Seeing through the illusion of self

[CosmicJoke]

Hey Gunnar, sorry I sometimes struggle with episodes of lethargy/laziness/depression whatever you wanna call it where I can't get myself to do anything. Think I'm back on track now and thank you for checking in!

Will reply to you later today again regarding the exercises. Sorry for giving you the impression that you're wasting your time.

[CosmicJoke]

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

The sensations seem to be localized around the actual body. The image in the mirror feels lifeless in comparison because sensations are not experienced there.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Same as above. The sensations seem to happen localized around the actual hand. The image in the mirror is just a lifeless reflection.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Thoughts suggest that the sensations are felt in the hand. If there was no hand then there would be no sensations. So there must be some correlation between the hand and the sensations. I guess that’s not the answer you were looking for :)
Not sure what I am missing.
I can see however that the sensations themselves don’t reveal anything about “hand”. Nothing in the sensation suggests that they have anything to do with an object called hand. The connection that these sensations are the hand is made by the mind connecting the image to the sensation and labeling it hand.
But these two must be connected somehow even if it’s not through an object called hand, or aren’t they? It sure feels like it.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colors and shapes?

There are only colors and shapes in the seen. Seeing itself doesn’t give any information about the content. Only the mind does that. Seeing is just one single experience without information about objects in it. But I seem to only see this conceptually. It feels like it takes effort to recognize it. Feel like there needs to be a clear understanding of something I haven’t realized yet.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Same as for (5). The experience of seeing has no information included in it whatsoever. But this observation still feels very conceptual. The mind is very convincing at filling in all the blanks :)

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

This one’s a bit clearer. Most of the time one doesn’t notice the body anyway. It’s just assumed to be there when looking at parts of it for example. During most of the day it’s not there.
Same as above, seeing and feeling doesn’t have any intrinsic information about a body in it. It’s only the mind that labels these sensory experiences as a body and as “mine”.

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

In direct experience what happens is just the visual field changing and sensations being experienced. It feels like I need to spend more time on this to see it clearer. Right now, attention gets immediately caught up in the mind which then dominates the experience. Feel like recognizing this is much easier when isolating one single sensation instead of including the whole experience.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

This one is difficult to see when including both senses. Just focusing on one sensation I can somewhat see that seeing and feeling appears only “here” (that’s the best way to put it). The mind then divides everything up and created locations.
Meditating on just the raw feeling of one sensation makes this somewhat apparent but takes some time and relaxed focus to get to that.


Some sort of insight I had the last days was that basically there is two ways of knowing or what feels like two ways of experiencing reality. One is like infinite clear immediate and direct knowing of everything that appears and then there's knowing through the mind which is much more limited.
It's obvious when looking at something through direct knowing and then knowing it by describing it with the mind. The mind (or thinking) is describing (even that's giving too much credit to thoughts) something that is unknowable. But somehow we learned to keep attention in thoughts and have started to experience the world from there. Then it feels like the descriptions are part of or actual reality when they're not. And since basically all thoughts revolve around "me" that's how it gets reinforced constantly. Thoughts/me seems to be a mechanism that feels like it's trying to constantly get control over something that is completely uncontrollable and unknowable.
Don't know if writing all of this is helpful in any way. It felt more profound when that insight hit me some days ago for sure :) Maybe you have an opinion or clarification about it.

[gmalen]

Michael,

Hey Gunnar, sorry I sometimes struggle with episodes of lethargy/laziness/depression whatever you wanna call it where I can't get myself to do anything. Think I'm back on track now and thank you for checking in!

Will reply to you later today again regarding the exercises. Sorry for giving you the impression that you're wasting your time.

No worries, all good.

Saw your reflections and will get back by the end of the weekend. In one of those lethargic episodes myself!

Gunnar

[gmalen]

MIchael,

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
Same as above. The sensations seem to happen localized around the actual hand. The image in the mirror is just a lifeless reflection.

There might be some inertia getting back into the headspace of this exercise but let's see what we can do. What information are you referring to in direct experience to come to the conclusion that there is an 'actual hand'? What if you move your hand behind your back (without a mirror) or with your eyes closed. When do you this, while paying attention to the sensations in the hand as you move it, is there any connection between the felt sensations and the idea of the actual hand in direct experience?

