Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

[overthought]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
An LU guide who sees reality without unknowingly imagining themselves to be a "me" character will be able to see the extent of my belief in such a character. With their clarity, they'll generously point me toward seeing it too so I can simply stop.

What are you looking for at LU?
Just the truth, unfiltered by imagination. Kevin Schanilec's fetter-breaking work recently appeared and he recommended LU, so I've been immersed for a couple of weeks in Gateless Gatecrashers, Ilona's recorded direct pointing sessions, and some of her other videos. The pointings are undeniable and I'm eager to work with a guide.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to show up and look where you point. I expect I'll need to be vigilant with this mind (as I've already needed to be in answering this questionnaire) which wants to posture and pose as already "getting this," trying to craft perfect responses that will convince or impress someone. I promise to be vigilant in honestly reporting only my direct experience, and I look forward to being called out otherwise.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
There's a long story about sensing some vague secret about the world, not knowing what to look behind to reveal it. Childhood chasing magic. Growing up to see if leaders, healers, or artists know what's going on. No answers, a decade with pot to numb the anxiety, then another decade learning to just be with the anxiety. Eckhart Tolle sparks a glimpse of the obvious truth, but it's short-lived. Mooji helps drop past and future, but then what? ... just "marinate"? Then, uh oh, Jed McKenna grabs the wheel for a few dark years (Ilona's review of him was so cathartic). Within the last few months, Angelo DiLullo makes awakening good again, introduces Kevin, the fetters, and here we are.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[CarefulDog88]

Hi, my name is Paul, I would be very happy to embark on this exploration with you, provided we both agree it is sensible. Please carefully consider the following points, which blend universal LU elements with specific guidance:
1. Throughout this process, your focus should be solely on your direct experience (DE). We will avoid delving into theories, beliefs, or alternative methods, including those from non-duality, we will take a break from YouTube. Relying on external beliefs is not the aim. I will pose questions, and your responses should stem directly from your personal experiences.
2. The key elements driving this process are your desire to discover the truth and your willingness to delve deeply into the questions. Wholehearted engagement in the experiments and exercises I present is crucial. Your commitment to reporting experiences here with complete honesty is essential. If you are prepared for this level of engagement, the process will naturally unfold as it should.
3. To ensure focus and productivity in this process, both of us commit to responding on this thread daily. In cases of exceptional circumstances preventing a response, we agree to communicate this in advance on the thread, either the day before or on the day. If this rhythm doesn't align with your lifestyle, style, or preferences, please inform me, and alternative arrangements can be made with another guide.
Please read the following documents from LU and make sure you are on board with their content:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Learn how to use the Quote Function here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.
Are you ready for this?
What shall I call you?
ALSO:
1. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the bottom left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

2. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the inquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers.

[overthought]

Hi Paul,

I'm thrilled to hear from you and so grateful that you've volunteered for this. I've read all the agreements and understandings you named and linked to, and I wholeheartedly agree to it all. I commit to full engagement, reporting only honest DE, and doing so at least once a day (more if you've got it in you), and letting you know if that schedule will be interrupted. YouTube time and other external guidance will be replaced with delving time. I'm in the Eastern U.S. (EDT, UTC-4) time zone, in case that helps us figure out each other's waking hours.

Learn how to use the Quote Function here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

You've been quoted.

Are you ready for this?

YES PLEASE. (Sorry to yell.)

What shall I call you?

Jason

Thank you so very much,
Jason

[CarefulDog88]

Great Jason,
I am in Australia UTC +10 so there will be a 14 hr lag, not a problem, that is what is happening.

Lets Start
1) "there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?

Just rant about it without censoring. Give particular attention to thoughts coming up that are emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational. Also don't miss writing any strong beliefs about this that come up. Just write without censoring or limiting.

2) What are your expectations for what will be different in life after first awakening, after seeing through the separate self? Describe all of them as thoroughly as possible.

1) Are you willing to proceed knowing it might be like that for you, and to let go of any expectations to experience relief and enjoyment from this in the near future? (you might well do, but you also might not). Are you willing to staying lovingly focused on what is true and real, no matter how it feels?

[overthought]

Hi Paul,

1) "there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?

