Awakening Saxophonist

[DimPal]

hey,

Haven't been able to stick with the inquiry you last suggested, even though then it felt very relevant, now it is almost missing the mark. The sense of lack though is there, definitely something to see there. What was wondering more about is more about how the selfing comes about. How does it manifest, what thought patterns bring it about.

More improtantly. How does it keep happening when the obvious culprits are being quite and the bare sense of body plus a mental image is what sustains it, I feel that's where the game is at. Something that I feel ties very much to this is mindfulness, or abiding in felt sense with or without having mental images, it feels so difficult or slippery to stay with that but when it starts going it is quite open and enjoyable.

Dimos

[gmalen]

Hi Dimos,

Haven't been able to stick with the inquiry you last suggested, even though then it felt very relevant, now it is almost missing the mark. The sense of lack though is there, definitely something to see there. What was wondering more about is more about how the selfing comes about. How does it manifest, what thought patterns bring it about.

Spend 5 minutes looking for the center of this lack. What is it made of? What is it when the label 'lack' is taken away? Try to see how this 'lack' is 'holding you back' from seeing clearly? And also please inquire: who is lacking? Who's 'lack' is this?

Just play with these. No right or wrong. No magic wand inquiry. And let it go when it's no longer relevant. Not forcing anything. Just saying hello to whatever arises. Frustration, road blocks, resistance, hopelessness. All natural and normal phenomena on this path. Who's controlling them? Where do they come from?

Please indulge in this exercise:

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Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is the stream even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1.  Can you find anywhere where "Dimos" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made - ex. what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (ex - professional meeting or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Dimos' is responsible – if so, responsible to what and for what?

As always, relax & have fun!

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More importantly. How does it keep happening when the obvious culprits are being quite and the bare sense of body plus a mental image is what sustains it, I feel that's where the game is at. Something that I feel ties very much to this is mindfulness, or abiding in felt sense with or without having mental images, it feels so difficult or slippery to stay with that but when it starts going it is quite open and enjoyable.

Give each of these reminders / queries some time to sit with.. This feeling or vague sense of a separate self is not a problem, or something we want to make go away. What we are doing in the most neutral way possible is looking if a separate self can be found anywhere in the direct experience. Does that mental image or feeling that there is a separate self mean that there is a separate self somewhere?

CAN YOU FIND A SEPARATE SELF ANYWHERE IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE RIGHT NOW?

IS THERE A PART OF THE STREAM THAT IS PROPPED UP/DISTANCED/OVERHEAD/SEPARATED THAT OVERLOOKS AND MANAGES THE STREAM'S FLOW, DIRECTION, CONTENTS, ETC?

What if that feeling/mental image of a self could be welcomed in all its glory AND no separate self can be found. What would that mean for the struggle of this awakening stuff? What if the struggle and frustration were effortlessly found in the stream, too. If nothing were a part from the stream, where does that leave you?

Gunnar

[DimPal]

Spend 5 minutes looking for the center of this lack. What is it made of? What is it when the label 'lack' is taken away? Try to see how this 'lack' is 'holding you back' from seeing clearly? And also please inquire: who is lacking? Who's 'lack' is this?

The label falls of quite fast, no lack can even be found after a while, just sensations that are mistaken for such.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made - ex. what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (ex - professional meeting or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Yes, such decisions are made on their own, there are mental images that pop up of what is available or desireable and then the intention to prepare something comes up and the body moves based on that. Now it is quite clear and not as much when in happened this morning.

CAN YOU FIND A SEPARATE SELF ANYWHERE IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE RIGHT NOW?

IS THERE A PART OF THE STREAM THAT IS PROPPED UP/DISTANCED/OVERHEAD/SEPARATED THAT OVERLOOKS AND MANAGES THE STREAM'S FLOW, DIRECTION, CONTENTS, ETC?

Looking anywhere no self can be found. It feels like there is one and what it does is this very inquiry. At this moment I am the one looking into experience and seeing things arise, if I don't look carefully then it feels like the typing for example is what I do, but when looked closer its automatic. Taking one step, waiting for the next automatic intention or thought, but I am the one looking and evaluating, as I am looking into thought and intention so closely, body sensations creep up and they create this falls impression of not doing something right. All is good, no problem in any of that, natural but but but..there is something to do. Maybe I will just sit, not do even any kind of evaluation and see what happens.

Dimos

[gmalen]

Dimos,

Maybe I will just sit, not do even any kind of evaluation and see what happens.

Yes, I like this idea. And, likely, evaluation and looking and inquiring may continue in some way. If 'you' are not actively doing it, who is? Is this activity just as neutral and impersonal as the sounds around you, the sensations in your foot, the random thoughts about music?

It feels like there's a 'you'. Now look and see if anything is really there. If that next sound you hear is uncontrollable, spontaneous, and therefore not you, what makes that feeling of a 'you' you?

