Awakening Saxophonist

[DimPal]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of this is that the sense of self, often behind the eyes, is an illusory subject in contrast to a world of objects. In investigating experience we see clearly that that is not a reality as such a self can not be found. I have a sense of this but my understanding is quite intellectual.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone to give me some guidance or pointers specific to my situation on this path, in a way that online videos have not been able to address. The goal is awakening but at this stage it is not clear how much this is a desire to get some form of validation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To get some guidance or pointers specific to my situation on this path, in a way that online videos have not been able to address. The goal is awakening but at this stage it is not clear how much this is a desire to get some form of validation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started with reading Tolle's book when I was about 14, it had a huge impact. I grew up with meditation in my family with parents that follow a consistent yogic practice. Then a lot of experimenting with practices like noting and later vipassana with one 10day retreat, which also was quite impactful mainly because of having the experience of what "Banga Nana" and a lot of tension and fear dissolving with that. Recently followed Angelo Dillulo's online retreat. I don't have a consistent meditation practice and I just observe as much as possible during daily life. Suffering or drama of various form is already for years at a minimum as a result of constant looking but the sense of self is still quite fixed behind the eyes.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[gmalen]

Greetings - shall i refer to you as Dimpal?

My name is Gunnar - I’d be happy to guide you. I too have experience with tolle, noting, 10 day vipassana, Angelo Dilullo. Sounds like we've both been around the block.. ;) Is music your main pursuit/passion/work?

Disclaimers & FAQ:

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- Please read LU’s disclaimer here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- Please read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in LU’s FAQ here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)

Agreements together:

- The momentum of inquiry is important. **Post at least once a day or every second day.** If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. I will do the same.
- Please do not hold anything back: what you tell me is what I use to point you. 100% honesty is very important. **If you have difficulty expressing anger, fear, guilt or shame, please try your best and we can work from there.**
- When answering questions, don’t answer from memory, **look into your immediate, direct experience: smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts (not the content of thoughts).** Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
- Throughout this exploration, I would like you to **answer all questions that I have written using the quote function:** [https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ](https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ). Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response!
- **Please put aside all other teachings** (videos, books, teachers, etc) during this period together. Direct all your focus into the inquiries we’re exploring. If you have a daily meditation practice, I encourage you to continue it, but it’s not necessary for this exploration.
- I like to use All Caps sometimes when I am pointing to something I wish to drive home. If this bothers you at some point, let me know.

Do these agreements work for you?
What time country and time zone are you in?

If this feels like a good fit for you, I’d like to start by exploring your expectations around awakening or passing through the gate:

How will life change?

How will you change?

What will be different?

What is missing right now?


Cheers,
Gunnar

[gmalen]

Just sending another message so the server notifies me when a reply is posted. Disregard this.

[DimPal]

Hello dear Gunnar,

You can address my as Dimos, thats my first name. Yes, music is my focus and main job. I spend quite a bit of time teaching and playing saxophone and composing. I just love the sound of the instrument! Hey, also cool that you are familiar with the practices I mentioned!

[gmalen]

Dimos,

Sweet, sounds like a satisfying way to spend your life.

If you're up for the journey together, take a look through that first email and respond to the questions in it using the quote function. Till then :)

Peace,
G

[DimPal]

Do these agreements work for you?

Yes

What time country and time zone are you in?

I live in the Netherlands, Central European Summer Time (+2)

If this feels like a good fit for you, I’d like to start by exploring your expectations around awakening or passing through the gate:

How will life change?

There is a belief that without this subtle sense of lack there will be greater freedom and I will be able to live life without any "but".

How will you change?

I don't know for the most part. Maybe be more creative and intuitive especially with my relation to music.

What will be different?

I can only speculate, maybe the sense of self wont be thought to be "here" and everything else "there". Maybe the subtle fear of death won't be there. And maybe because of these I will be acting in different ways.

What is missing right now?

A sense of completion that comes with the thought or belief that there is work to do in order to fully awaken. Or like something is not being seen clearly enough which could trigger some kind of change in perception. Also, a sense of lack is tied to financial or professional success and the idea of living an ideal life.

p.s. Not sure if I am using the thread correctly, so please let me know if there is an issue.