My reaction to this is a quiet calm. There's a relief, like the totally unexpected solution to a life-long puzzle. Then some doubt thoughts arise: Sure, I can't find a self in here, but that's not the same as seeing with certainty that one doesn't exist. But that thought doesn't have much charge -- feels like a flimsy automatic defense. I respond to doubt by asking it to come back with a reason why something as fundamental as a self would be completely unnoticeable. Doubt has no reply. There's no entity called a self in here, only sensations and thoughts.

2) What are your expectations for what will be different in life after first awakening, after seeing through the separate self?

Thanks to Gateless Gatecrashers, Ilona's recorded video guiding sessions, and other testimonials, I've recently been convincingly disabused of expectations of a major epiphany fireworks show. I do expect to give less attention and interest to the content of thought and more attention and interest to direct experience.

1) Are you willing to proceed knowing it might be like that for you, and to let go of any expectations to experience relief and enjoyment from this in the near future? (you might well do, but you also might not). Are you willing to staying lovingly focused on what is true and real, no matter how it feels?

Yes, I'm in this for moving forward through the fetters. I don't know what to expect about most of it. I expect identification as a seeker to fall away. Given that increased attention on direct experience is one of my few expectations, I am more than willing to stay focused on what's true and real. If it doesn't feel pleasant or comfortable, that seems like all the more indication that it needs attention.

Thanks,
Jason

[CarefulDog88]

Yes, I'm in this for moving forward through the fetters.

Is there an expectation that this is a stepping stone to the "fetter work"?

[overthought]

Is there an expectation that this is a stepping stone to the "fetter work"?

I’ll keep a lookout for that expectation, but it’s not that I’m attached to “doing the fetter work” so much as that I’m committed to dropping any filters that I’ve unknowingly been viewing reality through. I’ve been pointed here to begin doing that and I intend to see it through, however that plays out.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
Perfect.
So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

So what is this Direct Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

We are depending totally on DE.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience – Direct Experiencing (DE).

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.


What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?



Can you be 100% sure?



When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)



What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

[overthought]

...exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience

Yes, please. Last week something in a blog post of Vince Schubert's really resonated, and since then it's been helpful to keep remembering that thought content is not more interesting than what's actually here in reality. It’s been eye-opening to notice how much more attention thought has been getting for so long.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
Can you be 100% sure?

I'm immediately unsure, and any attempt to answer will be based on memory –– and not memory of putting on my socks this morning, but even less directly, memory of the kinds of socks I have in general. So ... black?

When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

Nope. Brown. Count me in for DE.

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling

This was great to read.
I did the exercise she suggests of 10 min writing experience with “I” and then 10 min without. The ones without were clearly truer, as there was no evidence to support the claims of “I” being involved in the first batch.

What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

A glowing screen with letters. Fingers tapping on that screen. More letters appearing. A child laying on a bed. A floor with toys on it.

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Breathing. Raindrops. Car engines. Tires through puddles. Dishes clinking. Footsteps.
It’s tricky because of course these all actually are labels and require assumptions. So, just going for the bare minimum needed for language, hopefully not imagining anything further than names to convey the sights and sounds in this DE.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason

It’s been eye-opening to notice how much more attention thought has been getting for so long.

we live in thought believing it to be true.
Notice

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?
Can you be 100% sure?

I'm immediately unsure, and any attempt to answer will be based on memory –– and not memory of putting on my socks this morning, but even less directly, memory of the kinds of socks I have in general. So ... black?

When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

Nope. Brown. Count me in for DE.

Memory is thought how true is thought?

We will get to thought next.


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go. Please do it in two ways: (1) during normal activity when possible just label moments of experience internally this way (like if I do it now: sight, sound, sight, feeling, thought, sound, etc.). And one time during the day write me 5 minutes where you practice and write at the same time and use the format above. Here is an example of me doing that:

seeing screen, simply= sight
hearing woman talk on the street, simply= sound
hearing bird chirp, simply= sounds
seeing fingers moving, simply= sight
feeling itch on the scalp of the head, simply= sensation

Let me know what you notice from doing this exercise

[overthought]

Memory is thought how true is thought?

The content of thought is never directly experienced, so it's never true.

during normal activity when possible just label moments of experience internally

This brought even more awareness to how attention habitually stays in thought so much more than with direct experience.