Gunnar

[gmalen]

I'm inspired to offer more exercises as we continue to engage. If you haven't done them before, please give them a good shot. The apparent point of it may be obvious but the experience of it in practice is important.

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Mind Labeling Experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience. Experience happens. Thoughts about that experience are just like post-it notes that you "stick" onto experiences.

This exercise takes about 20 minutes and you will need a blank Docs/Word document. You don’t need to post everything you write, just your answers to the questions below!

This exercise is broken into two 10-minute sections. For each 10-minute section pay attention to any bodily sensation. Is there any tightening or any relaxing?

For the first 10 minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
_
For example:

I am sitting on a chair
I am thinking about mom
I am looking at inspiration pictures
I am feeling hungry
I am sketching a picture_

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now in the present moment. Notice how this feels in the body.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. **Again, watch what is happening in the body.**

_For example:

Sitting on a chair
Typing
Breathing
Blinking
Hearing the clock
_

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[gmalen]

I'm inspired to ask, too: What holds you back from seeing, UNEQUIVOCALLY AND UNDOUBTEDLY, a separate self does not exist; the 'I'/'me' in the thought world does not point to anything of substance.

What evidence do you have to the contrary? Or is this absolutely clear Dimos?

G

[gmalen]

And.. Please sit still several times during the day, for a few minutes at least, let experience unfold by itself (i.e. coming and going of sense perceptions and thoughts (mainly images and inner speech)) and just be curious about how the experience of a separate self is constructed in real time. What do you notice?

The next time you find time to sit quietly, feel free to digest these queries.

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

3. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there
simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that
there's one continuous story?

4. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before
it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can
you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or
impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

Please take your time with all this, and stay engaged as it feels right.
Gunnar

[DimPal]

Hi,

Thanks for all these ideas, will get back to you soon.

Dimos

[DimPal]

I'm inspired to ask, too: What holds you back from seeing, UNEQUIVOCALLY AND UNDOUBTEDLY, a separate self does not exist; the 'I'/'me' in the thought world does not point to anything of substance.

What evidence do you have to the contrary? Or is this absolutely clear Dimos?

No idea. As I look no self can be found but there is still a sense of agency. I am looking into what feels like that agency and can't find something that is truly a self there.

I think "I" and see what it refers to. Who was the one that just had this thought? There it is, in the intention to have the thought, a sense of a thinker having this thought, but that was also a result of a process that is not me, but now it's in the past and this very thought is suggesting that I am there. I look again , in sight ,in sound, in sensations, no self, in random appearing thoughts no self. But in this very simple intention that is like a thought I am bound right now, without knowing why, without any proof. So I don't exactly believe I am it, it could very easily be just like all other things, what in the world is keeping it/me together?

it's as if It's not possible to look to where I am looking from. The moment I look the point of view has shifted slightly. Being someone who can see something happen or see that is no self in it self is a paradox, as there will be a self seeing that.

Also I spent some time with those inquiries and what I ramble about above is what it came down to.

Dimos

[gmalen]

Dimos,

No idea. As I look no self can be found but there is still a sense of agency. I am looking into what feels like that agency and can't find something that is truly a self there.

Keep looking. Who creates the sense of agency? Where does the sense of agency come from? Give each of these a good try:

1. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' How did the decision come about? Also if it seemingly was decided before, what decided that, the time, the decision?

2. Can you choose the quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the next physical sensation that will arise?

3. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

4. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared? Try it with writing out several numbers. Even if a pattern seems to emerge, what decided that pattern?

I think "I" and see what it refers to. Who was the one that just had this thought? There it is, in the intention to have the thought, a sense of a thinker having this thought, but that was also a result of a process that is not me, but now it's in the past and this very thought is suggesting that I am there. I look again , in sight ,in sound, in sensations, no self, in random appearing thoughts no self. But in this very simple intention that is like a thought I am bound right now, without knowing why, without any proof. So I don't exactly believe I am it, it could very easily be just like all other things, what in the world is keeping it/me together?

it's as if It's not possible to look to where I am looking from. The moment I look the point of view has shifted slightly. Being someone who can see something happen or see that is no self in it self is a paradox, as there will be a self seeing that.

Why is there a 'you' that is looking 'from' somewhere? Is there a self somewhere that is aware? What if there were just the whole of life, including the belief in a subject and object happening by itself? As you elude to, awareness is uncontrolled and impersonal like all other phenomena. It's simply a strongly held belief that 'I am aware'. 'I am the one that awareness emanates from'. Is this true? Explore these thoughts/beliefs with great precision like I know you can and do.

