Seeing through the illusion of self

[CosmicJoke]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that our sensory experiences incl. thought somehow create a "standing wave" of a solid permanent entity that we call me. In fact there is only the experience itself and the assumed entity does not actually exist.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've been interested in nonduality for about a year now but have never really made a serious effort to actually look into direct experience. Mostly just watching Youtube Videos, reading books and doing a bit of meditation. I have some free time now and would like to have a structured approach to directly investigating direct experience as I feel this is the key to seeing through the illusion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that it will help me keep up momentum into this investigation and also get feedback for my experiences or show me the many pitfalls there are. I feel that just writing out my experiences in itself is helpful so I can come back to it if necessary.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done some inquiry into direct experience and thought, some limited meditation and am seeking for about a year now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[gmalen]

Greetings,

I've been interested in nonduality for about a year now but have never really made a serious effort to actually look into direct experience. Mostly just watching Youtube Videos, reading books and doing a bit of meditation. I have some free time now and would like to have a structured approach to directly investigating direct experience as I feel this is the key to seeing through the illusion.

So glad you're ready to dive in. You're exactly where you need to be. Perfectly ripe. Excited for you.

My name is Gunnar - I’d be happy to guide you.

Disclaimers & FAQ:

- Please read LU’s disclaimer here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- Please read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in LU’s FAQ here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- You may like to write your response first in Docs or Word and then copy it over to the site's text editor. It is common for some to lose paragraphs of writing due to random site time-outs. I've never had this issue. I just make sure I have stable wi-fi.

Agreements together:

- The momentum of inquiry is important. **Post at least once a day or every second day.** If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. I will do the same.
- Please do not hold anything back: what you tell me is what I use to point you. 100% honesty is very important. **If you have difficulty expressing anger, fear, guilt or shame, just your best and we can work from there.**
- When answering questions, don’t answer from memory, **look into your immediate, direct experience: smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts (not the content of thoughts).** Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
- Throughout this exploration, I would like you to **answer questions that I have written using the quote function:** [https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ](https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ). Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response!
- **Please put aside all other teachings** (videos, books, teachers, etc) during this period together. Direct all your focus into the inquiries we’re exploring. If you have a daily meditation practice, I encourage you to continue it.

Do these agreements work for you?
By what name shall I call you?

If this feels like a good fit for you, I’d like to start by exploring your expectations around awakening or passing through the gate:

How will life change?

How will you change?

What will be different?

What is missing right now?


Cheers,
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Hi Gunnar,

thank you for taking your time to assist me. It’s much appreciated.

Do these agreements work for you?

Yes agreed.

By what name shall I call you?

My name is Michael.

How will life change?

My expectation is that life will flow more effortlessly. That it will become more beautiful in some way or rather that I will be able to see the beauty in it more. I have fantasies about how life will change after awakening, like maybe I will find a meaningful career, maybe I’ll be able to teach this awakening thing to others and help them this way but on the other hand I also have a feeling that all these fantasies will lose the meaning that they have now as maybe the grasping for a better future will stop.

How will you change?

I expect that I will be able to be more in the moment without constantly having my attention on thoughts, worries and ruminations. My expectation is also that I will get along with people around me better since I will not be in my head all the time so I can express myself more freely. I will not have all the anxiety that I have right now anymore. I expect some sort of relaxation and release of the body and mind and freeing up of energy that is currently used to uphold the image of “me”.

What will be different?

Life will be easier and more beautiful. Life will realistically mostly continue as before I think but there will be a different appreciation for it.

What is missing right now?

Peace is missing right now. Peace from struggling with life/me and with figuring things out constantly. It’s not that some thing is missing to make life complete. It’s that not having the thought that something is missing is missing.

[gmalen]

Michael,

Wonderful, let's do this.

My expectation is that life will flow more effortlessly. That it will become more beautiful in some way or rather that I will be able to see the beauty in it more. I have fantasies about how life will change after awakening, like maybe I will find a meaningful career, maybe I’ll be able to teach this awakening thing to others and help them this way but on the other hand I also have a feeling that all these fantasies will lose the meaning that they have now as maybe the grasping for a better future will stop.

