Interested in exploring self/no-self

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I may be equating with dropping the "choice belief" with dropping my control over my life.

You ALREADY aren't in contrôle of your life.
If you do, tell me what do you control about exactly?

When said "my life" what are you talking about?

If you have controle why do you feel pain and any inconfortable emotion ?

Already you have changed my mind: I now believe that any given mental state was not my choice, and I do not have the choice to change it at will by sheer mental effort. This includes my giving the choice belief a lot of credit. And it includes me not being able to give it less credit until I get it less credit for whatever reason. I hope the world arranges itself in such a way that I let go even more.

There is nothing to lose. Is like a baby in sitting in a electric car that his parent have the remote controle of.

The fact that the baby belief or doesn't belief he is in control is irrelevant for the destination the car is taking.

BUT it make a huge difference for the way he will experience the ride if he desperately WANT to be in controle. And if you belief you are that mean you want to be in control.

The fear of letting go of the control because "your life is going to hell" is a excuse you use. The fact is that "your life" is embedded with LIFE. And you are in control of none of them.

I do not see this is as proof. I see it as an absence of evidence of choice existing in such a way that I can pinpoint it with my conscious mind. For whatever reason, I still need to be convinced that choice is ENTIRELY after-the-fact attribution. It could also be "something I feel but can't poinpoint." Why not? Anyway, I am thinking about this a lot... Hopefully some kind of understanding will emerge.

It is impossible to prove a negative. At some point you have to shift paradigme completely.

So the way to go is by direct experimentation in day to day life.

Spend a day in controlling your life. See how much you have power over AND how you feel.

Spend a day in surrender into the moment as it is.
See how powerless you are and how you feel.

When you will experiment directly how much energy it take to believe you are in control and how much relaxing and openness is in surrendering to the moment. Your system will naturally chose the belief that feel more expansive.

I am trying to do this. I am able to regularly remember that my mental and emotional states are not something I choose. But I am not able to take on the perspective that my external actions and speech are "just happening."

Nothing have to change. The perspective of being ij control doesn't have to dissappear completely for you to feel the effect and relaxation of the surrendering.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Thank you. I will take some time and see if this perspective can settle in.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

The site was down for a few days.
Did you try to post in those days?

David

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

I did not try to post.

For 3-4 days, I lived deeply from the perspective that my state of mind was not in my control. This was a very nice experience. Although that perspective ceased being viscerally primary, I still had a few weeks of heightened well-being.

Now, I am back to where I was before. A lot of emotional pain, and a kind of internal striving to change it. Now, I have some comfort in knowing that I can't turn off either the pain OR the striving to change it, but still it is a very stuck feeling.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

This is interesting.

Now, I am back to where I was before—a lot of emotional pain, and a kind of internal striving to change it. Now, I have some comfort in knowing that I can't turn off either the pain OR the striving to change it, but still, it is a very stuck feeling.

When you write: I am back to where I was before.
It makes me believe that this state of emotional pain has become your standard, your norm.
Be open to the possibility that the actual norm should be having a nice experience and being in emotional distress is not.

The trick is to feel the emotional state without becoming that state. To feel without being the feeling.
When there is sadness you feel it without falling into the story: I am a poor human being sad and lonely doomed to die in suffering etc....

I wrote that it can be useful:
SAILINGDealing with confusion


Sometimes we have the wind on our back, and everything is seems great. Then, the wind change direction and we have the wind in front, and everything seems deem, confuse, and dark.
Now it seems that the wind has change direction for you.

My purpose here is to point to you the direction of noticing. From where you will see with clarity that the “separate self” is a mental construct. I am showing you the DIRECT PATH to that place inside you. Once this is cleared up, we can take care of drama, emotions, sensations, perceptions, and everything else if needed. BUT direct path does not mean straight line.

Imagine that you are on the sea in a sailing boat. You know were you want to go. But the wind is blowing headwind. What do you do when you know where you have to go but the environment is pushing you back and away of that direction?

You sail close hauled.
Check that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XljcBVLFrZM
https://i.stack.imgur.com/nJJsH.jpg
https://hatterassailing.org/wp-content/ ... oad-64.jpg



So, now you are sailing up wind. The headwind of your memory, trauma, represses emotion, thoughts, suffering, pain is pushing you back. On the top of that there is the biological habit and psychosocial habit that will tend to draw you back into those state. This is the headwind of the separate self.