PLEASE TAKE NOTE: These investigations will not make you see anything beyond what you all ready see in direct experience, and have always been seeing, ORDINARY STUFF, within the five senses and movement of thought!! This is very important. This is all very simple. People get stuck in wanting something beyond the normal. The only change we aim for here, is that it becomes clear for you, that there has never been a self/me/I except as a belief. This might come with much feeling, or not, it might feel very relieving, or not. Only criterium for success in this investigation is that it is seen clearly, that separate self is an idea. You will most likely not see something you don't see all ready. If you happen to hit some meditative state, it will come and go, it's not the purpose here.

How do you react to this? What emotional reactions come up? Please answer with some writing without controlling or going slow, let every "part of you" speak, also the most child-like and those with the biggest and most lovely dreams of something better to come from realizing no-self. Welcome every voice/part of Dimos.

While seeing no-self will not bring you to see anything beyond what anyone can see with their senses in normal life, it will enable the sudden or gradual honoring of all feelings and experiences (really the whole rainbow of human and mammalian emotion and experience and whatever else comes) without needing to control and without needing to believe negative stories about self, seeing them for what they are - stories, selfing. Stories like "I am unworthy" or "my life sucks" will be discovered as natural expressions of life, they don't need to be believed/reified as truth, and they don't need to be changed or made go away, they are just expressions of humanity, they can be seen for what they are, they can naturally remind to seeing and compassion, and when seeing happens, movement towards harmonious/loving action on the conventional level is natural.

Crossing the Gateless Gate is a profound changeless change and it will never be possible to tell in a story (all though we can share stories of how things move on the conventional level), because it only recognized as seen, never as told.

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I feel the impetus to push together again and re-energize this deep looking. I feel it's right under your nose.

Gunnnnn

[gmalen]

Dimos,

What's fresh, Dimos? How are you? How are you feeling about this process together?

Gunnar

[DimPal]

What's fresh, Dimos? How are you? How are you feeling about this process together?

Hey, looking continues but life has been overly busy, even loosing the balance many days of what is healthy or finding times for things that support me long term. But it is what it is, plenty of opportunity to grow and to see things come up in this too. But definitely with all the speed and overstimulation, deeply questioning the sense of self has been pushed aside, getting lost in the noise of trying to not forget something important and be on time.

There is a slight sense of disappointment , as I don't see how anything could shift to a permanent less identified way of looking. At the same time when this doubt thoughts come up I see them as thoughts and nothing else. and the body sensations also as what they are. But what is then grasping me? Its obviously the one wondering , asking "what is then grasping me?" . So if I see this, and I often do, what is going to break the circle and set me free, lift me up and out of the narrow view of tangled identity to seeing broadly everything the moment it arises without a point of a seer?

Here of course I remember some things. 1) there is no future event like that. 2) staying here with everything in its okayness is all there is to do, or to not do. 3) i have done that in the most honest way possible for years and still there is no obvious change in the way i see things. Put this into my crazy busy schedule and progress is basically zero, another way to say there is frustration. 4) at the same time life is great, plenty of gratitude, doing fun things with music, even a sense of why go beyond what is basically okay ,in an ordinary "being-a-person" kind of way. I don't have the deep trauma or unjustified pain or rage that some do, or energetic events or whatever. Is there a chance that my energetic charge is not enough to push through? Just another thought , cant believe that for a second. This loop, back and forth and to say "its tiring" and see that set of thought and sensation is liberating.

thats how far i get for now

Dimos

[gmalen]

Dimos,

Lovely to hear from you. Thank you for reflecting and sharing where you're at.

There is a slight sense of disappointment , as I don't see how anything could shift to a permanent less identified way of looking.

Yes, disappointing that there isn't always big fireworks here to celebrate 'us' crossing the finish line. That's why it's the gateless gate. In the world of thought, it truly is an endless race that nobody wins. In reality, there is no race. No winner. Nothing really changes when an illusion falls away, does it?

But what is then grasping me?

A great question. Or perhaps better put: What am I believing is grasping me?

So if I see this, and I often do, what is going to break the circle and set me free, lift me up and out of the narrow view of tangled identity to seeing broadly everything the moment it arises without a point of a seer?

Who is caught in the circle, the narrow view? Who gets lost in a thought? What actually happens in that apparent process?

i have done that in the most honest way possible for years and still there is no obvious change in the way i see things. Put this into my crazy busy schedule and progress is basically zero, another way to say there is frustration

Yes, a nice hook here, a sticky story. And it hurts, I feel you. But is it true? What's here now without a narrative about your awakening, your life, your path, your practice, your achievements and disappointments? Can frustration, resistance, thoughts, steal the truth out of experience? Or are they one with it, in it, as it?

4) at the same time life is great, plenty of gratitude, doing fun things with music, even a sense of why go beyond what is basically okay ,in an ordinary "being-a-person" kind of way. I don't have the deep trauma or unjustified pain or rage that some do, or energetic events or whatever. Is there a chance that my energetic charge is not enough to push through? Just another thought , cant believe that for a second. This loop, back and forth and to say "its tiring" and see that set of thought and sensation is liberating.