Thoughts suggest that the sensations are felt in the hand. If there was no hand then there would be no sensations. So there must be some correlation between the hand and the sensations. I guess that’s not the answer you were looking for :)
Not sure what I am missing.
I can see however that the sensations themselves don’t reveal anything about “hand”. Nothing in the sensation suggests that they have anything to do with an object called hand. The connection that these sensations are the hand is made by the mind connecting the image to the sensation and labeling it hand.
But these two must be connected somehow even if it’s not through an object called hand, or aren’t they? It sure feels like it.

I appreciate your honest looking, here's what arises in response. Perhaps you've played tennis and you can recall how as you watch a ball to see if it's in or not, as soon as the play ends, you can feel very confident about whether it was on the line or out. Now, as seconds and minutes pass, especially if the other person disagrees, your mind can begin imagining different happenings as to whether it was in or not. The certainty fades. As time sets in, the mind doesn't remember what it saw. This analogy can apply to all sports where there are close calls. Also, to memories from your last vacation or your childhood.

So, does the mental image that we have of those memories indeed guarantee accuracy or truth even if the mental image is clear and confident in itself? Look at your hand, can you be sure that's a hand? What if you had awful vision and you didn't know it, and you were actually looking at a large white or brown spider. Now notice all the quick thoughts/assumptions the mind makes to determine that it's not a spider, that it is indeed a hand. As you were touching on this in your writing, another way at this is to inquire: what is a hand? And see all that the mind references to tell you it indeed is. Sit with this for 5 full minutes and share what comes up.

Just like with the memories of the sports play and imagining the ball in/or out, that image alone isn't very valuable. It needs a thought to follow it, giving context and meaning to the image such as 'The ball was in' or 'the ball was out' which comes with assumptions/beliefs/views like: this side of the white line is in, and on the other side it is out. The more we can see these assumptions/beliefs/views in real time and at their root, we see that they aren't actually substantial or based in reality. They are overlays.

-------

Some sort of insight I had the last days was that basically there is two ways of knowing or what feels like two ways of experiencing reality. One is like infinite clear immediate and direct knowing of everything that appears and then there's knowing through the mind which is much more limited.
It's obvious when looking at something through direct knowing and then knowing it by describing it with the mind. The mind (or thinking) is describing (even that's giving too much credit to thoughts) something that is unknowable. But somehow we learned to keep attention in thoughts and have started to experience the world from there. Then it feels like the descriptions are part of or actual reality when they're not. And since basically all thoughts revolve around "me" that's how it gets reinforced constantly. Thoughts/me seems to be a mechanism that feels like it's trying to constantly get control over something that is completely uncontrollable and unknowable.
Don't know if writing all of this is helpful in any way. It felt more profound when that insight hit me some days ago for sure :) Maybe you have an opinion or clarification about it.

It's a nice insight. The distinction between these two ways of knowing is important. It's what all this is about. Keep parsing out what is clear, immediate, direct knowing VS. limited, conceptual, thought-based knowing.

What is immediate and alive is hearing, tasting, smelling, seeing, feeling, and the experience of thinking (but not its content). Michael is a thought, he is not real. 'You' do not exist. 'You' is only a thought. Therefore, 'you' do not control anything, there is no agency or free will, because 'you' is not a real thing. There is no one separate from life. Just life itself. What's your gut reaction to these words at this point?

Blessings,
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

MIchael,
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
Same as above. The sensations seem to happen localized around the actual hand. The image in the mirror is just a lifeless reflection.
There might be some inertia getting back into the headspace of this exercise but let's see what we can do. What information are you referring to in direct experience to come to the conclusion that there is an 'actual hand'? What if you move your hand behind your back (without a mirror) or with your eyes closed. When do you this, while paying attention to the sensations in the hand as you move it, is there any connection between the felt sensations and the idea of the actual hand in direct experience?
Thoughts suggest that the sensations are felt in the hand. If there was no hand then there would be no sensations. So there must be some correlation between the hand and the sensations. I guess that’s not the answer you were looking for :)
Not sure what I am missing.
I can see however that the sensations themselves don’t reveal anything about “hand”. Nothing in the sensation suggests that they have anything to do with an object called hand. The connection that these sensations are the hand is made by the mind connecting the image to the sensation and labeling it hand.
But these two must be connected somehow even if it’s not through an object called hand, or aren’t they? It sure feels like it.
I appreciate your honest looking, here's what arises in response. Perhaps you've played tennis and you can recall how as you watch a ball to see if it's in or not, as soon as the play ends, you can feel very confident about whether it was on the line or out. Now, as seconds and minutes pass, especially if the other person disagrees, your mind can begin imagining different happenings as to whether it was in or not. The certainty fades. As time sets in, the mind doesn't remember what it saw. This analogy can apply to all sports where there are close calls. Also, to memories from your last vacation or your childhood.

