looking deeply already with lots of clarity.

Sorry I've not been able to reply sooner.

Just so you know, I am not a very experienced guide, although the realisation here is clear since over a year now. I'm working with a very experienced mentor, so you are in good hands, but this may result in my own responses to you being a bit delayed as everything I'm writing is checked and approved first.

I will have to come back to you with feedback on your comments, in my next response because of this, but I just wanted to touch base to let you know that i'm here, and you are doing great with the inquiry so far.

I will get straight to the point with this question however.

What comes up when you read:
There is no self, never was, and never will be. There is nobody who is in control.
Describe what is felt, as well as any thoughts in response to this statement.

With love,
Phil

[JackBurton]

What comes up when you read:
There is no self, never was, and never will be. There is nobody who is in control.
Describe what is felt, as well as any thoughts in response to this statement.

At this moment, because this is something that has been getting rolled over and over in the mind for a while now, there isn't the emotional reaction to it and it has the feeling of truth, based on how things are currently being experienced and looked at closely. Initially there was a reaction of skepticism or even dismissiveness, then surprise when the evidence started to mount under scrutiny. Then there was a certain amount of mental gymnastics, where it felt like the mind was trying to "prove" the existence of a self and kept failing. As the awareness of the self not being real started to deepen, other realizations started to pop up, such as there being no actual choices, because the conditions that are set at the time of an action result in the only action that could be taken. While waiting for a passenger while driving Uber, the realization came that there was no such thing as waiting because what was transpiring was exactly what had to be at that moment, and then that every moment is exactly as it has to be. There was a moment of peace in that. But then the "doer" still tries to assert itself, and the feeling persists that something needs to be done, or that there is control to be had somewhere.

To have these moments of realization or clarity and yet still be dealing with the nagging self, or the doer, or the egoic reactions to things, and the desire to take control somehow, makes it obvious that there are still conditions that need to be met for the gate to be passed through. This is when it's hard not to feel "doership" is needed, although there is also the knowledge that things are happening as they are and in the only way they can, so there is a certain amount of peace in that knowledge...and a feeling of inevitability.

Hopefully that isn't too verbose, or off-topic? You asked for any thoughts in response to that statement ;)

[JackBurton]

Wanted to just elaborate on the "doer" impulse...it arises in the feeling of a need to "plan" for things, or to set an intention to think about something and come up with a solution, or is triggered by thoughts that say things like "I should" or "I need to." It feels like the need or impulse arises in thought to take an action and then the mind immediately slaps the "I/me/mine" label to it, almost imperceptibly so that it feels like there's ownership of it.

[JackBurton]

I am concerned about how effective this can be if there is no actual guiding happening for 2-3 days at a time. I am very committed and need a guide that is able to help me. I understood that mentorship requires review of posts but I am at a point where I want this work to be daily. Please let me know if that's not possible because in that case I'd prefer to wait for a more experienced guide.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

I'll do my best to keep the responses regular.

So it seems this sense of a 'doer' is a fixation here.

Let's start the inquiry with something to do, an exercise:

In your home / restaurant / etc.
prepare / order 2 different drinks.

Put the two drinks next to each other in front of you on the table.

Look at one drink and think about all the advantages and disadvantages of that drink.

Then look at the other drink and again think about all the advantages and disadvantages.

Then close your eyes for half a minute.

Open them again and pick up a drink


Is there anyone, or anything that made the choice?

How did you decide which drink to pick up?

[JackBurton]

Is there anyone, or anything that made the choice?

It seems to happen as a result of some calculus in the brain, after the fact I think the mind starts to subtly try to give credit to the self by explaining the reasons for the choice, which were already known as they were considered before I closed my eyes for 30 seconds.

How did you decide which drink to pick up?

Hard to know exactly, the assumption is that the pros and cons of each were weighed and based on the current conditions at the time of the choice, one came out on top. It wasn't the result of conscious thought though at the time of the choice, and the feeling of self only came in at the end, after the decision was made.

I have actually pondered this question of choice a lot, or the absence of choice. It seems that the choices get made based on all available information at the time, which leads me to believe that there is no such thing as a choice because there can only be one action taken in those conditions, for a particular person at that time.

I've also considered the timing of decisions and how that happens. I was thinking of taking a drink several days ago and considered the choice of when that happens. As I was considering it, I picked up the drink and had some. It was spontaneous, there was no plan. Definitely felt the absence of Self in that moment, the action was just happening based on whatever conditions were set at the time.