Even after crashing the gate, I get identified with thoughts or get that 'feeling' of being a separate person throughout the day like you. Completely normal. There are similar thoughts, habits, and feelings as before crashing the gate. The big difference is that these internal processes can never hoodwink the mind into the belief that there actually is a separate self because it's been SEEN IT FOR WHAT IT IS - just a bunch of sense impressions that the mind gathers up and calls 'me' in thought.

For example, suppose there is a university with all its students, libraries, employees, buildings, etc. In direct experience, can you point to the 'university' and find it? Is there some center-point or melting pot of these different aspects that you can touch, see, taste, hear, or smell and say "indeed, this here is the the 'university'"?

What if you took away the students, would it still be a university? What if all that's left is the buildings - still a university then?

Likewise, 'I' is pointing to things in direct experience, mainly sensations and thoughts, but is there an 'I' itself to be found at the center or as the owner of them?

I expect that I will be able to be more in the moment without constantly having my attention on thoughts, worries and ruminations. My expectation is also that I will get along with people around me better since I will not be in my head all the time so I can express myself more freely. I will not have all the anxiety that I have right now anymore. I expect some sort of relaxation and release of the body and mind and freeing up of energy that is currently used to uphold the image of “me”.

Some of these releases and deeper unbinding happen as realization deepens, but this initial step, seeing through the illusory self, doesn't change much about the character of 'Michael'. Did anything in reality actually change when you saw through the illusion of santa?

Say I extend my hands to you and, lying, say, here is a watermelon. 

And I give you an imaginary watermelon. 

You take the imaginary watermelon and “hold it”. Go ahead, do it. Hold the imaginary watermelon—huge—in between your hands. Now I ask you: what should you do to get rid of this watermelon in your hands? 

You can’t. There’s nothing there. It doesn’t make sense to ask that question, and in exactly the same way, it doesn’t make sense to ask the question “how can I get rid of or unmask the separate self?” There actually is no self. Never was. Ever. It was always imaginary, right from the start. 

It doesn’t need to fade. It’s not about identity fading. 

It’s about the truth — that identity doesn’t point to anything. Fade, not fade—whatever. The point is that it is fiction. The strength of the fiction or the content of thought is irrelevant - you can be out in nature with lots of mental space to see the truth of the fiction. OR you can be busy at work, caught up in trying to get things done and solve problems. Either way, the key is knowing that the separate self is fiction. Some days, I meditate a bit more and things are quieter and this is clear, other days I'm busy and the mind is a flurry of thoughts. SAME underlying reality. Impermanent states/feelings/thoughts come and go. No self or 'I' to be found.

So look at the “I” thought. That’s all that is needed. Look behind the “I” thought. What’s there?

Peace is missing right now. Peace from struggling with life/me and with figuring things out constantly. It’s not that some thing is missing to make life complete. It’s that not having the thought that something is missing is missing.

If awakening were to happen, it would be just this experience, right now as it is, simply without the belief that there is someone at the center of it. How is it to hear this?

Blessings,
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

So look at the “I” thought. That’s all that is needed. Look behind the “I” thought. What’s there?

There is something there that’s noticing the I thought which seems to be separate from it, which seems to keep the illusion going. I can somehow see that it just another ingrained thought. For example, when I think of the word “I” an abstract image of my body pops up, attention moves to the sensations in the head and body and somehow this solidifies the experience.
I’m currently sitting with this in my meditation practice where I try to investigate the experience of thinking. Where thoughts come from, the space in between, where they go and what the general experience of thinking is without the content.
There’s this belief that thoughts are arising but that would mean they arise to someone or something, which I think is part of the illusion of separation.

If awakening were to happen, it would be just this experience, right now as it is, simply without the belief that there is someone at the center of it. How is it to hear this?

It sounds freeing to not have to relate experience to a separate entity that owns it. Like that should be the natural state. Just free flowing experience. Sounds like freedom to me.

[gmalen]

Michael,

It sounds freeing to not have to relate experience to a separate entity that owns it. Like that should be the natural state. Just free flowing experience. Sounds like freedom to me.

