Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

But wait — even the believer is thought.

You are on to something here can you expand on this further please?

[overthought]

But wait — even the believer is thought.

You are on to something here can you expand on this further please?

Beliefs can't be thoughts that "someone" takes to be true, because there is no someone. Instead, beliefs are thoughts (about how things are / should be) which other thoughts (about who "I" am) get built around.

The first things we learn are many variations of thoughts reinforcing that "I am an individual fragile being that needs to survive this dangerous world by navigating (controlling) my way through it to get the good stuff and avoid the bad stuff." This is not seen in DE. That’s because it’s the lens through which we unknowingly see everything. Thoughts assesses everything to place it on the spectrum from “threat” to “ally.” I’ll state my strong intent to let this habit go.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
Is there a definite recognition that there is no separate self, one that has occurred either suddenly or gradually to see through this illusion since the beginning of our dialogue?
If there is, does any doubt exist?
Can you expand on this answer please?


Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image/images that is/are labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[overthought]

Hi Paul,

Is there a definite recognition that there is no separate self…
If there is, does any doubt exist?

There is a recognition that a separate self has never been seen or found in all my looking, and that instead there are clear and compelling signs that it doesn’t and couldn’t exist. So I think I can say yes to your first question, but the only hint of doubt seems to come from the highly analytical part of the mind which says I can’t be 100% sure of something’s non-existence.

Also, I’m sleep deprived as my daughter has a virus that has kept her home from school and up most of the night last night. I began the deeper body exercise and look forward to having time to do the whole thing and report back to you.
Thanks for your patience!
-Jason

[CarefulDog88]

No problem Jason
No rush take care of the family and when your ready come back to it
may your daughter regain her health :)

[overthought]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the well wishes for my daughter, who is feeling much better and back to regular activities.

I realize the slight doubt I shared with you about no self was because I was looking outside of DE. I don’t have to say I’m 100% sure of its non-existence. But I can say that a separate self is 100% not, and never has been, in direct experience. So to paraphrase Ilona’s hilarious example, I can tell you that a separate self is as real as Spider-Man. I can’t say with 100% certainty that he doesn’t exist, or that any sightings of him have only been actors. But I can say that a real Spider-Man has never been in direct experience.

I had a trippy time working with the body/mirror exercise. I want to do another round and then write to you again.

I hope all is well with you.

Take care,
Jason

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
Great your has recovered.
Ilona’s insightful analogy works as a great pointer.
Take your time with the mirror exercise, it is a beautiful pointer and has so many layers.
And Just remember to ask what is true?

[overthought]

Take your time with the mirror exercise, it is a beautiful pointer and has so many layers.

The first layer somehow makes clear that there are so many layers beyond!

(2) Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

There's no actual connection. There's a sensation labeled "shoulder" and there's also an image in the mirror that's labeled "shoulder." There's also a mental image that this investigation is emanating from a "looking" place behind the eyes, and that the "shoulder" sensation is located in a specific place slightly below and to the right of that. The only connections are thoughts: the learned perception that these share the same name because they refer to the same "part of my body," and the conceptual correlation that when "I move my shoulder" then the sensations match the visual movement seen in the mirror. (Thoughts tried arguing about this, claiming it was in DE. I pointed out that correlation does not imply causation. If someone expertly mimics me, the images of their movement would correlate with sensations in "my body," but that wouldn't be proof of a connection.)

(3) Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No, there are only thoughts -- a learned correlation. I tried this again with my computer screen and web cam instead of a mirror, making it even clearer that the connection is only conceptual. Just like the image in a warped mirror isn't proof that "my body" has changed shapes, and the image in a novelty filter on Zoom or FaceTime isn't proof that I've turned into a cartoon animal.

(4) Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?

It took some time to see that the same "correlation does not imply causation" must apply here. If I got a shot of novocaine and felt no sensations in my wiggling fingers, should I use that to determine whether this is "my hand" or not? Of course not. Sensation happens or doesn't, and images are seen or not, but these can and do appear independently.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

No, the images are just images. In direct experience, there are elements like images, sensations, and thoughts, that appear to show up simultaneously. Thought then bundles and merges these together into one perception of "body." This is further merged with the appearance of memories, preferences, and other thoughts, resulting in one perceived "me."

(6) Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

To find the other body parts not seen in the mirror requires imagination. There's a mental image that's so familiar as to not seem like imagination at all. It's been imagined so consistently as to seem real. (It's seen that this phenomenon underlies our entire conversation and investigation.)

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations. Imagination is required to call up the mental image of a body and correlate the sensations with specific parts of that picture.