So, does the mental image that we have of those memories indeed guarantee accuracy or truth even if the mental image is clear and confident in itself? Look at your hand, can you be sure that's a hand? What if you had awful vision and you didn't know it, and you were actually looking at a large white or brown spider. Now notice all the quick thoughts/assumptions the mind makes to determine that it's not a spider, that it is indeed a hand. As you were touching on this in your writing, another way at this is to inquire: what is a hand? And see all that the mind references to tell you it indeed is. Sit with this for 5 full minutes and share what comes up.

Just like with the memories of the sports play and imagining the ball in/or out, that image alone isn't very valuable. It needs a thought to follow it, giving context and meaning to the image such as 'The ball was in' or 'the ball was out' which comes with assumptions/beliefs/views like: this side of the white line is in, and on the other side it is out. The more we can see these assumptions/beliefs/views in real time and at their root, we see that they aren't actually substantial or based in reality. They are overlays.

Here's what came up about "what is a hand?"

It is what I use to interact with the environment
It’s to grab things
It’s made out of bones and flesh
It can feel
I can move and control it
It has nails and five fingers
It has joints
It’s connected to my arm
There are two of them on a human
It’s made out of cells
It changes appearance with age
I use it to manipulate the environment
It can be open or closed

Funny how I always have to revoke and delete my initial responses after some closer investigation.

I was reminded of the fake rubber hand experiment. Thoughts map sensations to a fake hand therefore making it part of "I" because some sensations and images match a learned and reinforced pattern (same with phantom limbs for example). So when there are certain sensations and certain images thoughts somehow make them into a mind object and I track that object (still in the mind) as long as these patterns match with what was learned. That object seems to be actually physically existing but is nothing more than a thought that's constantly repeated in some way.

So when I move the hand from behind the head to in front of it it's just that certain visual patterns and sensations match with what was learned. It could just as well be an optical illusion or rubber hand.

So thoughts claim everything that correlates with certain patterns to belong to "I" and other patterns to not belong to "I". The laptop (or rather this visual pattern) is not me because of [insert thoughts here] but the hands writing on it are me because [insert more thoughts here]. For this to happen attention must be almost constantly on thoughts. Which it must be way more than what it feels like. Otherwise the illusion wouldn't be so convincing.

But all of this seems still to be again mostly just understood conceptually. There is no real seeing it.

Michael is a thought, he is not real. 'You' do not exist. 'You' is only a thought. Therefore, 'you' do not control anything, there is no agency or free will, because 'you' is not a real thing. There is no one separate from life. Just life itself. What's your gut reaction to these words at this point?

Michael feels like a big burden so the thought that he doesn't exist feels freeing. But this seems to be just more seeking and imagination of Michael. Michael doesn't seem threatened in any way by his nonexistance. But I think he would be if he really understood what that means.

[gmalen]

Michael,

Here's what came up about "what is a hand?"

It is what I use to interact with the environment
It’s to grab things
It’s made out of bones and flesh
It can feel
I can move and control it
It has nails and five fingers
It has joints
It’s connected to my arm
There are two of them on a human
It’s made out of cells
It changes appearance with age
I use it to manipulate the environment
It can be open or closed

Funny how I always have to revoke and delete my initial responses after some closer investigation.

Yes, that 'revoke and delete' is clear seeing! Thoughts quickly jump up and make their claim, clear seeing / direct experience comes in and says, 'wait a second!'.

I was reminded of the fake rubber hand experiment. Thoughts map sensations to a fake hand therefore making it part of "I" because some sensations and images match a learned and reinforced pattern (same with phantom limbs for example). So when there are certain sensations and certain images thoughts somehow make them into a mind object and I track that object (still in the mind) as long as these patterns match with what was learned. That object seems to be actually physically existing but is nothing more than a thought that's constantly repeated in some way.

!!