Ya, freedom might be a suitable descriptor for it. And, let's affirm that it's not anything other than what's happening. This 'freedom' is in your experience already. So nothing is ever gained. Michael doesn't get something, reach a certain point, achieve a state or experience. It really is all already here. This a great north star, so if you ever find yourself expecting, fantasizing, etc., you can recognize that that's a thought and that what's really longed for is already here, even if it's veiled.

Take a moment with me and imagine yourself awakened, deeply realized, free from the self structure. Breathe it in. How would you feel, how you look, how would you talk? What feelings come up in the body? Rest here for a few moments.

Now recognize that that fantasy is a thought, a story, an image in the mind of a potential future/experience. Come back into this moment, into the senses. Now... if you don't refer to a thought, how do you know that you are not already awake?

If the thought about the future awakening was not true, why do you take the thought about the current non-awakened state as true? How are these thoughts different?

What if awakening was just a concept and there was no such thing as awake or not awake? Or another way to frame it - what if everything was already 100% awake, even when it dreams it isn't?

There is something there that’s noticing the I thought which seems to be separate from it, which seems to keep the illusion going. I can somehow see that it just another ingrained thought. For example, when I think of the word “I” an abstract image of my body pops up, attention moves to the sensations in the head and body and somehow this solidifies the experience.
I’m currently sitting with this in my meditation practice where I try to investigate the experience of thinking. Where thoughts come from, the space in between, where they go and what the general experience of thinking is without the content.
There’s this belief that thoughts are arising but that would mean they arise to someone or something, which I think is part of the illusion of separation

Great looking, Michael. Keep exploring what is and isn't a thought, and what you're taking to be 'you'. We'll be exploring this sense of self, especially how it ties into sensation and the 'body'. Before we dive in there, developing a shared understanding and experience of direct experience is important, namely, so that we can discern what is and isn't a thought.

------

There is a big difference between knowing that there is no separate self entity vs. seeing it firsthand in experience right now.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference. And that you really look in the exercises together.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. This is not an intellectual process or understanding.

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

----

Now, find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "MIchael" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Michael". Please, really try.

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "Michael" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Michael” (If any).
Well then.. if that's "Michael" Who's aware of those sensations?

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.


Gunnnnnnn

[CosmicJoke]

If the thought about the future awakening was not true, why do you take the thought about the current non-awakened state as true? How are these thoughts different?

I get the impression that every thought points back to here. The struggle is that some thoughts are believed to be true - whatever that means. I guess thought creates a parallel or virtual world where things are different than in reality and this parallel world seems so real that it seemingly contrasts with what is actually going on but this imagined world is only appearing in reality as part of reality and has no intrinsic reality apart from just the “sense of thinking” being experienced here. Often thought feels like having an itch (I guess contraction is what it’s called in spirituality) in consciousness if that makes sense. One feels drawn to scratch and tend to it but ultimately it’s just a sensation without meaning.

I have a big hang up with awakening that I would like to get your opinion on, namely the belief that after the realization the fear of death is gone instantly as I heard that many people say. Many people describe the experience of awakening as feeling like dying and I have this idea that if there is no fear at some point during this process then I’m not looking at the core issue. Is any of this true in your opinion? Can there be awakening and the immediate loss of fear of death without the fear of dying or the death of the imagined self right before? Or is all of this just more needless ideas that have no value to this process? The fear of the body and therefore “me” dying is very strong here in general.

Writing this I remember that yesterday I had some anxiety while walking around where it felt that something in me is resisting to let go into reality. There was this feeling that there are no boundaries in reality. Like there’s a singular central point somewhere in my head around which all of reality is experienced as one. A bit dreamlike too. Fully trying to let go of the center caused anxiety. I somewhat realize that this central point is also just a thought and that there is nothing there.

However, I’m not sure If all of this is just the mind imagining things or the mind trying to claim the experience or if it has nothing to do with what you are pointing to. There is a lot of doubt (Yes that’s another thought I know :)). Just wanted to throw it out, not trying to get into a discussion about concepts. Whenever I start to analyze these things, I get the feeling that it must be much simpler than what the thoughts and experiences (and most spiritual teachings) suggest.

Were you able to find and feel "Michael" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Michael” (If any).
Well then.. if that's "Michael" Who's aware of those sensations?

Michael as a solid permanent entity can’t be found.