[gmalen]

Dimos,

A quick heads up - especially early on, I may be offering you more exercises to make sure we are on the same page and to get the ball rolling. Please try them wholeheartedly, even if they seem simple or something you already understand. Trust the process :)

How will life change?
There is a belief that without this subtle sense of lack there will be greater freedom and I will be able to live life without any "but".

How will you change?
I don't know for the most part. Maybe be more creative and intuitive especially with my relation to music.

What will be different?
I can only speculate, maybe the sense of self wont be thought to be "here" and everything else "there". Maybe the subtle fear of death won't be there. And maybe because of these I will be acting in different ways.

Great to notice that all these hopes and expectations are only speculations. That's all they could ever be. Imaginary futures in the thought world that don't exist and could never exist in actuality. The paradox is that if awakening were to happen, it would be just this. ALL OF IT. Nothing other than it. Look right now. What is here? What is not here? What is of thought? What is not of thought?

Please try this exercise:

----------

Please try this spoon exercise now: Spoon exercise

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a minute.

Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.

Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

The questions are there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

---------------

What is missing right now?
A sense of completion that comes with the thought or belief that there is work to do in order to fully awaken. Or like something is not being seen clearly enough which could trigger some kind of change in perception. Also, a sense of lack is tied to financial or professional success and the idea of living an ideal life.

Please take a few minutes and join me in this exercise. Relax, settle in, take a few deep breaths. Take in the surrounding - the sounds, sights, sensations for a few moments.

Now with eyes open and/or closed, look for that which is missing, simply inquiring, "What is missing (that is not in direct experience right now?) Notice thought formations as merely thoughts. Like in the spoon exercise above, you might notice 'oh, those are just imaginary concepts or thought worlds'. Is there anything missing when there isn't a thought saying there is?

Look in your immediate, felt experience. Is there any indication of something missing in the hearing, seeing, sensations, taste, smell? Is there any right or wrong, good or bad, enough or not enough, in the senses?

p.s. Not sure if I am using the thread correctly, so please let me know if there is an issue.

Perfect!

G

[DimPal]

On the spoon exercise. It is pretty clear what is a thought what is not. Mental images of a spoon or of a pink elephant are thoughts, the inner repeating of the word spoon is a thought, a song stuck "in my head" is a thought.

How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Imagining is a mental image or talk, all else that is available to see, feel etc.. are seeming objects in experience.

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

This is rather tricky. If I stay now with experience it's as if the image does not arise. But sometimes, especially in social interactions I realize that there is a mental image of a body to whom the other person is talking to. If I just sit and generate an image of me, yes it is immediately clear that it is an image. If I sit and sense what the "i" refers to, there are some sensations and images tied to those sensations, almost in a way to be able to locate the different body parts.

Look in your immediate, felt experience. Is there any indication of something missing in the hearing, seeing, sensations, taste, smell? Is there any right or wrong, good or bad, enough or not enough, in the senses?

Hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling are what they are, just sights, just sounds, nothing wrong there. But body sensations have negative connotations and there is a desire that they were not. Heaviness, pains, itchiness, tention on the belly etc. Of course if I look close enough and for long enough (especially in a retreat) those are seen as meaningless molecules of sensation but I can't maintain such concentration in daily life.

[gmalen]

Dimos,

This is rather tricky. If I stay now with experience it's as if the image does not arise. But sometimes, especially in social interactions I realize that there is a mental image of a body to whom the other person is talking to. If I just sit and generate an image of me, yes it is immediately clear that it is an image.

Ya, sometimes the image or sense of a self may arise (strongly), other times not. If you look closely, it will change moment to moment, day to day. It's a hoax. Nothing's really there. Keep looking to see for yourself. Please tell me, What does the word 'I' or 'me' point to, here and now?

That's normal in social situations, and that mental image is completely fine, we don't have to get rid of any part of experience. There comes the recognition and clarity that none of that mental imaging or thought form point to anything real in direct experience, but it still occurs. No problem.

If I sit and sense what the "i" refers to, there are some sensations and images tied to those sensations, almost in a way to be able to locate the different body parts.

If I told you to find Santa in the room, what would you say to me? You might say that Santa is an illusion, that he does not exist in reality. What are the components of Santa that exist in reality? The thought of Santa. Feelings of Santa (maybe “heart-warming”). Sensations (maybe “fuzzy”). But there is no actual Santa existing in reality. If I told you to find the self, you can find a thought of self. A feeling of self. Sensations. Those phenomena are real and exists in reality. But can you actually find the self? Isn’t it just as vague and illusive as Santa? It’s a label, illusion, construct, it doesn't exist in reality.