So thoughts claim everything that correlates with certain patterns to belong to "I" and other patterns to not belong to "I". The laptop (or rather this visual pattern) is not me because of [insert thoughts here] but the hands writing on it are me because [insert more thoughts here]. For this to happen attention must be almost constantly on thoughts. Which it must be way more than what it feels like. Otherwise the illusion wouldn't be so convincing.

Yes, I think you're on to something. i think the thoughts aren't always verbal/audible/words, too. But they are baked into the processing of the sense stimuli.

But all of this seems still to be again mostly just understood conceptually. There is no real seeing it.

You might be surprised to hear that 'lapsing' into a separate 'I' doesn't go away after seeing through the illusion of it. It becomes less sticky, easier to drop out of, but the same thoughts and emotions that were the building blocks for a self still arise and can be 'lapsed' into; it's just they can no longer culminate in the belief that a separate self entity actually exists. **So no fireworks here, it's more like a plane landing.** So let the lapsing continue on in all its glory! 'You' are not the one lapsing or the one being mindful of it. Just keep seeing the illusion for what it is. No pressure. As time goes on, more and more self is stripped away you could say, but what we are doing here now is just the first step in seeing that: There is no entity called "I" or "me" that can found in direct experience. 

What do you find when you look for 'you', for 'michael' in Direct experience? Is there a 'me' or an 'I' in there? Don't trust your thoughts about it, look in your direct experience and see what you find. Report from that seeing. Thoughts will always come in and analyze and try to make sense of things, that's what thoughts do. Cool. Let thoughts be thoughts. Now, what does direct experience show you? Both thoughts and DE can coexist without any problem if we know that a thought is just a thought.

Michael is a thought, he is not real. 'You' do not exist. 'You' is only a thought. Therefore, 'you' do not control anything, there is no agency or free will, because 'you' is not a real thing. There is no one separate from life. Just life itself. What's your gut reaction to these words at this point?
Michael feels like a big burden so the thought that he doesn't exist feels freeing. But this seems to be just more seeking and imagination of Michael. Michael doesn't seem threatened in any way by his nonexistance. But I think he would be if he really understood what that means.

Where is that big burden of Michael felt? What is it made up of? How much does it weigh? Who does it belong to? Look at these questions for 5 minutes or so in stillness.

Blessings,
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Sorry for the late reply again. I had another episode of lethargy.

You might be surprised to hear that 'lapsing' into a separate 'I' doesn't go away after seeing through the illusion of it. It becomes less sticky, easier to drop out of, but the same thoughts and emotions that were the building blocks for a self still arise and can be 'lapsed' into; it's just they can no longer culminate in the belief that a separate self entity actually exists. **So no fireworks here, it's more like a plane landing.** So let the lapsing continue on in all its glory! 'You' are not the one lapsing or the one being mindful of it. Just keep seeing the illusion for what it is. No pressure. As time goes on, more and more self is stripped away you could say, but what we are doing here now is just the first step in seeing that: There is no entity called "I" or "me" that can found in direct experience.

Yes this lapsing back into the I is an automatic habituated process. Attention gets caught up in the thought stream. Then suddenly it snaps out of it. The one snapping out then feels like it’s “me” realizing it. Then it’s seen as just more thoughts and then the mind goes kinda blank. And the cycle starts over again. Thoughts come up with all kinds of solutions and theories for it and attention is focused there again. Feels like a never ending cycle. The fact that I have an attention span of a goldfish seems to be an issue with noticing this quicker too.

What do you find when you look for 'you', for 'michael' in Direct experience? Is there a 'me' or an 'I' in there? Don't trust your thoughts about it, look in your direct experience and see what you find. Report from that seeing. Thoughts will always come in and analyze and try to make sense of things, that's what thoughts do. Cool. Let thoughts be thoughts. Now, what does direct experience show you? Both thoughts and DE can coexist without any problem if we know that a thought is just a thought.

Yes but some thoughts feel very sticky. Especially the emotional ones. Positive or negative. I’m trying to just see it is sensations and thoughts but attention quickly gets caught up in a story again. I don’t know how to let thoughts just be without getting caught up in them at some point.

Where is that big burden of Michael felt? What is it made up of? How much does it weigh? Who does it belong to? Look at these questions for 5 minutes or so in stillness.

Michael is felt as a heavy feeling in the gut and the feeling of thinking about Michael. The thought that Michael is having these feelings and thoughts then arises tying it all together and making it feel like being bound by it.