This is something that is understood intellectually but it is hard to shake the feeling that there is the need for doing in many things. Particularly as it relates to things with a significant impact on my life in the lives of my family, like finances. It can be seen that there really is no control to be had, but that collides head first with a very strong feeling that doing needs to happen. Control is a big issue in many parts of my life, a desire for control or attempting to gain control. Some of that I have chalked up to autism (I am Asperger's) and some from my mother. I understand intellectually that these are just memories and therefore Just Thoughts, but it exerts a very strong influence regardless.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your detailed responses.
It's clear you are looking deeply into this.

As I was considering it, I picked up the drink and had some. It was spontaneous, there was no plan

Great noticing! Perhaps it is always this way, but oftentimes thoughts come in, claiming ownership in some way?

Can any actual evidence be found that thoughts are responsible for any decision at all?

We need to get some fundamental principals clear, as your answers suggest quite a lot of analysis. This is ok, but we need to be looking at this in a different way for the inquiry to be effective.

It is really important to discern the difference between direct experience and thinking about it. At first it can be hard to tell the difference, so here's an analogy which may help clarify that.


Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Control is a big issue in many parts of my life, a desire for control or attempting to gain control

Is there anything wrong with control? It's certainly experienced as something that happens, we don't have to deny that.
What we are really interested here is looking for the controller.
Its assumed to be there, but is it?
Can it be found in your experience?

Let's expand on the previous exercise by looking at this more closely.
So for example, when you are next able to sit down with a drink, look closely into what is happening. As you pick up the drink and lead the container towards your mouth, notice the control over all the movement that is happening.

There is control
Is there a controller though?
Where is it?
What does it look like?

Relax, take your time, and look closely :)

[JackBurton]

Definitely understand the difference between thinking about something and direct experience. Elaborating on thoughts I'd had unrelated to the exercise yesterday wasn't meant to indicate that I had only thought about the exercise, instead of doing it. I had an iced tea and a water, gave thought to the pros and cons of each, closed my eyes for thirty seconds, and when I opened them I drank the water. Immediately after, the mind started saying WHY I chose water over iced tea. They were reasons I'd already thought about in the time before closing my eyes. When my eyes were closed, I wasn't actually thinking about any of those facts, just counting to 30. But it occurred to me after the fact when the voice started rattling off the reasons in my mind that it was "self" taking credit for the decision.

Can any actual evidence be found that thoughts are responsible for any decision at all?

I've been wrestling with this one a lot. There's a feeling like thinking about something, followed by a decision that seems to support whatever conclusion was come to in the thinking, supports the belief that the thinking inspired the action. The drinking of the water and the reasons stated for that decision in the mind reinforces the belief that the decision came from the thoughts. But then, there are TONS of thoughts with very good reasons supporting a particular action (like eating right, etc...) that aren't acted on, in spite of how much thought or how much emotion are behind it. So then the self gets blamed for not being disciplined enough, etc... But I can see how it may just be mental gymnastics to try and prove some causal relationship between thinking and actions that doesn't actually exist.

As you pick up the drink and lead the container towards your mouth, notice the control over all the movement that is happening.

There is control
Is there a controller though?
Where is it?
What does it look like?

The brain is apparently the controller of the action, and the body then follows the instructions. There was reading the instructions and noting what to pay attention to, followed by the action which happened naturally as it usually does, and then the drinking. After putting the cup down, the process was repeated once more after thoughts came that it should be done again, to see if anything different was noticed. This wasn't a thought after the fact trying to give credit to a self for doing something, it was a thought that FELT like it led to a subsequent action. Very confusing.

[JackBurton]

I'm actually struggling to decide whether the thinking about taking a second drink to see if anything else was noticed actually happened before the action started, or if it came early in the action as the cup was rising off the desk. It could have been after the action had already started, which supports the idea that there was only credit being taken and not thoughts leading to an action.

[filtah]

No worries Kevin,
I wasn't presuming you hadn't done the exercise, but thanks for clarifying :)

This wasn't a thought after the fact trying to give credit to a self for doing something, it was a thought that FELT like it led to a subsequent action

Ok great. what does it feel like? Can it actually be felt, in the body? Where can it be felt exactly? Look there.

The brain is apparently the controller of the action, and the body then follows the instructions.

Is this actually true? Can you find a brain in your sensorial experience?
Look in your experience - Where is this controller? it has to be there, right?

I'm actually struggling to decide whether the thinking about taking a second drink to see if anything else was noticed actually happened before the action started, or if it came early in the action as the cup was rising off the desk. It could have been after the action had already started, which supports the idea that there was only credit being taken and not thoughts leading to an action.

If it's unclear, then just take another look. Repeat the experiment a few more times if necessary.
Regardless of if thoughts come before or after any action, how can you know that are responsible for the action itself?