The first thing to avoid now is to go into the “no go” zone. That is to go straight into the emotion drama etc… Search the “close-hauled” position inside you. Where you can notice thoughts, feel emotions, take care of the biological need of the body, having a social life AND moving deeper inside you. You “use” the headwind to go forward.

We are circumventing the pushback energy of our separate self. Simply know that we are no negating anything. You will have to deal with those energies later but first you must find a solid ground.

Does that make sense to you?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Thank you for those insights.

Does that make sense to you?

It does make sense to me. I am very much focusing on either (a) not trying too hard or (b) paying attention to how the body feels. Sometimes I feel stuck in the emotional headwinds, and sometimes I forget the self-as-obstacle.

It does come and go and change even in the small amount of time between when I wrote the last message and this one.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Sorry for the delay. I am moving into a new country those few weeks and I have little time to give.
Next week I will be installed in my new home and I will have more time.


How are you traveling?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

No worries. You have responded to me many times and have given me much of your time and effort. I do not mind waiting for weeks or months. Moving countries must be hard.

I am in New York, visiting family. Their mind state is very much from the past, and I am practicing not getting caught up in it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

“If you think you’re enlightened, go spend a week with your family.” - Ram Dass

Far from it :)

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Family is the greatest moment to explore!!!!

Try this:
From perceptions to sensations

Do this exploration not only on your meditation cushion but also in everyday life. It will be more fruitful in the “mondain” situation. Do this exploration every 30min or as often as you can. It must be done with a sense of curiosity and joyfulness. If you start to feel strain and effort stop immediately.

Purpose
The purpose is to train in diving into sensations without doing anything about them. Also to see that the triggers of sensation can be “outside” but the sensation is always in your experience.


There are 2 explorations. Try to alternate between the two.

1 –Repulsion
Look at the room where you are. Let your eyes move around and explore the room and the objects within it without effort. It can be a room but you can also do it outside, at the supermarket, metro, etc…

Find an object that you feel repulsion when you look at it. The repulsion can be very strong: “That’s disgusting” or very subtle: “This flower is strange.”

When you find this object. When I say object, it can be a person, a wall, a colour anything. Try to feel in your body the sensation that corresponds to that repulsion.

When you find this sensation stay with sensation dropping seeing and thinking all together to feel the sensation fully. Don’t try to change, modify it. Just feel it.

2 -Attraction
Do the same process as the repulsion but now with an object that you feel attraction to.
Again it can be strong: “That’s a tasty chocolate cake” or subtle “I like this table”.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

I did this exercise sometimes when I remembered. It's one that I find interesting.

Nothing specific to report. I was able to look at bodily sensations in both liking and disliking.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I was quite busy those weeks sorry for the delay.

I feel that this guidance has lost its momentum. I wonder what we can do to bring back an energy of exploration and curiosity.

First I want to ensure that you are still interested in this exploration and are willing and available to make space for it.

If you are here are the two options I see:

A) I can see if another guide is available. This change can support the exploration to start fresh. Also, bring some new energy that can be enlightening for you.

B) You tell me where you are and where you are struggling now with realizing the illusion of the separate self. And we will take it from there and see what happens.

Let me know what option feels right for you.

Take care

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

I agree that our momentum has been lost. I think I will probably stop with this line of investigation. I have a tough time remembering to do the exercises when the teachings are by forum text only. I have an in-person teacher for my meditation and that is significantly more motivational. It feels integrated into my life. I just don't know if I can get myself to do enough of the work here given the format of the interactions.

That said, I had a very deep understanding of how I cannot choose or control my state of mind. It gave me 3ish days of a very different and easier consciousness, and I am grateful for that experience. I have a sense of what I may one day experience more regularly.

I am very grateful for the time and energy you have put it into these conversations.

Thank you very much.

-Sergey

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I am sorry to hear that the format of this forum is not working for you. I am happy to hear that you found a teacher to work with in person and that you found value in it! I wish you all the best for the continuation of this unfolding mystery that is Life.

You can still post here or contact me if anything changes for you.

You are also invited to weekly meetings via Zoom. I will start from next week.
Here is the information:

• Wednesday at 20:30 to 22:00 time of CEST (Central European Summer Time - Madrid)
Link:https://zoom.us/j/95842219562?pwd=wbxVU ... 2iiamUUa.1


It was a pleasure conversing with you.

Take care ^^

David Bonny