When trying to look at it directly the heavy feeling is just that. No need to create an imagined character to have them and attach it to them. There’s resistance to them but that seems to be another abstract thought that seems to say something like “no!”.

Michael himself is made out of nothing, has no weight, belongs to no one. Even saying he can be found in thoughts is assuming there is something there to be found in the first place. All more stories revolving around him.
But there is always a need to identify with something. The thought that there must be something that all experience belongs to. But that is another thought. That’s where the mind goes blank. For a second it feels like just life happening. And then the attention gets caught up in thought again.

There’s also just a lot of doubt always. Like what doubt is saying has actually any truth to it. Really hard to not get caught up with it and not just seeing it as more “static on the radio”.

Thoughts that say something like “you need to practice more or “everyone has practiced much more than you before they realized it” are especially convincing.

[gmalen]

Michael,

Yes this lapsing back into the I is an automatic habituated process.

Is there an 'I' or some entity that's 'lapsing back' into identity? Otherwise, what is happening in direct experience when you speak of this 'lapsing back into the I'.

Yes but some thoughts feel very sticky. Especially the emotional ones. Positive or negative. I’m trying to just see it is sensations and thoughts but attention quickly gets caught up in a story again. I don’t know how to let thoughts just be without getting caught up in them at some point.

Take the most poignant, sticky thought you've been having today, or perhaps in total regarding this waking up from identity shenanigans, such a:s 'This is impossible! If there's no me in the first place, how can I get out of this mess" or "I have way too much doubt" or "I hate not knowing if I'm on the right trajectory/course or not." Whatever it is for you. Try to make it clear and concise, and you can have different ones, but sit with each one for its period at least a few minutes.

With each phrase, think it as often as you need to to stay with it. Maybe once every 5-30 seconds. And explore its ins and outs. What assumptions is it making? What beliefs are baked into it? Who/what is it referring to?

Share how this goes for you.

Michael is felt as a heavy feeling in the gut and the feeling of thinking about Michael. The thought that Michael is having these feelings and thoughts then arises tying it all together and making it feel like being bound by it.

If Michael is the heavy feeling in the gut, who/what is aware of that? Does it feel like 'you' are higher up looking down so to speak on that heavy feeling in the gut? If so, what are you taking yourself to be up in the head region? Stay close to that and examine it.

------

Michael himself is made out of nothing, has no weight, belongs to no one. Even saying he can be found in thoughts is assuming there is something there to be found in the first place. All more stories revolving around him.
But there is always a need to identify with something. The thought that there must be something that all experience belongs to. But that is another thought. That’s where the mind goes blank. For a second it feels like just life happening. And then the attention gets caught up in thought again.

There’s also just a lot of doubt always. Like what doubt is saying has actually any truth to it. Really hard to not get caught up with it and not just seeing it as more “static on the radio”.

Thoughts that say something like “you need to practice more or “everyone has practiced much more than you before they realized it” are especially convincing.

I appreciate your writing. And acknowledge the tumultuous potential for identification with thought to dig and naw at us, even upon seeing its foundation is illusory.

Blessings,
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Hi Gunnar, FYI im traveling over the weekend. Will reply when I'm back on Tuesday.

[gmalen]

All good! Thanks for heads up.
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Yes this lapsing back into the I is an automatic habituated process.

Is there an 'I' or some entity that's 'lapsing back' into identity? Otherwise, what is happening in direct experience when you speak of this 'lapsing back into the I'.

Just attention getting caught up in thoughts so to speak because that’s what the body-mind has been conditioned to do during its lifetime.
The word attention is kind of misleading though. The word suggests that there is someone that puts attention on something. But thoughts and consciousness/attention of them are never separate. They must be the same therefore. Thoughts are trying to visualize how this would look like, trying really hard to understand this. A futile endeavor :). It would be funny if it wasn’t so annoying at the same time.

Yes but some thoughts feel very sticky. Especially the emotional ones. Positive or negative. I’m trying to just see it is sensations and thoughts but attention quickly gets caught up in a story again. I don’t know how to let thoughts just be without getting caught up in them at some point.

Take the most poignant, sticky thought you've been having today, or perhaps in total regarding this waking up from identity shenanigans, such a:s 'This is impossible! If there's no me in the first place, how can I get out of this mess" or "I have way too much doubt" or "I hate not knowing if I'm on the right trajectory/course or not." Whatever it is for you. Try to make it clear and concise, and you can have different ones, but sit with each one for its period at least a few minutes.