(8) Start to walk slowly. Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations? Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

In DE, there are sensations and there are thoughts. "Body" and "walking" are only content of those thoughts, so "body walking" is not in DE.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’...?

Applying the same "correlation does not imply causation" standard, it's seen that there are sensations in DE, and there are images in DE. Anything about "body" "moving" or "room" are labels and interpretations, not in DE. I'm going to practice with this more today on a walk because it's clear that this is only the subtle beginning of this seeing and still feels tenuous, like it would be forgotten if not reinforced or deepened soon.

Thanks again!
Jason

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
You are conducting a very deep looking and doing a great job of it, please continue with this earnestness.:)

(6) Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

To find the other body parts not seen in the mirror requires imagination. There's a mental image that's so familiar as to not seem like imagination at all. It's been imagined so consistently as to seem real. (It's seen that this phenomenon underlies our entire conversation and investigation.)

Yes, and maybe our entire lives :)?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’...?

Applying the same "correlation does not imply causation" standard, it's seen that there are sensations in DE, and there are images in DE. Anything about "body" "moving" or "room" are labels and interpretations, not in DE. I'm going to practice with this more today on a walk because it's clear that this is only the subtle beginning of this seeing and still feels tenuous, like it would be forgotten if not reinforced or deepened soon.

As an extension to this, try sitting in a seat and close your eyes, take a few deep breaths in and exhale slowly and put your attention on the heart area for 30 secs. Then shift your attention to the sensations you are experiencing from sitting in the seat. Can you find a boundary or a line that separates the body from the seat.
Sit with this for as long as you can. Then open the eyes and do the same, see if a boundary or a separation line can be found in between the body and the seat.
What do you find please detail your experiencing? ( you can apply this all day long and just notice, elbows on desk, finger tips on keyboard,feet on ground)

[overthought]

Hi Paul,

…see if a boundary or a separation line can be found in between the body and the seat.

It’s becoming more apparent that imagination is required to connect sensations with images of body parts. So, there’s a sensation that’s labeled “heel.” There’s also an image labeled as a foot on a foot rest. The familiar default would be to assume these are aspects of the same event, that “I can feel my foot on the foot rest.” There would be an apparent boundary at the outermost edge of the “foot” image, as there would be no sensations ascribed to the image of the foot rest.

But looking more closely, imagination stops inserting the idea that sensation is caused by, or located in, the images.

So what’s going on? Shapes and colors are here. Sensation is here. Sound is here. Taste is here. Smell is here. Thought arises, but it’s different than the rest on this list. The perceptions of the five senses appear to be direct, showing up as just a color, just a sound, etc. Thoughts, however, are like mirages of these sense perceptions. These mirages are unconsciously combined into stories (presumably because of a survival instinct to make sense of the world). When these mirages and stories appear to arise internally (ex: imagining exploring a volcano) we use the five senses as the boundary to distinguish between imagination (internal — lava diving!) and reality (external — there’s no volcano here). But when the same unconscious story-making incorporates direct sense perceptions (ex: these sensations correspond to parts of my body and these images mean my body is near certain objects and moving through an experience that reminds me of a previous experience…), then we can no longer use the sense perceptions to distinguish mirage from reality. And so we...

...come to LU asking for guidance.

... Did I address your question about a butt on a seat? 😆

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

... Did I address your question about a butt on a seat? 😆

Hahaha yes you did, but were you experiencing the expansiveness of no imagination, no thought, just what is?
this practice of sitting with the sensations makes way for a stillness, an openness to just be, call it a walking or a living meditation, you use everything around you to sink into that openness/space what ever these words are that just fail to convey or describe the naturalness of being. The sound of a bird call, the honk of a horn the sensation of sitting or walking, the contraction in the stomach, just a relaxation into it.

So what’s going on? Shapes and colors are here. Sensation is here. Sound is here. Taste is here. Smell is here. Thought arises, but it’s different than the rest on this list. The perceptions of the five senses appear to be direct, showing up as just a color, just a sound, etc. Thoughts, however, are like mirages of these sense perceptions.

Is thought really different?
Do sensations arise and pass away the same as thought?
Is there a different origin for sensations then thought? or are they arising from the same Space?
Can you control sensations ? can you control thought?
Are there stories in sensations, varying degrees of intensity, varying degrees of pleasure and pain, are these stories?
Thoughts are experienced, they are made of stories, with varying degrees of pleasure and pain and intensity isn't this the same?

When these mirages and stories appear to arise internally (ex: imagining exploring a volcano) we use the five senses as the boundary to distinguish between imagination (internal — lava diving!) and reality (external — there’s no volcano here). But when the same unconscious story-making incorporates direct sense perceptions (ex: these sensations correspond to parts of my body and these images mean my body is near certain objects and moving through an experience that reminds me of a previous experience…), then we can no longer use the sense perceptions to distinguish mirage from reality.

