Interested in exploring self/no-self

[OfTheField]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
On a meditation retreat they told us not to sleep for the last 3 days. On the third day I saw this many-times-a-second labeling process that assigned the labels of "mine" or "me" or "sort of mine" or "not mine" to all inputs to mind. The felt feeling of a separate "self" is maybe congealed out of this labeler.

What are you looking for at LU?
My meditation teacher suggested that I could benefit from 3 things: (a) lovingkindness practice, (b) looking for self, and (c) do-nothing meditation. I want to try (b) here. I see the meditative path as a global path of decreased tension / increased smoothness in consciousness. The "self" is maybe an artifact that is partially responsible for regularly producing mental tensions, and maybe if I realize directly that it doesn't exist in some sense, I'd be able to reduce tension.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct human interactions can often produce unexpected and wonderful things. I think another person who has understood something can help me understand it by transmitting something of their felt experience. When I read some gifted meditative writers like Shunryu Suzuki or Pema Chodron, I think I can feel something of the mind they've cultivated, just through their text. I hope for something like that here, but I don't expect it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditated for 5 years from 2009 to 2014. It went poorly - I became too militant and high-pressure and hated it. Then I quit.
Restarted meditating about 1.5 years ago, much softer and gentler. Tried a few meditation teachers and found one I like. Have read too many Buddhist books, listened to lots of dharma talks, etc etc. Always questioning everything. Endlessly seeking to understand, reduce and befriend suffering.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Windaway]

Dear OfTheField ,

(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. It’s great to see you here!
My name is David, and I’ll be glad to assist in exploring your experience.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in the indochina time —GMT +7

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

[OfTheField]

Hello David,

Thanks for replying!

My first name is Sergey; please call me that. I'm in GMT-8.

I have read (1), (2) and (3), and agree to them.

I will do my best to reply daily from here on out, and ready to start.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Let’s begin with this exploration:

For this exploration, read one phrase at a time. For each phrase, follow this procedure:

1 - Read the statement, then close your eyes.
2 - Repeat the statement aloud (or in your mind) three times.
3 -Then let go of thought.
4 - Notice your body's reaction.
5 - Stay in that space as long as it feels right.
6 - Move to the next prase.

Tip: It's not about how long you can explore. Whether it's one minute or two hours, it really does not matter. What matters is the quality of your observation and your curiosity. Remember, more is not always better.


Here are the phrases:

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.



* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.



* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?



* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?




Write down your insights (or the absence of them) and describe your sensations during this exploration.

[OfTheField]

Thank you.

Here is what happened.

HERE is the only place in space that I experience.

Nothing

NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.

Some chest heaviness, a bit of tingling there.

What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?

A frustration. A voice that says, peevishly, "I am seeking well-being."

What is it that is here and now that I don't want?

The phrase had some unclear but palpable impact, a puzzlement appeared that seemed to be about how the rejection of what's here now is some kind of fundamental error, but it is being made automatically in my body/mind. Then my mind cleared of thoughts for a few seconds, after which it started to compose this text.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Before exploring who is the one frustrated.
Before exploring the frustration itself.

Let's start by being clear on what is here and now.
Let's be clear on what it IS that is being rejected.

With this exploration:

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

I tried to do this when I could remember for the past bunch of hours. A few observations:

(1) As soon as I labeled something, it seemed to recede, and become less intense.
(2) Labeling certain things made them easier to experience, like some chest pain.
(3) Labeling other things (looking at a trash can, smelling the room) was mostly featureless.
(4) Labeling experiences of family members felt wrong, somehow morally problematic.
(5) The labeling seemed to be always referring to the past. It was not possible to label and directly experience at once.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

You didn’t follow the exercise instruction but maybe it wasn’t clear enough.

The purpose of this exercise is to make sure we that when we talk about Direct Experience (DE). We are talking about the same thing you and me.
For you to know anything it must appear in your experience. You know the world, object, and people “out there” through your experience. What we are interested at this moment is to be clear about what this experience looks like in your Direct Experience.
Without interring into too much theory here. We can say that is your experience is made of 6 senses:

* Seeing

* Hearing

* Smelling

* Tasting

* Sensation
(sensation of inside: proprioception, kinesthetic, interoception)
(sensation of outside object/people or touching)

* Thinking

For example:
when you look at an object all you see is color.
When you think about your family or a pink elephant all there in Direct Experience is thought.
When you listen, a bird singing all there is in Direct Experience is sound.
When
Etc….
Is that clear?