With each phrase, think it as often as you need to to stay with it. Maybe once every 5-30 seconds. And explore its ins and outs. What assumptions is it making? What beliefs are baked into it? Who/what is it referring to?

When breaking down some sticky thoughts I can see that there are many other beliefs implied which are taken for reality without being aware of it form that one sentence. All just imagined scenarios and concepts. Most of them based on a separate I. None of what the different beliefs are saying can be verified in direct experience.

Every sentence I’m writing exposes and reinforces this belief in a doer. So the doer is never able to do or understand anything because it’s just a thought. Understanding seems to be inseparable from someone who understands.

So realizing this is impossible. Realization being just another misleading word. So what the hell is this about then?

Everything just more thoughts that “I” supposedly came up with.

Really don’t know what to say or what to do anymore.

Michael is felt as a heavy feeling in the gut and the feeling of thinking about Michael. The thought that Michael is having these feelings and thoughts then arises tying it all together and making it feel like being bound by it.

If Michael is the heavy feeling in the gut, who/what is aware of that? Does it feel like 'you' are higher up looking down so to speak on that heavy feeling in the gut? If so, what are you taking yourself to be up in the head region? Stay close to that and examine it

.

I’ve been looking at this many times. The feeling of being located in the head as the experiencer. It’s always a thought that’s saying “I am inside the head”.
Seems like the issue is more with the thought itself, not the fact that no entity can be found inside the head. The thought itself seems to have some kind of authority or rather the thoughts creates a listener.

The listener seems to be that which is receiving the thought which is separate from the thought. This separation creates the observer of the thought which is identified with as the “real” me because something real is here. The observer is then trying to be found by another observer ad infinitum.

[gmalen]

Michael,

So realizing this is impossible. Realization being just another misleading word. So what the hell is this about then?

What does the hearing, seeing, feeling have to say about this? When you don't refer to a thought, what the hell is this about?

Everything just more thoughts that “I” supposedly came up with.

Really don’t know what to say or what to do anymore.

Okay, and perhaps the mind resists that to some degree. What would it look like to fully accept this not knowing what to say or do anymore? See if you can feel into that now. Take a few minutes - what happens when you don't know what to say or do right now? Even in relationship to resistance and the desire to know what to do/say/understand?

I’ve been looking at this many times. The feeling of being located in the head as the experiencer. It’s always a thought that’s saying “I am inside the head”.
Seems like the issue is more with the thought itself, not the fact that no entity can be found inside the head. The thought itself seems to have some kind of authority or rather the thoughts creates a listener.

The listener seems to be that which is receiving the thought which is separate from the thought. This separation creates the observer of the thought which is identified with as the “real” me because something real is here. The observer is then trying to be found by another observer ad infinitum.

Yes, it's good that you've been looking at this many times. Now you know how and where to look. You shall continue to look at this construction of a self, observer, the authoritative thoughts, boundaries, and separation until what's real/true is undeniably bright. Trust really looking in your direct experience just as you describe with curiosity and nuance. Pick it apart, piece by piece. Time and persistence are your friends.

-------

Now, as I may have mentioned a few times, this page is about seeing through the illusion of the 'i' and 'me' that occur in thought. Seeing that there is no entity there, nothing locatable or fixed. Only a flux of dynamic sensory data + thoughts.

From what I have read, I think this has been seen. Some days you will see clearly, and other days, the selfing may be in full force. That's a natural part of this process. I recommend you read this thread again, from the top.

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate, controlling self?

Is there something else which is not clear regarding the belief in a separate self?

Something else you would like to look at?

Here at LU, we offer 'final questions' when someone appears to have crashed the gate. I share your answers with other guides to get their feedback or confirmation in case we've missed something. Do you feel ready for the final questions?


Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Hi Gunnar,

sorry for late reply again. I was almost resentful towards you suggesting I might have seen through the illusion. It feels like the seeing is no clearer than it was when I first stumbled upon nonduality. Feels even less clear. Back then I could at least dilute myself into imagining some change in perception or whatever I thought nonduality is about. Now it’s just frustration.