Your energetic charge is more than enough Dimos, anyone can wake up and there is a ripeness there, I know. What evidence do you have that you are not awake? Can a thought telling you you're not awake touch what is really real and true? Can you really know that you are awake or not by the content of a thought? Who do these thoughts refer to? Who could be or not be awake? How would 'you' know?

Throughout this process, dis-identification from thought deepens and deepens, until there's less and less thought that is seen as 'you'.. but the final vestiges of identification are the most fundamental, sticky, painful. Things like,'I'm just not good enough'' (for this, but in general, too). This shame is the core of identity and the seeking energy.

Hope these pointers serve you. And happy to hear your life is great as it is, who needs awakening anyway?? Who needs awakening anyway?....

Happy to engage however it supports you, I may reach out every so often if I don't hear from you. Can always zoom again if it speaks to you.

Gunn

[DimPal]

Nothing really changes when an illusion falls away, does it

?

There is release and a sense of "how shortsighted I was for not seeing it" maybe relief, falling away of the need to chase. Maybe this is different though.

Who is caught in the circle, the narrow view? Who gets lost in a thought? What actually happens in that apparent process

No one, that is just a thought, so in the process the repeated seeing of what is not self is happening. At this moment I saw slightly that there will never be something that truely is me, or a location where I truly reside. Still there is a hope that there is something, but I know there is not, how can I dive deeper into this, to have absolutely no doubt about the lack of anything that can be something specific.

Also I am wondering, do visual thoughts have the same power to hold identity as verbal ones? I don't have the same clarity with visual thoughts, even when they are recognized they persist. For example there is this mental image of my face when I close my eyes but I can't understand how this image really is, how do I see mentally the front of my face if the image implies I am behind it? I try to look but it doesn't make sense and can't see it clearly. I don't know if I should abandon this particular investigation or if I need to persist and calmly keep looking. This is also where it takes me if I ask who is the one that is looking. It's there.

Dimos

[gmalen]

Dimos,

Nice to hear from you.

Nothing really changes when an illusion falls away, does it

There is release and a sense of "how shortsighted I was for not seeing it" maybe relief, falling away of the need to chase. Maybe this is different though.

Ya. This right now, this moment, is literally it. Nothing to chase, nothing in the future (because that's a thought) could ever bring you closer to this. It's a relief, yes.

And keep in mind that even resistance is okay and natural. It's pointing out where we still need to surrender. Oh hi resistance. Welcome. Thank you. I appreciate your kind intentions to protect me and make me feel good all the time. And, that's not possible. What if we relax and feel into this together, and see if things are still okay?

Who is caught in the circle, the narrow view? Who gets lost in a thought? What actually happens in that apparent process

No one, that is just a thought, so in the process the repeated seeing of what is not self is happening. At this moment I saw slightly that there will never be something that truely is me, or a location where I truly reside. Still there is a hope that there is something, but I know there is not, how can I dive deeper into this, to have absolutely no doubt about the lack of anything that can be something specific.

How can you dive deeper and have no doubt? Keep looking for it, that 'something' specific, that landing pad, that security. By holding beliefs up to the light of what is, they continue to fall away. So just inquire, what's really here? What is real beyond thought? Can the content of thought touch what is?

At this moment I saw slightly that there will never be something that truely is me, or a location where I truly reside.

Only slightly, huh? What's stopping the jury from confirming that 'there is nothing separate from life, no separate entity called me or I. That's just a word in that thought that points to nothing real.'
We were conditioned to believe this before, but now, a thorough investigation has been underway. What stone is left unturned? What doubt, fear, resistance remains?

Look for 'yourself' right now, is it as clear as day that there is no entity there? Just seeing, just hearing, just feeling, just thinking, etc. Just those experiences, on their own. Had by no one. Is it clear when you look that this is the way things are?

but I can't understand how this image really is, how do I see mentally the front of my face if the image implies I am behind it?

'You' don't. No one does. Look again. Is there anything else but the image? Is there a seer of the image? It's not complicated either, not elaborate. It's yes or no :) Thoughts may say otherwise, but what's clear beyond the conceptual mind? Can a thought hold any truth value?

I don't know if I should abandon this particular investigation or if I need to persist and calmly keep looking.

Trust your gut. Remember everything is happening on its own already. Even inclinations to practice and inquire. Everything. Follow the rabbit hole of control back to its source... 'You' could throw up your hands and say 'I am never going to make a decision about anything ever again!' And the saga of Dimos would continue on, not missing a beat. In fact, it might even be a better way to live... Decisions would still be made, it would just be clear that they were not made by 'you'. ;)
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Gunn ~