5 minutes where you practice and write at the same time

Feeling phone in my hands, simply = sensation
Thinking what to write next, simply = thought
Itch on head = sensation
Noticing tension In chest, simply = sensation
Air coming in for a deep breath, simply = sensation
Thinking of going back to read what I've noted so far, simply = thought
Dishwasher swishing, simply = sound

Let me know what you notice from doing this exercise

Having this exercise be an assignment for the day sparked frequent remembering to break experiences down into DE categories like this -- but mostly while doing an activity alone. When among other people, it only arose a couple of times.
Today included an hour driving alone. Instead of the usual audio entertainment, there was an intention to just be with (or keep coming back to) the body's direct experience and labeling the DE categories as in this exercise. For several hours after that drive, there was a pervasive joy in the body and mind.

Thank you again,
Jason

[overthought]

Checking in for today — been bringing more attention to simple direct experience. Even the exercise of labeling categories of experience (sight, smell, sensation, etc) is seen to require a slight pulling away from direct experience toward thought, just to call up the list of categories and identify which is the appropriate label. But this brought awareness to some held beliefs that say thought is inherently problematic. Clearly not the case, but needs more attention because this lingers as shame, old identification with a weakness, something to improve or fix.
Also noticing outdated assumptions about body sensations being “this,” versus external sights or sounds being “that.” This also needs more attention, but the discrepancy with no-self reality is apparent. Not sure what “external” even means in reality.
Calling out some imposter syndrome I’m seeing. The thoughts saying that everything I write to you is conceptual BS. Accusations that mind is crafting a persona for you to see. Worry that adding this whole imposter syndrome rant will make me look less … good. But I’m damn well leaving it in.

Take care,
Jason

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
Really good effort calling out thought.
Question Everything and then ask is it True.
Is this thought true, and this thought is it true, and this thought is it true and this thought is it true do this all day every day and sooner or later the penny will drop or should I say the self.

Also noticing outdated assumptions about body sensations being “this,” versus external sights or sounds being “that.” This also needs more attention, but the discrepancy with no-self reality is apparent. Not sure what “external” even means in reality.

Is any of it true?


Now lets look at Thought.

What is labelling a thought "separate self"?
Isn't' it also a thought?

And what happens when you rename this feeling (of I) with just a feeling?

Am I feeling or there is just feeling happening?

Am I thinking or there is just thinking happening?

What is doing the thinking really?

Can a thought think?

Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?

[overthought]

Is any of it true?

No. A sensation felt in the body is simply a sensation. Nothing makes it more "mine" or more "real" than, for example, the sight of something that appears to be outside the body.

What is labelling a thought "separate self"?
Isn't' it also a thought?

Yes, it's definitely a thought. One that’s seen as being part of a habitual perspective. Going to investigate that last statement ... When attention is on sensation inside the body, what's there to make it seem as "my body"? Nothing direct. Only memory... thoughts of past identification. In direct experience, the actual noticing of body sensations is no different than the noticing of the sight of the closet door. Their different qualities and associations only arise as the content of thoughts, a.k.a. unverified. The noticing itself is the same, a neutral presence.

And what happens when you rename this feeling (of I) with just a feeling?

It removes an unverified claim of identity and becomes more aligned with truth.

Am I feeling or there is just feeling happening?

Just feeling is happening.

Am I thinking or there is just thinking happening?

Just thinking is happening.

What is doing the thinking really?

There's no evidence of a doer. There's the arising thought. There's awareness of it. But there's no sign of a thinker or even a noticer of thoughts.

Can a thought think?

No. Thought just arises. There is no thinker. If it appears that there's a thinker, this is only another thought.

Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?

Not a doing, which would require a doer. More like a spontaneous happening.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

What is labelling a thought "separate self"?
Isn't' it also a thought?

Yes, it's definitely a thought. One that’s seen as being part of a habitual perspective. Going to investigate that last statement ... When attention is on sensation inside the body, what's there to make it seem as "my body"? Nothing direct. Only memory... thoughts of past identification. In direct experience, the actual noticing of body sensations is no different than the noticing of the sight of the closet door. Their different qualities and associations only arise as the content of thoughts, a.k.a. unverified. The noticing itself is the same, a neutral presence.

Noticing of the closet door, noticing body sensations, where is the noticing happening?
Is there any distance between the closet door being noticed and the body sensation being noticed?

Try this exercise
Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit. Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Jason" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Jason".
Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel "Jason" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Jason” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.