The suffering seems to have increased in some aspects as this whole pondering and looking won’t leave me alone for too long before it starts to intervene itself into all kinds of situations. Hope seems lost too. And then of course I read many times that when seekers feel the most frustrated and hopeless, that’s when the realization happens. So in some way there is hope again but simultaneously I know (haha) that I’m never going to get it. That is what is believed here the strongest. Buy whom I don’t know. It’s a feeling maybe. Just a feeling of resignation and sometimes the wish to have never opened Pandora’s box and just be in peace.

Stumbled upon the headless way again. I assume you know it. Just pointing my finger at the looker it seems so clear that there is no person here. Just this being. Really liked this poem here https://www.headless.org/articles/my-special-friend.htm
Seemed so clear while reading it that Michael wants to be let into here so deeply but nothing can be brought into here or touch here. But that Michael that wants to be let into here still seems like a real entity just being looked at from nowhere. As usual I think all this is just bringing more confusion. Just wanted to share as there’s no one else I can share this with.

After reading this also a sense of shame and disgust comes up. I can see that it’s all just some random story completely made up without a basis. Just self-pity basically. This seriousness seems completely unnecessary but somehow, I still let the story take me away sometimes. There’s just a lot of frustration. Not sure why I’m ranting like this, guess that’s the hope speaking again.

Anyway, back to your questions:

So realizing this is impossible. Realization being just another misleading word. So what the hell is this about then?

What does the hearing, seeing, feeling have to say about this? When you don't refer to a thought, what the hell is this about?

Without thoughts there is no meaning to this. It’s neither about something nor is it not about something. Just life happening. Or rather experience happening. I would like to say that this is including suffering but that would be including thoughts.

Everything just more thoughts that “I” supposedly came up with.

Really don’t know what to say or what to do anymore.

Okay, and perhaps the mind resists that to some degree. What would it look like to fully accept this not knowing what to say or do anymore? See if you can feel into that now. Take a few minutes - what happens when you don't know what to say or do right now? Even in relationship to resistance and the desire to know what to do/say/understand?

A strong feeling of “NO” comes up. It shows up as tension in the body and anxiety. Like holding your breath or bracing yourself for the next moment. The not knowing doesn’t want to be allowed. It would expose a part of me that doesn’t want to be shown. It would mean that “I” could be humiliated or worse in some way by giving up control.

I’ve been looking at this many times. The feeling of being located in the head as the experiencer. It’s always a thought that’s saying “I am inside the head”.
Seems like the issue is more with the thought itself, not the fact that no entity can be found inside the head. The thought itself seems to have some kind of authority or rather the thoughts creates a listener.

The listener seems to be that which is receiving the thought which is separate from the thought. This separation creates the observer of the thought which is identified with as the “real” me because something real is here. The observer is then trying to be found by another observer ad infinitum.

Yes, it's good that you've been looking at this many times. Now you know how and where to look. You shall continue to look at this construction of a self, observer, the authoritative thoughts, boundaries, and separation until what's real/true is undeniably bright. Trust really looking in your direct experience just as you describe with curiosity and nuance. Pick it apart, piece by piece. Time and persistence are your friends.

I will keep looking into this. There’s no choice about it anyway.

Now, as I may have mentioned a few times, this page is about seeing through the illusion of the 'i' and 'me' that occur in thought. Seeing that there is no entity there, nothing locatable or fixed. Only a flux of dynamic sensory data + thoughts.

From what I have read, I think this has been seen. Some days you will see clearly, and other days, the selfing may be in full force. That's a natural part of this process. I recommend you read this thread again, from the top.

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate, controlling self?

No I can’t say that. When I look for the separate self I can never find an objective thing to point to but the feeling of being separate is still here.

Is there something else which is not clear regarding the belief in a separate self?

At this point it feels like I just convinced myself that there is no self. Or rather constant thoughts appear that suggest that there is no self. But the thinker of these thoughts still seems to be present somewhere. Sometimes as being inside the body even though after looking it can’t be found. Sometimes as an authoritative voice insisting that it is the thinker. After looking the speaker can’t be found. But another subtle thought quickly comes in it seems to take ownership. Very slippery like a shapeshifter.

Something else you would like to look at?