Instinctively when I point to Michael my finger points at my face and the though “here” pops up. So this “here” thought claims to speak as Michael as the separate owner of the body. However, this makes no sense since it’s nothing permanent. Just a thought popping up. An itch in consciousness :) A thought can’t own anything apart in a thought constructed world. There is a belief that this thought doesn’t have to be there all the time but can just show up when requested, for example when looked for. So it’s essence is always there but it just speaks when required. Like a soul. Makes no sense and sounds literally insane so why do I get hung up on it?

I guess since the thought “here” pop’s up immediately after looking for Michael it seems like there is some kind of will to it as the thought is always on time and always seems to be on cue. There’s never a feeling of a “system error” during the question and the answer if that makes sense. Thinking feels very much as if it is willed by Michael into existence.

The thought “here” suggests that here is a location inside my head. But that too is just an abstract image my mind produces.

The sensations in the body can somewhat be seen to just be that but the identification with the body as the vessel for my existence is still strong (That’s where topic of death comes back again).

Will investigate this further until your reply.

[gmalen]

Michael,

The struggle is that some thoughts are believed to be true - whatever that means.

What does it mean to believe a thought? How does that happen? Who is choosing which thoughts to believe and which ones not to?

Try and repeat the thought internally "Santa Claus is real" several times. Do you believe this? Or is it just an empty thought? Did you choose to believe this or not? What is it like to have a thought that you don't believe in? Is it heavy or does it pull on any chords internally? Or is it light and meaningless, a fly on the wall, no big deal?

Now try the thought "I do not exist". Sit quietly for 2-3 minutes as you keep this thought in mind and see what arises internally. You can reflect on the same questions above and then read on afterwards.

This thought might be a bit more sticky because it has belief tied into it. In this case, we are saying the negative 'I do not exist' which activates the opposing belief 'I do exist!'. There might be an internal reaction kicking in with the energy of 'but, but!'. So in one sense, believing in a thought usually brings along a reaction to it as though it is true. When there is no more belief in a self, 'I' and 'me' thoughts will continue on, but there won't be the same reaction to them, there will be a knowing, and it won't have to be constantly questioned and investigated.

I have a big hang up with awakening that I would like to get your opinion on, namely the belief that after the realization the fear of death is gone instantly as I heard that many people say. Many people describe the experience of awakening as feeling like dying and I have this idea that if there is no fear at some point during this process then I’m not looking at the core issue. Is any of this true in your opinion? Can there be awakening and the immediate loss of fear of death without the fear of dying or the death of the imagined self right before? Or is all of this just more needless ideas that have no value to this process? The fear of the body and therefore “me” dying is very strong here in general.

As you said, "just more needless ideas that have no value to this process". Just thoughts. Not thought by you. Just doubt doubting. Cool. Let it be. You're doing great.

Has this fear of the body and 'me' dying always been strong or in particular as it relates to this process? Has it changed in any way during this process or just a general fear that's been there?

Writing this I remember that yesterday I had some anxiety while walking around where it felt that something in me is resisting to let go into reality. There was this feeling that there are no boundaries in reality. Like there’s a singular central point somewhere in my head around which all of reality is experienced as one. A bit dreamlike too. Fully trying to let go of the center caused anxiety. I somewhat realize that this central point is also just a thought and that there is nothing there.

The following is an in-depth exercise I want you to try with fear. When ‘fear’ or 'anxiety' appears again, or you can summon it now if able, become aware of where the sensation is appearing in the body. Close your eyes and notice everything that is arising along with the body sensation/s ie, thoughts and mental images and thoughts about the past events etc.

With eyes still closed and still noticing sensations, thoughts, images etc…investigate the following.

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word F E A R or the thought “I am “scared/fearful” (whatever the particular thought is) as typewritten word/s in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead.

Is the label or the thought the fearful self?
Does the label ‘fear’ or the thought know anything about fear, or is the word/thought just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ or thought itself, fearful?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word/thought itself that is fearful?

2) Are any mental images appearing? Just keep noticing what images are appearing and investigate the images.

Are those arising mental images the fearful self, or are they just images that are arising and subsiding?
Can you find anyone/anything in the images that is fearful?