So these thoughts and sensations of a self are completely fine. Them being here is no hindrance to seeing through the illusion of self or Santa. Does this make sense?

Hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling are what they are, just sights, just sounds, nothing wrong there. But body sensations have negative connotations and there is a desire that they were not. Heaviness, pains, itchiness, tention on the belly etc.

Yes, perhaps body sensations can be pleasant or unpleasant. But there is no problem in that. It's the mind/thought world that brings in desire that things were different.

Of course if I look close enough and for long enough (especially in a retreat) those are seen as meaningless molecules of sensation but I can't maintain such concentration in daily life.

No great concentration is needed for seeing through the illusion of self. No sense of ongoing clarity or fiery inquiry is needed to do this. Back to the santa analogy, it just takes a moment to recognize, 'omg, santa is not real'. You can still see him at the mall taking pictures with kids on his lap. But not for a second do you ever re-consider the belief that Santa exists in reality. And seeing or hearing about this fictitious santa figure doesn't matter, it's no problem, b/c it is clearly known that it's not real. Same with the self. All those same sensations, feelings, thoughts are fine, they will still happen, but the joke has been seen through, and the belief in a self can never be picked up again.

There is no you as a separate entity managing and controlling life, Dimos. There is no separate self that is thinking, doing, experiencing, feeling, perceiving, witnessing life. What is your immediate reaction to this statement?

Gunn :)

[DimPal]

Ya, sometimes the image or sense of a self may arise (strongly), other times not. If you look closely, it will change moment to moment, day to day. It's a hoax. Nothing's really there. Keep looking to see for yourself. Please tell me, What does the word 'I' or 'me' point to, here and now?

It points to a point in the head that comes as a result of both visual but especially body sensation orientation. Any sensation I feel is "there" so I try to locate where I am in relation to that. A sensation labeled as leg is there, the upper part of the mouth is there, back of the head is there etc. So this creates the impression that I am in this tiny spot behind the eyes, above the mouth, infront of the back of the head, between the inside of the ears, in an implied center, which I know is not the case in a some way cause it's not locatable or solid.

There is no you as a separate entity managing and controlling life, Dimos. There is no separate self that is thinking, doing, experiencing, feeling, perceiving, witnessing life. What is your immediate reaction to this statement?

My reaction is some kind of frustration, as I've heard and read these words or similar so many times. In a way it is clear: there are experiences and there is no self to be found there. Even the intention to write now is an intention that just pops out of nothing, the words are repeated mentally etc. no self in any of that.

[gmalen]

Dimos,

It points to a point in the head that comes as a result of both visual but especially body sensation orientation. Any sensation I feel is "there" so I try to locate where I am in relation to that. A sensation labeled as leg is there, the upper part of the mouth is there, back of the head is there etc. So this creates the impression that I am in this tiny spot behind the eyes, above the mouth, in front of the back of the head, between the inside of the ears, in an implied center, which I know is not the case in a some way cause it's not locatable or solid.

So at what point does this phenomena, sensation, orientation, etc. turn in to the verification of a separate self? What is telling you that all of this equals a separate self? Can there be all of this, and the experience of knowing, all occurring on its own, completely normal and fine, without verifying the existence of a separate self?

The falling away of the feeling of over here and over there, as well as that bare 'sense of being', are later developments of realization. This first step of crashing the gate is simply recognizing that there is no one standing a part from experience thinking, controlling, choosing, or experiencing. This separate self cannot be found anywhere, not in the mind (thoughts), not in the body. Nothing needs to change or drop away for this to become apparent. Simply looking in direct experience together over the coming weeks, how things already are will become clear.

Try this exercise below. Again, knowing well what teachers and practices you've explored, I know you may have traversed some of this already. Still, it helps me see what fixations are occurring and keeps us on the same page.

----

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Dimos" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Dimos".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "Dimos" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

------

My reaction is some kind of frustration, as I've heard and read these words or similar so many times. In a way it is clear: there are experiences and there is no self to be found there. Even the intention to write now is an intention that just pops out of nothing, the words are repeated mentally etc. no self in any of that.