It's estimated that the average person has 70,000 thoughts a day how many sensations do we have, which thought are we that is true?, which sensation are we that is true? Is it just one thought and one sensation and they both arise from the same Space and go to the same Space, so you can just say they are the same thing and if they come from the same Space and disappear into the same Space, then what is anything other than Space? Is there is no thing at all?

So the question is, what is before thought, before sensations, closer than your face, closer then your breath, before any memory. It's wrapped around you like a blanket, it's what you always are, it's what you always have been, it's what you are searching for but you are already it and always have been, its what you were when you looked in the mirror at 5 years old and 25 years old and 50 years old, other than physical body change and more memory, its what has never changed.

Jason, these questions are more contemplative than guiding so I will leave them with you and if you would like to answer or respond to them then we can continue the dialogue.

You have been ready for the final questions that LU has for a little while now, I just took you a touch further, as the impulse to do so was there.
Do you have any questions, for me?
Are you ready for the final questions?

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason
Are you still with me 😀

[overthought]

So sorry for the delay, Paul. Your last message offered so much to respond to, but I’ve become aware that it also evoked a lot of resistance. Something tells me you won’t be surprised by that. I sat with this resistance and what clarified is this: I am committed to the unfolding/unbinding that’s underway, but I’d also become comfortable with how it’s been unfolding. Your guidance and the exercises and investigations have been phenomenal, and now the thought of moving to some unknown next phase tried to cause a shutdown.
One of the stories that’s been playing out throughout this life experience has been what was only recently diagnosed as ADHD. As the story goes, any major endeavor “I” have pursued without “external” coordination/guidance has become so overwhelming as to shut down further progress.
You provided a fantastic list of new questions and pointers in your last message, and I’ve already begun exploring the still-hazy possibility of thought and sensation’s mutual origin. And I’ll continue going down that list.

Jason, these questions are more contemplative than guiding so I will leave them with you and if you would like to answer or respond to them then we can continue the dialogue.

I would very much like to continue the dialogue, but also very much want to respect your generously volunteered service here. And I trust you’d call me out if you sense I’m extending dialogue as a delay/resistance to other forward movement. I had wondered if you’d been taking me “a touch further” and am so grateful for it. When at some point this conversation comes to a close, I’ll ask if you have recommendations on other ways/venues to receive some kind of guidance, if only at the practical level of accountability to stay with investigation.
So, yes I certainly feel ready to handle answering LU’s closing questions whenever it’s time, but would also be glad to dialogue with you for any additional amount that’s appropriate.

Awkwardly, but even more gratefully,
Jason

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

I sat with this resistance and what clarified is this: I am committed to the unfolding/unbinding that’s underway, but I’d also become comfortable with how it’s been unfolding.

This is beautiful, and as this dialogue comes to an end that unfolding continues, you are THIS already, with your Direct Experience your inquiries will enable clarity. Earnestness will keep this inquiry authentic and you will not need anyone else to keep that going.

One of the stories that’s been playing out throughout this life experience has been what was only recently diagnosed as ADHD. As the story goes, any major endeavor “I” have pursued without “external” coordination/guidance has become so overwhelming as to shut down further progress.

This is just what is happening and that is OK to, the suffering that frequents us all is basically what is actually happening is different to what we want to happen. Using Direct Experience we can see this truth, see through the thought stories and be with what is unfolding without resistance, another paradox is that resistance is what is happening :)

I would very much like to continue the dialogue

Absolutely LU has many options for after care and there are also very experienced guides that offer group zoom meetings even one on one meetings, I will definitely make this available to you and help you through this, for now lets look at the questions, so we can identify any possible areas that may need more work, once other guides have confirmed than we will look at these opportunities.

Here are the questions, take your time, there is no right or wrong and come at the questions using Direct Experience. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
BTW One of the Guides at LU host a Zoom meeting that everyone is welcome to join, there is no expectation just a group of like minded people in a safe environment having dialogue. The meeting is made up of guides, people who are in LU process and people who are just turning up. I will put the link below and you are more than welcome to join. I do attend the Monday morning meeting regularly and sometimes the Saturday evening. join when you like and leave when you like, there is no expectations.

There is one each Saturday at 9pm (Sydney time – AEDT)
One each Wednesday at 3pm (AEDT)
There is also one each Monday 6 am Sydney time – AEDT
Please note that it’s always the same time on the same link
 Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
You can convert time zones https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/;
Click https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09 to Join Zoom Meeting

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035