3) While your eyes are still closed, look at the mental image/outline, more so a facsimile type image of the body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in image that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful, as you did in step 1.

4) Then once all thoughts and mental images have been investigated, look at the sensation. Divested of the thoughts and images that are attached to the sensation…all that is there is raw sensation.

Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.
Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ or other thoughts appears, go back to Step 1 and see the word/s ‘yes’ or the thought across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear, or that it is fearful?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
Can you find anyone/anything IN the sensation itself, or behind the sensation that is fearful?

If mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, go back and do step 2. Check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are an actual self that is fearful as you did in step 1.

5) With eyes still closed look carefully everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

Did you find anyone or anything?

When you have done this and when all thoughts, stories and images have faded out, what is left is just raw sensation. If thoughts and images continue to appear, let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. But once you are at just raw sensation without the thoughts, stories and images, allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it…remembering to breathe normally in and out through the nose.

If the sensation becomes too intense, inhale gently and fully into the sensation itself and exhale into the space around it. Do this several times if necessary. If it still remains too intense to be with, breathe deeply into the sensation again; notice the floor under your feet, your backside on the chair and the sounds in the room, and then open your eyes and notice what is in the room you are sitting in. Name those things out loud while still noticing the sensation - and remember to breathe normally! If the sensation does not dissipate at all, or only dissipates a little, that is okay. Just notice it without doing anything with it, and just go about your day and repeat the exercise later on until you are able to sit with the sensations without wanting to move away from it, without needing it to change or leave.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images; we are only LOOKING to see what those appearances actually are, as opposed to just believing what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS (appearing).

Let me know how you go. What did you find when you did this exercise. What happened?

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of fear
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’, or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

--------

Whenever I start to analyze these things, I get the feeling that it must be much simpler than what the thoughts and experiences (and most spiritual teachings) suggest.

!!!

-------

There is a belief that this thought doesn’t have to be there all the time but can just show up when requested, for example when looked for. So it’s essence is always there but it just speaks when required. Like a soul. Makes no sense and sounds literally insane so why do I get hung up on it?

Mm.. Well take some time to see if this is true. Surely, if a separate controlling self were there all the time, even when you weren't thinking about it, you'd still be able to find it. So, look right now. When you aren't thinking that there is a self, is there an 'i' or 'me' in direct experience?

And, when the thought is present, like the 'here' thought, what is it actually pointing to? What's really there behind the thought? What is truly found? Surely, if there is something there to find, you'd find it, ya?

--------

The sensations in the body can somewhat be seen to just be that but the identification with the body as the vessel for my existence is still strong (That’s where topic of death comes back again).

Nice, okay. We'll explore this next.

Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

What does it mean to believe a thought? How does that happen? Who is choosing which thoughts to believe and which ones not to?

Believing a thought means to mistake it as reality or as something true. Investigating a belief however always shows that there is no intrinsic reality in it (at least logically). I would say beliefs are just conceptual overlays on reality. They can become an intricate mind labyrinth but in the end it’s all made up. It is cohesive within itself but detached from reality.
The one that’s choosing to believe a thought is just another thought it seems. But even that thought doesn’t get chosen. It’s an endless game of trying to catch the thinker of the last thought, realizing that the last thought wasn’t chosen by me.

It's funny to see that the me in thought will always claim to be the chooser and doer of everything. Thought always has some reason as to why things are happening. It's its way of making sure it continues existing. A survival mechanism. That's why it seems so convincing. It always seems to have all the answers :)

Try and repeat the thought internally "Santa Claus is real" several times. Do you believe this? Or is it just an empty thought? Did you choose to believe this or not? What is it like to have a thought that you don't believe in? Is it heavy or does it pull on any chords internally? Or is it light and meaningless, a fly on the wall, no big deal?

Saying “Santa is real” it is clear that that statement is not true in reality. There’s no belief in it. I didn’t choose to belief that, it’s just apparently clear. There’s no heaviness to the thought. It’s dismissed immediately as nonsense.

Now try the thought "I do not exist". Sit quietly for 2-3 minutes as you keep this thought in mind and see what arises internally. You can reflect on the same questions above and then read on afterwards.