I don’t know at this point. There is this strong belief that discipline and some more structured approach is needed. But then also this thought comes up that if there is no doer here than whatever happens is exactly “right” as there’s no one to choose anyway. Then this image of me giving up and going down a road of nihilistic indulgence or worse comes up that will ultimately lead down a road of misery. But if that should happen then it couldn’t be any other way so it feels almost like this reliefs me of the burden to not go down this path, making it even easier to indulge. It’s very paradoxical.
So basically I have this image of me in 10 years just being completely unhappy, addicted and alone. But if that should happen then that must be exactly they way it should be.
All of it just thoughts creating fear and suffering. Circling back to the feeling of “NO” about the unknown. So in a way enlightenment seems to be that thing that will ward off this future scenario or make it bearable because there would be no suffering. More thoughts and expectations. So what to do if there's no doer?

[gmalen]

Michael,

sorry for late reply again. I was almost resentful towards you suggesting I might have seen through the illusion. It feels like the seeing is no clearer than it was when I first stumbled upon nonduality. Feels even less clear. Back then I could at least dilute myself into imagining some change in perception or whatever I thought nonduality is about. Now it’s just frustration.

Okay, appreciate the honesty. Ya, there usually is a clear shift that comes about, maybe a few minutes/hours/days where its seen without a doubt that there is no self entity. So let's keep exploring together.

https://www.headless.org/articles/my-special-friend.htm

Wow, this poem hit home..

After reading this also a sense of shame and disgust comes up. I can see that it’s all just some random story completely made up without a basis. Just self-pity basically. This seriousness seems completely unnecessary but somehow, I still let the story take me away sometimes. There’s just a lot of frustration. Not sure why I’m ranting like this, guess that’s the hope speaking again.

You're feeling heaps of frustration and heavy emotions as a result of this complex mind f*ck that is the self structure. I love that you so openly acknowledge it all, feel the pain, fight it, and throw up your hands in resignation. You're a fighter and you want freedom. Hell yeah, that's what this is all about.

Now, you're seeing that that doesn't necessarily work, AND you are learning very important lessons about the nature of all this through that failure. We all go through this and it's very good, important work. It doesn't last forever.

What happens if we're kind and open to the frustration / resistance? What if the resistance is just a process doing its job, a process that supposed to keep you safe in life. Give resistance/frustration a seat at the table. In the bible, it writes: 'You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.'

The mind has taken this as far as it can. Thank you mind. This frustration isn't a sign that you're missing something or not doing this properly. Exactly the opposite. You've cut off the mind roads, you've come to the end of what you can do with your mind. To the end of trying to save yourself with thoughts and concepts. The end of faking it, lying to yourself about what's real and unreal.

Things are coming into alignment. In a way this is a failure and it will be upsetting. A failure of the conceptual mind to give you peace, to show you your true nature. A thought just won't get you there. You're seeing the futility of the incessant need to depend on thought to solve all problems. But you don't have to give up on the inquiry. Let it take you into the unknown and swim in those waters.

So this culminates in frustration, it's lawful. This is where the rubber meets the road. It's okay. It's right. Everyone before you came to this very same place. You're not alone. It's safe to resign to this frustration and resistance and suffering. It's okay. That's why you and I are here ~ to learn to resign to the unknown. And you're doing great!

-------

Okay, and perhaps the mind resists that to some degree. What would it look like to fully accept this not knowing what to say or do anymore? See if you can feel into that now. Take a few minutes - what happens when you don't know what to say or do right now? Even in relationship to resistance and the desire to know what to do/say/understand?
A strong feeling of “NO” comes up. It shows up as tension in the body and anxiety. Like holding your breath or bracing yourself for the next moment. The not knowing doesn’t want to be allowed. It would expose a part of me that doesn’t want to be shown. It would mean that “I” could be humiliated or worse in some way by giving up control.

All of it just thoughts creating fear and suffering. Circling back to the feeling of “NO” about the unknown. So in a way enlightenment seems to be that thing that will ward off this future scenario or make it bearable because there would be no suffering. More thoughts and expectations. So what to do if there's no doer?

As far as this 'NO' to the unknown and not knowing what to do, this is exactly where you need to go. And noticing all the fear and suffering and thoughts that drive you away from that unknown. What is the unknown? What is control?

I think it might be helpful to meet by video sometime soon. I'm free Monday and Tuesday of next week, or the following weekend. Lmk if you're interested.

Blessings,
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Appreciate your offer for a meeting. I'm available on Monday or Tuesday the whole day. You can suggest a time that's suitable for you. Please consider the timezone I'm at is GMT+7. Thank you!