If that is clear try to go thought your day labeling daily activities simply with what is actually here; colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
Watchig by the widow = color
Hearing the traffic = hearing
Drinking coffee = tasting

You do not have to report everything you break down like that but at least write 5 examples with this exact format.

[OfTheField]

Ah, I think I understand. I focused in this way when I could remember for the past 4 or 5 hours. Some examples:

a garbage can in the bathroom = color
my jeans = color
the hum of the heater = hearing
bread and olives = tasting
wondering about this practice = thinking
sitting = sensing

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

That's great. Now that we have are on the same page about Direct Experience.

Let's clear up thoughts with this Exploration:

Finding the Gap
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

I have a regular "do-nothing" meditation practice, so your instructions are somewhat familiar to me. I did it during this morning's meditation and also throughout the rest of the day so far.

When I notice a thought, it ends instantly, like a bubble bursting. I have read some meditation instructions in the past that say "Watch your thoughts come and go. Do nothing with them but allow them. Let them end by themselves." However, when I notice a thought and allow it, it ends instantly, as if cut with a sword. This does not seem like a conscious process that I have control over.

After that there is usually some pause. The pause lasts from 0.001 seconds to ~5s. If I just wait and keep my attention energized, I can often spot the next thought very quickly after it starts, even when it is in its "pre-verbal stage" (my thoughts are usually voiced). This requires some tension, which is not really advised in my normal meditation practice, so I generally try to "wait" with a relaxed attitude, which means it takes longer to notice that the next thought has occurred.

The nature of the waiting is interesting. Since I cannot put my attention directly on the "place" where thought arise (as they seem to arise somehow "behind" me), the attention has no particular place to go, and often autonomously drifts to non-thought sensations, like sounds or body feelings, until thoughts are noticed the next time.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Feedback

When I notice a thought, it ends instantly, like a bubble bursting. I have read some meditation instructions in the past that say "Watch your thoughts come and go. Do nothing with them but allow them. Let them end by themselves." However, when I notice a thought and allow it, it ends instantly, as if cut with a sword. This does not seem like a conscious process that I have control over.

That's good. You seem to see that thought are empty and meaningless. Furthermore you seem to already have a clarity by being able to notice them.

After that there is usually some pause. The pause lasts from 0.001 seconds to ~5s. If I just wait and keep my attention energized, I can often spot the next thought very quickly after it starts, even when it is in its "pre-verbal stage" (my thoughts are usually voiced). This requires some tension, which is not really advised in my normal meditation practice, so I generally try to "wait" with a relaxed attitude, which means it takes longer to notice that the next thought has occurred.

Thank you to have put some effort for this exploration. But yes, always follow relaxation. This process is about remember to relax in our experience. So great.

The nature of the waiting is interesting. Since I cannot put my attention directly on the "place" where thought arise (as they seem to arise somehow "behind" me), the attention has no particular place to go, and often autonomously drifts to non-thought sensations, like sounds or body feelings, until thoughts are noticed the next time.

Perfect.



Exploration
Now that you seems to be clear about thought. Let's push a little but deeper.


Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?



Now put the paper aside. Breath, relax and tell me:

Can you find a thinker?

Are you able to find the One who thinks?

Is the "I" findable in your thought or in your Direct Experience?

[OfTheField]

The answer to all the questions is: no, none of that is me.

Can you find a thinker?

I couldn't find a thinker, just a feeling that arose accompanying the reference to a thought that contains a reference to "I". This feeling is some subset of my consciousness. It arises when referenced or threatened somehow.

Are you able to find the One who thinks?

No. When this question hit my consciousness, I experienced a small moment of no thinking.

Is the "I" findable in your thought or in your Direct Experience?

I am not sure. The bodily/mental feeling that arises referencing of the "I" seems to be the experience-able "I". So there is a short direct experience of it as sensation.

[Windaway]

Ok, let's keep diving into WHAT IS.

Exploration:

What come up with those affirmation? :

There is no separates entity, anywhere to be find.

There is no individual who have have free will and choice

[OfTheField]

Who came up with those affirmations?[\quote]
I don't know. It appeared, but the feeling of an I appeared with it. I agree that there is nothing else but the feeling of "I", but somehow it feels like the source of the affirmations.