Whose reaction is it? Who's frustrated? Are you controlling these responses? Where do they come from?

Are you controlling any part of your experience? What isn't happening on automatic right now? Who's inquiring and looking for these answers?

Sit with each of these for a minute or two and then just free write, be honest about what you feel and see. No right or wrong answers.

Blessings,
G

[DimPal]

Were you able to find and feel "Dimos" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

no, only sensations.

Where is it?

Can't exactly locate it.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

Not sure what to answer here, probably something since there are sensations.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

Random blurry buzzing shapes.

Whose reaction is it? Who's frustrated? Are you controlling these responses? Where do they come from?

No ones, it just arises. I don't control those responses but they do subside when looked at just as mixed thoughts and sensations. No idea where they come from.

Are you controlling any part of your experience? What isn't happening on automatic right now? Who's inquiring and looking for these answers?

Feels like i can't give any response, as the words that pop up are also thoughts. It feels like there is some personal will in deciding to write but that's another thought. When I look there is nothing that is not happening on automatic, all that arises just does so. One moment it feels like no one is inquiring and then next obviously I am inquiring. But since these answers are also just thoughts that appear out of nothing, I can't say that there is someone doing it. But it does feel like these are MY thoughts as I am here to see them. haha

also thank you for your patience to stick with this.

Dimos

[gmalen]

Dimos,

also thank you for your patience to stick with this.

Welcome. Enjoying the determination and readiness here. Honesty and direct looking has been great so far.

Were you able to find and feel "Dimos" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
no, only sensations.
Where is it?
Can't exactly locate it.
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
Not sure what to answer here, probably something since there are sensations.
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).
Random blurry buzzing shapes.
Whose reaction is it? Who's frustrated? Are you controlling these responses? Where do they come from?
No ones, it just arises. I don't control those responses but they do subside when looked at just as mixed thoughts and sensations. No idea where they come from.

Yes, things just arising. things being looked at and subsiding, all just happening on automatic. No one is doing the looking, no one is doing the subsiding. Just mixed thoughts and sensations.

Feels like i can't give any response, as the words that pop up are also thoughts.

Great. No response or thought can touch 'this' in what we are speaking of. There may be a subtle narrative/story that's identified with that says 'I'm frustrated, I get this intellectually, but I still just don't get it!' An incredibly normal, natural thought in this process. So impersonal. Happening on automatic. What is being recognized is that 'you' can't get this. 'You' can't get the end of 'you'. There is nothing to know, to learn. Because that would be taking the form of a thought, and no thought can touch what is. So there is a surrender to not-knowing and the belief in the thought world runs dry, that's the only place where the illusion of 'i' exists. It only exists in a thought.

So that narrative will kick in 'I'm frustrated, I get this intellectually but...' Oh, that's just a thought, what's here right now without that thought/story? No thought will ever touch this, the content of every thought is like the imaginary spoon in the earlier exercise. Even the thought that 'you' don't get this is imagined.

The mind thinks there must be a future where X will happen or Y will be gotten rid of. But X is already this and Y is an imagined obstacle, it's not real, it can't be gotten rid of b/c it doesn't exist. Direct experience is here to prove all this, this is already clear, Dimos. There's nothing 'you' have to get or learn. There's just a thought saying 'you' don't get this, which 'you' don't, b/c there is no 'you'.

How does the body / mind respond to this writing? Notice how it all just came out effortlessly, a natural response, you didn't choose how the mind would react to this. It just started churning and throwing out questions, 'ah hah!' moments, disagreements, agreements, all of it. So impersonal. Happening on its own. No separate thinker. Just thoughts. Oh, and then that the thought that says there must be a thinker. Just another thought! Thought thinking itself.

It feels like there is some personal will in deciding to write but that's another thought. When I look there is nothing that is not happening on automatic, all that arises just does so. One moment it feels like no one is inquiring and then next obviously I am inquiring. But since these answers are also just thoughts that appear out of nothing, I can't say that there is someone doing it.

Let's look at this doer with personal will - Get up... walk slowly…is there a controller that controls walking, or is there just walking?"

Let's look at the chooser - If you were ice cream stand, what kind of ice cream would you choose right now: Vanilla, Chocolate, Strawberry, or a mix?