When I say the thought “I do not exist” to myself it also feels false as I’m obviously here to notice the thought. To be able to formulate the thought “I” must be here in some form.

This thought might be a bit more sticky because it has belief tied into it. In this case, we are saying the negative 'I do not exist' which activates the opposing belief 'I do exist!'. There might be an internal reaction kicking in with the energy of 'but, but!'. So in one sense, believing in a thought usually brings along a reaction to it as though it is true. When there is no more belief in a self, 'I' and 'me' thoughts will continue on, but there won't be the same reaction to them, there will be a knowing, and it won't have to be constantly questioned and investigated.

Yes this “but but!” reaction describes quite well what it feels like to say “I do not exist”. With all the spiritual jargon that I’ve acquired over the last year the identification with the “I” as the thought has now moved to the identification of “I” as the awareness of it. The belief that I exist is still there but now it disguises itself as awareness. Trying to let go of that belief seems to be a sticking point and is causing confusion.

Has this fear of the body and 'me' dying always been strong or in particular as it relates to this process? Has it changed in any way during this process or just a general fear that's been there?

It’s just a general fear I had during my lifetime. The fear of not existing anymore and what that would be like. Seems like I lost touch with that fear over the years by distracting and numbing myself. I’m 39 btw. I have this feeling that I need to get in touch with it again and explore it but it seems like it’s hiding itself.

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’, or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

I’m not able to let fear come up on command. Whenever I try to conjure it, nothing happens. Will continue trying.

Mm.. Well take some time to see if this is true. Surely, if a separate controlling self were there all the time, even when you weren't thinking about it, you'd still be able to find it. So, look right now. When you aren't thinking that there is a self, is there an 'i' or 'me' in direct experience?

And, when the thought is present, like the 'here' thought, what is it actually pointing to? What's really there behind the thought? What is truly found? Surely, if there is something there to find, you'd find it, ya?

The thought comes out of nowhere. If I had to name it, I would call that nowhere “me”. Seems like by trying to define that nothingness it gets solidified into this somewhat tangible soul essence. But yeah, in direct experience there is nothing.

The sensations in the body can somewhat be seen to just be that but the identification with the body as the vessel for my existence is still strong (That’s where topic of death comes back again).
Nice, okay. We'll explore this next.

Yes please. Experience even without a “me” that’s seemingly in control will stop when the body dies which “I” don’t want to happen. It is impossible to accept that even if I know that death is inevitable. Then you hear these teachers say that birth and death don’t exist which I kind of get since there’s no beginning or end to existence itself, but my limited perspective of reality will stop at some point.

Thank you for reading all of this and supporting me!

[gmalen]

Michael,

Yes this “but but!” reaction describes quite well what it feels like to say “I do not exist”. With all the spiritual jargon that I’ve acquired over the last year the identification with the “I” as the thought has now moved to the identification of “I” as the awareness of it. The belief that I exist is still there but now it disguises itself as awareness. Trying to let go of that belief seems to be a sticking point and is causing confusion.

Let's look more closely at awareness. First, take a stroll around the room and look: is there a walker or is walking happening? As you come back to the screen and read these words now, is there a reader or is reading happening? Is there someone who is aware or is awareness just happening, uncaused by a 'you'? Remember, we are looking into direct experience here, not the thought world. Thoughts are fine, let them pass, but they cannot touch reality in the way we are hoping to.

Is there anything special about consciousness / awareness / the witness? Is it as impersonal and natural as walking, eating, pooping?

As you start to ponder this, take 2-3 minutes to close your eyes and relax, settle into the moment. And then continue on with the inquiries below when your attention is collected:

In direct experience, what is personal about awareness? Where does it have the signature of 'michael'?

Is there someone controlling how awareness moves and functions, where attention is directed?

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

Look out ahead... Is there a seer separate from the seen?

Find a sound in your environment... is there a hearer that hears?

-------

I’m not able to let fear come up on command. Whenever I try to conjure it, nothing happens. Will continue trying

No worries. No need to conjure, it will come on its own when it's ready. If it arises at some point in our dialogue together, try and remember to come back to this fear exercise I gave you in the last message and go through it.