Now look in direct experience: Where was that decision made? Was a 'self' or 'I' needed to make it? Or was the decision just decided?

Just like that decision, the same goes for aspirations, intentions, fulfilling obligations. Aspirations are just aspired. Intentions just intended. Obligations just fulfilled. All by no one. We can't find where these energies arise from, how they are determined, or by whom they originate.

But it does feel like these are MY thoughts as I am here to see them. haha

Who is 'here to see them'? By 'I am here to seem them', it sounds like you are referring to consciousness, awareness, or that sense of knowing. Ponder with me here...

Is there a walker or is walking happening? Is there a reader or is reading happening? Is there a witness or is witnessing happening? There is nothing special about consciousness / awareness / the witness. Is there any personal quality to it? It's as impersonal and natural as walking, eating, pooping. No 'you' to be found.

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?”
Is there a seer separate from the seen?”
Is there a hearer that hears?

Peace,
Gunnnn

[DimPal]

Let's look at this doer with personal will - Get up... walk slowly…is there a controller that controls walking, or is there just walking?"

Some times actions are clearly just happening, like I catch my self clenching my teeth or scratching my leg. With the walking it is not always so clear. It feels like I do the walking because the intention is not accompanied by a thought, so I ask that moment who is doing the walking and nothing is found, still it feels like a doing, when I ask who is making the question its definitely more clear cause its just a thought. Actually now I had some kind of clarity about this, because the decision of stopping is what feeds the illusion of moving but when you do actually stop, the stopping or the redirection of intention was also automatic. hmm

Let's look at the chooser - If you were ice cream stand, what kind of ice cream would you choose right now: Vanilla, Chocolate, Strawberry, or a mix?

Now look in direct experience: Where was that decision made? Was a 'self' or 'I' needed to make it? Or was the decision just decided?

Funny cause i rarely get icecream but today I was at an icecream stand. I saw melon and it was a new taste so I got it, then my friend working there said they also have peach and they have it still only in the back fridge, so I went with it, so pretty clearly there was no decision. There was a thought "aah maybe I want the other taste" but it left as quick as it came.

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?”
Is there a seer separate from the seen?”
Is there a hearer that hears?

The answer to these question is no. I don't know why or how the impression that there is seer is formed.

[gmalen]

Dimos,

Some times actions are clearly just happening, like I catch my self clenching my teeth or scratching my leg. With the walking it is not always so clear.

It's okay that its just sometimes. It will not be all the time. Please don't wait for a time where it is seen 'enough of the time' or 'consistently enough'. That's unnecessary. There's not a 'you' that's controlling when it's seen or isn't seen. Mindfulness or clear seeing just arises. Then mind identification arises. Cool, no good or bad in any of this. Selfing thoughts can still happen, mind identification still occurs, there's nothing wrong with them. But what's really real? That's the question. Keep looking and it will hit Dimos upside the head ;)

It feels like I do the walking because the intention is not accompanied by a thought, so I ask that moment who is doing the walking and nothing is found, still it feels like a doing,

Indeed, there is a doing, but who's is it? Indeed, there is an intention, but who's is it?

, when I ask who is making the question its definitely more clear cause its just a thought. Actually now I had some kind of clarity about this, because the decision of stopping is what feeds the illusion of moving but when you do actually stop, the stopping or the redirection of intention was also automatic. hmm

Yes! It's like where did the decision to stop come from? Who decided that? In the moment, a retro-active thought will say 'I did'. That's the self illusion right there. That very thought when it's believed. Tell me how these thoughts are believed in? What's your experience of this?

Funny cause i rarely get icecream but today I was at an icecream stand. I saw melon and it was a new taste so I got it, then my friend working there said they also have peach and they have it still only in the back fridge, so I went with it, so pretty clearly there was no decision. There was a thought "aah maybe I want the other taste" but it left as quick as it came.

Yes, that pondering thought and the decision spontaneously arose. No thinker brought them up. There may have been the word 'I' that occurred in that thought but that's all it was. A word in a thought. We look for it, and find nothing. The thought arose on its own accord, no thinker put it into action.

Free write a bit here with me, what is this separate self all about, anyway? What's its game? How does it work?

The answer to these question is no. I don't know why or how the impression that there is seer is formed.

Very good,
Gun