Believing a thought means to mistake it as reality or as something true. Investigating a belief however always shows that there is no intrinsic reality in it (at least logically). I would say beliefs are just conceptual overlays on reality. They can become an intricate mind labyrinth but in the end it’s all made up. It is cohesive within itself but detached from reality.
The one that’s choosing to believe a thought is just another thought it seems. But even that thought doesn’t get chosen. It’s an endless game of trying to catch the thinker of the last thought, realizing that the last thought wasn’t chosen by me.

love it, great seeing. Appreciate the way you're engagin with all this and responding to the questions clearly / concisely.

Yes please. Experience even without a “me” that’s seemingly in control will stop when the body dies which “I” don’t want to happen. It is impossible to accept that even if I know that death is inevitable. Then you hear these teachers say that birth and death don’t exist which I kind of get since there’s no beginning or end to existence itself, but my limited perspective of reality will stop at some point.

Here's your fist exercise with the body:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:


Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?


Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

If you think you find a boundary, how thick is it? 1cm, 1mm, 1 inch? Does it have a color? Does it have a texture?


Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?


What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question.

Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying).

Cheers!
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Let's look more closely at awareness. First, take a stroll around the room and look: is there a walker or is walking happening? As you come back to the screen and read these words now, is there a reader or is reading happening? Is there someone who is aware or is awareness just happening, uncaused by a 'you'? Remember, we are looking into direct experience here, not the thought world. Thoughts are fine, let them pass, but they cannot touch reality in the way we are hoping to.

The only thing that can be found when looking directly is the body walking and some thoughts around it. Reading is happening. Seeing the screen is happening. Thoughts about it are happening.
My next sentence was going to be “But why does it feel like I’m the one doing the reading?”. Another thought. Thoughts chasing each other with no thinker or originator being found. Every question that I am supposedly having feels like it’s not worth asking because it would be just another thought. It feels like just becoming good at noticing this in real time without getting caught up in the story is a good practice.

Is there anything special about consciousness / awareness / the witness? Is it as impersonal and natural as walking, eating, pooping?

As you start to ponder this, take 2-3 minutes to close your eyes and relax, settle into the moment. And then continue on with the inquiries below when your attention is collected:

In direct experience, what is personal about awareness? Where does it have the signature of 'michael'?

I would describe awareness as devoid of any qualities. Completely impersonal. Generated by no one.
This is an inquiry question I have during meditation sometimes: “What is the texture or quality of me?”. Investigating this seems to lead to a place where the mind kind of gets stuck not knowing what to say because this lack of describable qualities is somehow recognized.

Is there someone controlling how awareness moves and functions, where attention is directed?

Again, it’s only more thoughts that claim to be responsible for controlling awareness and only after actually checking. Most of the times one isn’t even aware of where attention is. If the “I” would be able to control it, why would it sometimes not be aware of it and then sometimes seemingly be aware of it?
It’s the main issue when trying to sit still. Awareness is all over the place and then thoughts come up implying a controller or arguing with themselves about lack of control.
“Why can’t I concentrate on my breath?”. Suggesting there is someone there to control.

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

Look out ahead... Is there a seer separate from the seen?

Find a sound in your environment... is there a hearer that hears?

Whenever I look there is just the experience, just the seen, just the heard. The experiencer of all of this is always a thought. It is hard to recognize this in real time since it happens so quickly and seems very subtle and deeply ingrained in how the world is perceived.
I can somehow recognize how attention moves between the experience and what the mind comes up with about it. It’s like a back an forth between attention being on the sensation for a very short time and the mind immediately interpreting it, thus creating the experiencer. Seems like a very tricky illusion.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

When checking for what I call the body there is only a cloud of sensations. Completely undefinable when directly investigated. Not even a location can be specified. Just sensation. “Here”.
But there is a persistent mental overlay of the body and a space that is imagined by the mind. The mind tries to map the sensations to different images it has of the body. Another deeply ingrained process it seems. Very difficult to “touch” the raw sensations without attention immediately going to the mind and twisting it up.
But it doesn’t help with the issue of death. Even if the body isn’t real and it’s just a bunch of sensations. When these sensations stop there is no me anymore. I don’t see how that solves the fear of death. I guess this is something that’s only realized after awakening or maybe leading up to it so maybe no need to ponder it anymore.

[CosmicJoke]

"I exist" seems to be the basic misunderstanding here. A deeply hidden survival mechanism it seems. I as a thought, I as featureless nothingness, I as the illusion, I as the one that is saying things, I as the feeling of existing, I as whatever, I as the one who wants to let go, I as the one who can't let go, I as the witness, I as the shapeshifter.
I want to say that this is so difficult so see but then again who is saying it? All just more and more thoughts. Everything I write is just more thoughts. Seems completely pointless but still there is no clear seeing.

[CosmicJoke]

I as the deeply hidden survival mechanism. All of this just confirming my existence. Thoughts completely reach their limit. Every idea just confirms my existence.

[gmalen]

Michael,

The only thing that can be found when looking directly is the body walking and some thoughts around it. Reading is happening. Seeing the screen is happening. Thoughts about it are happening.
My next sentence was going to be “But why does it feel like I’m the one doing the reading?”. Another thought.

Yes! Just like 'reading is happening', now it's just 'thought is happening'. That simple. Even when it refers to a separate entity, that's okay! Does it magically 'poof' one into existence? Or is it referring to nothing and it can simply be what it is, a thought, happening now?

Thoughts chasing each other with no thinker or originator being found. Every question that I am supposedly having feels like it’s not worth asking because it would be just another thought.

!!!

I would describe awareness as devoid of any qualities. Completely impersonal. Generated by no one.
This is an inquiry question I have during meditation sometimes: “What is the texture or quality of me?”. Investigating this seems to lead to a place where the mind kind of gets stuck not knowing what to say because this lack of describable qualities is somehow recognized.

:)

Again, it’s only more thoughts that claim to be responsible for controlling awareness and only after actually checking. Most of the times one isn’t even aware of where attention is. If the “I” would be able to control it, why would it sometimes not be aware of it and then sometimes seemingly be aware of it?
It’s the main issue when trying to sit still. Awareness is all over the place and then thoughts come up implying a controller or arguing with themselves about lack of control.
“Why can’t I concentrate on my breath?”. Suggesting there is someone there to control.

!

Whenever I look there is just the experience, just the seen, just the heard. The experiencer of all of this is always a thought. It is hard to recognize this in real time since it happens so quickly and seems very subtle and deeply ingrained in how the world is perceived.

Yes, this deeper unraveling in real time recognition takes time and continued seeing. The work we are doing here together is simply seeing through the illusion of 'me' so that work can truly begin!

But it doesn’t help with the issue of death. Even if the body isn’t real and it’s just a bunch of sensations. When these sensations stop there is no me anymore.

Look in experience now, are 'you' the sensations? What are 'you' made of? If 'you' died, what would no longer exist in direct experience?

I don’t see how that solves the fear of death. I guess this is something that’s only realized after awakening or maybe leading up to it so maybe no need to ponder it anymore.

Nothing can solve the fear of death for the individual. And nothing needs to. The individual remains as the individual, even when it's initially seen to be an illusion. Time will massage out the reality of what's true and what's a lie. Please look into this exercise:

------

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering; but at that moment, let's say you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat and a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional or a kind of lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any sensation (Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that? What do you find?

--------

I want to say that this is so difficult so see but then again who is saying it? All just more and more thoughts. Everything I write is just more thoughts. Seems completely pointless but still there is no clear seeing.

'but still there is no clear seeing' is the simply the next thought, but for this one, you actually believe it. Back to the santa claus illusion, even once you wake up to the fact that there is no santa, there still is a man in a red suit with presents taking pictures with kids at the mall. Nothing has changed. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

Likewise, even when you wake up to the fact that there is no 'you', there still are thoughts, feelings, habits, reactivity, resistance, all of the things of which you took to be 'you' before. I'm going to copy/past what I wrote above for sake of emphasis: "this deeper unraveling in real time recognition takes time and continued seeing. The work we are doing here together is simply seeing through the illusion of 'me' so that work can truly begin!"

Such great clarity and seeing, I'm loving it.
Gunnar

[CosmicJoke]

Hi Gunnar,

I'm traveling this weekend until tomorrow. Will reply tomorrow. Just wanted to let you know.


Cheers,
Michael